Newbie 1989 (Game over!)

[72offsuit]

Spoiler:

For the moment, I'll go with VOTE: Elmo TeH AzN: as others have pointed out, she seemed to get unduly flustered by Menalque's SR of her.

I believe it is strange in a line of intrigue involving

Menalque

and

Ico

, that you see

Elmo

as the primary element of suspicion.

What is your position in relation to the

mason

case ?

I didn't actually say that she was my primary suspect, though she definitely is in the top three. I just feel that seeing who might actually vote for her instead of just voicing suspicions might provide some information.

As for the mason claims, it's a very weird scenario. Seems a pretty extreme thing for a baddie to come out of nowhere with a mason claim early on day 1. I guess there's a

chance

that perhaps Menalque is bold enough to try something crazy with the prepared defense "I'd never do that as a baddie, it's too crazy". I guess. Anything's possible in werewolf/mafia. He's already recanted, and now says he's just a VT trying unorthodox measures. As for Ico, him being bad seems ever more improbable to me -- him being a real mason appears to be the reason he reacted so strongly to Menalque's ruse. I find it hard to believe that a baddie or vanilla townie would react so strongly to a day 1 mason claim, so I'm also a bit suspicious of Doobie & Lotus who've left their vote on Ico even after the claim.

I fully agree with your position on the case about Ico's reaction to the claim. This fits perfectly with the situation which

town!Ico

finds herself threatened by an imposter in her role.

I'd say Walrus is stating the obvious here. NAI post.

[72offsuit]

Both !townWalrus and !scumWalrus would post this

[Atarashi Hajimari]

1-for-1ing seems really bad right from the get-go.

This post is actually really bothering me. Just the wording of "seems really bad right now"

1 for 1 ing gives town a guaranteed mafia and is a bad move for mafia. Its great for town. So I don;t understand why Ata has framed it as a negative.

It gives the feeling of a scumslip. It feels like they are in a mafia-frame-of-mind.

So are you intentionally misquoting me here or did you actually not understand my post?

[72offsuit]

@Doobie:
If you thought it was a stupid point, why bring it up?

Because Iconeum's SE status leads me to believe they wouldn't give away their alignment in their first post, but if Ico turns out to be scum, that's exactly what happened. Stupid, because it would be an absolutely horrendous poor play, but still doesn't make what I said incomprehensible.

Sophie

If imscum then i am fakeclaiming

The absolute Optimal play for town power IS to counterclaim and lynh me

The trade IS in town benefit because the town power can effectivelu catch scum this way

I don't understand how you're proven town? I don't know how anything can be proven with not one single action having been taken.

Don't masons have to be extra careful? I mean, it's only a PR until one gets lynched or NK- I'm assuming they can't communicate in a PT after that? Aren't you guaranteed to be killed N1 at the latest after hardclaiming, so the scum can eliminate towns only advantage in a Mason game setup?

I'm not understanding Doobie's insistence here. I don;t really know if its !newb-non-alignment-indicative-Doobie talking here or !scumDoobie.
Still reading Doobie as true neutral null.

[72offsuit]

1-for-1ing seems really bad right from the get-go.

This post is actually really bothering me. Just the wording of "seems really bad right now"

1 for 1 ing gives town a guaranteed mafia and is a bad move for mafia. Its great for town. So I don;t understand why Ata has framed it as a negative.

It gives the feeling of a scumslip. It feels like they are in a mafia-frame-of-mind.

So are you intentionally misquoting me here or did you actually not understand my post?

How am i misquoting?

[72offsuit]

Only thing of note was Atarashi posting a reads list following my vote.
Ata gave me a slight town-vibe in earlier posts of the day, just the tone, moreso than content, but forgetting me in the reads list just felt weird, especially after I had just voted for you.

Almost as though !scum-Ata (the scenario whereby Ata rolled scum alignment), was wondering which category it would be convenient for them to lump me in with. And then im just lumped into the null section. Just seems odd to null read someone who has just voted someone.

What are you even talking about?

My reads list was post 355 (I think), and your vote on mena was, like 224 or something like that. You hadn't really done anything in the game when I posted my list so I forgot you were in the game LOL

Get a slight townie vibe from this post.
The not-knowing the exact post number of their reads list and the reaction feels genuine.

[Atarashi Hajimari]

How am i misquoting?

I mean, let's just look at my full post.

VOTE: mena

Even if ico is lying, 1-for-1ing seems really bad right from the get-go.

1. In a very literal sense, the wording I used was not "seems bad

right now

", hence a misquote.
2. My post is saying that Ico is probably telling the truth about his CC of mena (going back to the mason bit) so we should lynch mena. Even if he was lying, we'd just lynch Ico when mena flipped green and then itd work out anyway. In what way is this negative to town? If it isn't, then how does my phrasing make it seem like a negative?

It's a rhetorical question, btw.

[72offsuit]

Why are we lining up lynches?
And calling a policy lynch?

I'm just trying to understand this logic.

I don't like your attitude of questioning everything we do. It seems like a mindset that is more inclined to emphasize the problem than the solution.

Have to agree with this, does not feel like a pro-town frame of mind.
If Elmo had expressed a specific scum read or stated Clidd's posts were scummy, then it would make sense, but to be instantly disagreeing with someone that one doesnt particularly scumread, seems off.

[Atarashi Hajimari]

@72off

Who do you think should be the lynch today and why?

[72offsuit]

Atarashi Hajimari

, what is your read on

Doobie

now ?

Random question, does it get tiring color coding literally every post you make? I'd get annoyed with trying to keep it up real fast.

To answer your question though, I still dont really like the slot at all, but I'm admittedly having a bit of trouble getting past the newbie-esque feel to her posts to see if its newb-town or newb-scum. I think it's probably the latter, but I'm more confident that eqsy's slot is scum and, if so, doobie is almost certainly the second scum.

Hum, no. I organize myself better with colors.

Maybe

Doobie

needs a second chance. I believe that her vote at

Ico

indicates more confusion than necessarily a biased intention.

Eqsy

, however, seems a good lynch policy.

Are you referring to the no-avi?

[72offsuit]

. No, my vote doesn't work like that. I'll be hammering or putting someone on L-1 today

...why?

To see how the votes would manifest without the influence of my vote.

In our last game, voting early ended up hurting my playstyle in some ways. I plan to fix that now.

Are you referring primarily to Newbie 1986 here or another game?

[72offsuit]

. No, my vote doesn't work like that. I'll be hammering or putting someone on L-1 today

...why?

To see how the votes would manifest without the influence of my vote.

In our last game, voting early ended up hurting my playstyle in some ways. I plan to fