[REVIEW] Open Setup Reviews

[Kerset]

Royal imposter

1 Cult Leader

1 Alarmist-jailer King
8 Guards

1 Assasin

Alarmist-jailer King -Each night you may roleblock one person and prevent then from being recruited. -You win, if you eliminate all cultists and prevent assasin from winning

Guard -You know that among {Player 1, Player 2} one of them is King and the other one is Cult Leader . -You don't know which one of this two is the King . -You win, if you eliminate all cultists and prevent assasin from winning.

Cult leader -Each night you may recruit someone. You will only succeed if your target is Guard . -You share PT with other cult members . -You win, if you reach parity with town and prevent assasin from winning.

Recruited cultist -You know the identity of King . -You share PT with other cult members . -You win, if you reach parity with town and prevent assasin from winning.

Assasin -You start as vengeful. -Each night you may attempt to kill someone. -If you target non-recruited Guard , he will survive and you will lose your vengeful modifier. -You win, if you kill either King or Cult Leader before or during your death.

[popsofctown]

You can ruin the conceit of the setup once you realize as a guard you can say "I'm a guard that knows among {Player 1 -" without finishing your sentence. Day one, a guard votes one of the two cantidates, all guards follow suit, the King and Assassin follow suit so they seem like guards. Even in the worst case scenario where you lynch the king first: a guard became a cultist, the Assassin gets one very difficult shot at hitting the Cult Leader (1/8, they can't rule out the follow on voters who want to seem like guards or are, but they can rule out the Guard who cast the first vote). Next, the Cult Leader is lynched day 2 and then it's not highly relevant whether you remove the Assassin for being a kingmaker or not, winning a nightless game with 8 guards against 1 cultist is pretty easy.

I'm not sure what the best fix is. You could delay flips until morning and give the Assassin an action to bring the last victim to life and kill them over again and kill the assassin when they guess this wrong, but that's much more all-in than I would

prefer

to make the Assassin play, I guess?

[Kerset]

Lynching the King counts as killing him. Assassin will instantly win, if King or CL gets lynched before he does.

I guess i should make it clear in wincon.

[popsofctown]

Yeah in standard parlance voting for a lynch is not considered "killing" someone, for example the way some people draft psychologist or detective role PM would ignore lynch participation.

[Jingle]

There is no reason ever to lynch a guard or assassin for town, therefore you just out king/CL D1 and it’s literally a coin flip. CL can never win though, so putting forward any amount of effort is a solid king tell and town should functionally autowin.

[Kerset]

As stated in win condition: Town in order to win need to prevent assassin from winning.
As soon as the King/CL is revealed he will be inevitably killed(with nightkill or vengeful) and game will end in assassin victory.

[popsofctown]

Wait do you not even need to lynch the cult leader to win? I'm just now realizing that is maybe the intent here. You win by lynching all the cultists at any point after you wait for the first cultist to come to exist? That has to be what you meant if lynching the cult leader wins the game for the Assassin.

You have a sample size of 2 of people reading the setup and getting something different from it. It's not helpful that that win condition is -technically- fulfilled at the very start of the game when the first cultist doesn't exist yet.

[popsofctown]

I'm thinking up a fun different metaphor for this game

[popsofctown]

Deathsticks Daryl

1

Deathsticks Dealer Daryl

1

Coughsticks Kingpin

1

De facto Decision Making Drug Regulator

8

Paper Pushing Drug Regulators

Lynches are flavored arrests, players with honest flavor are arrested for unpaid speeding tickets.

Deathsticks Daryl You're Deathsticks Daryl, a chemistry hobbyist who invented a drug in his garage and continually networks to try to find a payoff for it. You start the game vengeful . Each night, you may target a player to tip reporters on an expose. An expose causes a Coughsticks Kingpin , De facto Decision Making Drug Regulator , or a Exgovernment Drug Dealer to subsequently get arrested and leave the game. An expose on a Paper Pushing Drug Regulator will have no effect and furthermore will make you lose vengeful as the newspaper is annoyed enough at you not to cover your inevitable arrest. You win the game and immediately make all other players lose the game when you are still alive and either Coughsticks Kingpin or De facto Decision Making Drug Regulator are out of the game, allowing you to flood the clean market or black market with your Deathsticks.

Coughsticks Kingpin Each night, you may target a player, and if they are a Paper Pushing Drug Regulator they will realize how much more they could be making per year and are recruited to become an Exgovernment Drug Dealer . They will join a PT with you where you can discuss how best to sell Coughsticks in alleyways. You win the game when there as many players in your PT as there are Regulators .

Paper Pushing Drug Regulator You are informed that player X and player Y are Coughsticks Kingpin and De facto Decision Making Drug Regulator , because you saw them at the high stakes tables at the casino, but you're not sure which is which. You win the game when you've arrested at least one Exgovernment Drug Dealer , proving your agency is effective, and you've also arrested every Exgovernment Drug Dealer , so that your agency is not corrupt.

Exgovernment Drug Dealer You've been recruited by player Q, Coughsticks Kingpin , and still remember the opulence of player P, De facto Decision Making Drug Regulator . You have access to a PT with Q and all other Exgovernment Drug Dealers . You win the game when there as many players in your PT as there are Regulators .

De facto Decision Making Drug Regulator You're the one with the real pull and agency power to decide whether Deathsticks belong on the clean market. You use that same power to embezzle your agency's funds a little bit. Each night, you can target another player for a tax audit, if it's either of the other two roles with a night action they become very busy concealing money laundering and are roleblocked . If it is a Paper Pushing Drug Regulator they will receive financial relief when the tax agency actually owes the impoverished bureaucrat money and that will render the Regulator unrecruitable for the night. You win the game when you've arrested at least one Exgovernment Drug Dealer , proving your agency is effective, and you've also arrested every Exgovernment Drug Dealer , so that your agency is not corrupt.

[popsofctown]

I realized during writing this up that denying the cult leader PT access but still letting recruits talk to eachother can keep the cult leader in the dark about who the king is, making it easier for the assassin to continue searching for the cult leader. I think that seems preferable?

[Jingle]

As stated in win condition: Town in order to win need to prevent assassin from winning.
As soon as the King/CL is revealed he will be inevitably killed(with nightkill or vengeful) and game will end in assassin victory.

I was assuming a CL lynch would end the game. If it doesn't, I'm not sure how this is anywhere near balanced anyway, tbh.

As it is, town's win con is lynch assassin in pool of 9 players without revealing the pool, then lynch all of the cultists if they somehow don't immediately lose. After only a few town deaths, cult is incredibly far ahead. If you have a large pool of targets Assassin and town are unlikely to win. If you have a small pool of targets, cult and town are unlikely to win. Anyway you look at it, town is just pretty fucked.

Optimal play for AitP is just shut up and lynch, and that benefits cult WAY more than town.

I'd wager it's functionally unplayable outside of marathons, but tbf I dislike AitP in the first place.

[popsofctown]

AitP hasn't exactly taken the world by storm. Maybe it'd help for the assassin's win not to be exclusive

[Kerset]

Thanks pops for your effort, flavor looks neat. Limited PT would increase odds of failed recruit, so its ok.
You didn't state in your version fact that Daryls win will end this game, which is not obvious for 3rd fraction. His win has to be exclusive. Otherwise 929 will happen. In fact as soon as cult leader name is revealed then town leader can keep blocking him, so there is no need to lynch.
I hoped that town PR would raise town odds to win. If they are weak as they are then my suggestion would be to boost town leader. Replacing alarmist with making townies permanently/periodic unrecruitable.

[Jingle]

Making Assassin only hit the named players and CL lynch a white flag might be enough of a boost, having given this a little more thought.

[popsofctown]

You didn't state in your version fact that Daryls win will end this game, which is not obvious for 3rd fraction. His win has to be exclusive.

You are correct, I edited the post. It was intended to be an exact reflavor of your first draft and not reflect any suggestions for changes. I feel like Jingle might have smarter ideas about maximizing balance and playability compared to me on this one.

[Menalque]

Mountainous Semi-Nightless

• 7 Vanilla Townies
  
  
  2 Mafia Goons
  
  
  
  Mechanics
  • Odd numbered days are nightless. Even numbered days are normal. Mafia wins when they have majority or nothing can stop this from happening. Town wins when all mafia are dead.

Mafia need to get 4 mislynches to win, so one more than normal in a micro, which balances against mountainous being scumsided.

[DrDolittle]

This is just double-day I think:
https://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=Double_Day

[Menalque]

Oh sweet, does that mean it’s already good to run? I checked setups very briefly and didn’t see anything but I guess I wasn’t looking hard enough

[DrDolittle]

mountainous is 11-2 standard and apparently it is still scumsided.
double day is 13-3

I think you need to run at least 9-2 for balance [otherwise your game would be in lylo in day 2 (in the double day language)]

[Jingle]

IIRC, double day is one of the variants where the EV is solved. Can't remember where the thread with the math is, but a little bit of digging in mith's topics should turn it up.

With that said, 7v2 is probably the /most/ balanced of all the micro versions of it, but I doubt it's balanced or it would have a mention on the Double Day page. It's probably fine with a functional named townie though. This is based purely on my supposition that double day and a pseudo IC would be roughly equivalent to a cop and cop 9er being a balanced setup, rather than any attempt to find the EV calculations, so grain of salt etc.

[TrueSoulEnergy]

Neighbourhood of Elements

Neighbourhood of Fire

- 3 Participants

Neighbourhood of Water

- 3 Participants

Neighbourhood of Air

- 1

Town

Neighbourhood of Earth

- 3 Participants

Neighbourhood of Poison

- 3 Participants

Neighbourhood of Electricity

- 3

Mafia

Neighbourhood of Light

- Host PT

Neighbourhood of Darkness

- Dead Chat

10

Town

3

Mafia

Mafia

dose

Not

have Factional Killing.

There is

both

a Day Phase where you can vote to lynch and a Night Phase to discuss in your Neighbourhoods.
Everyone gets a Neighbourhood.
Scum receive 2.

Each Neighbourhood has an ability (except for Light) and everyone may vote for a target to use the ability on.
If there is no majority vote,

nothing happens

.


Neighbourhood Information:

Fire

Each Day Phase, you vote to douse someone in Fire
During the Night Phase, you can vote to ignite the fire or hold the fire.

Water

Each Night Phase you vote to protect someone with water.
Anyone who’s protected cannot be vote blocked or killed by any means except for lynch.

Poison

Each Day Phase you can vote to Poison someone.
That person dies at the end of the following day.

Earth

Each Night Phase you can vote to kill someone.
That person dies at the end of the following night.

Air

Each night Phase, you may vote for a player to join this Neighbourhood.
Anyone in this Neighbourhood has the Vengeful ability.

Electricity

Each Night Phase, You May Vote for a player to remove their Neighbourhood vote until the next time you activate this ability.

Light

The Host PT where Host stuff occurs.
No participants allowed! :p.

Darkness

Each Night Phase, everyone can vote for a player in the neighbourhood to become a Treestump for the following day that cannot vote.

[TrueSoulEnergy]

To clarify.
Mafia will randomly be assigned to a Neighbourhood.
(Like randomly chosen to be part of Water, Poison, Fire and Earth)
Same applies to Town.

[popsofctown]

This seems like a good overall design but needs a slight tweak of the knobs to not be townsided. 50:50 EV for nightless happens at 9:3, this setup gives town an additional townie and an additional clear over that.
Most of the powers can be counted as not being a balance concern, but the dead PT is purely town motivated because the dead PT can make sure not to vote in dead scum's interests and they get the equivalent of dayvigging to decide the game in LyLo where LyLo is usually a third or two fifths controlled by the mafia.
I think this would be good with an innocuous neighborhood added to bump it to 4:11 since 4 player scumteams historically do crazy things and that dead PT ability is similarly crazy.

[TrueSoulEnergy]

This seems like a good overall design but needs a slight tweak of the knobs to not be townsided. 50:50 EV for nightless happens at 9:3, this setup gives town an additional townie and an additional clear over that.
Most of the powers can be counted as not being a balance concern, but the dead PT is purely town motivated because the dead PT can make sure not to vote in dead scum's interests and they get the equivalent of dayvigging to decide the game in LyLo where LyLo is usually a third or two fifths controlled by the mafia.
I think this would be good with an innocuous neighborhood added to bump it to 4:11 since 4 player scumteams historically do crazy things and that dead PT ability is similarly crazy.

2 things.

1) so you just think mafia should be buffed maybe?
2) Aren’t Open Games usually 13 Peeps.

[popsofctown]

Yeah, if you want to keep it at 10:3 I think you would want to empower the mafia somehow, either by allowing some nightkills (not every single night, I think that would scumside it), or some sort of black flag condition (which would be an attractive option due to powerful dead thread ability becoming more and more powerful towards lategame) or some other way.
I would not say "Open games are usually 13 peeps". Open micros are very very common, and open games go beyond thirteen players when that's the best fit for the setup concept, like with FakeGod's dance mafia. But frequently small opens see some very high demand.
"Open games usually have fewer than fourteen players" is definitely true and is a strong argument against making this an 11:4, the Venn diagram for players interested in open setups and players interested in larger games doesn't look great, the dances were more of an exception to the rule.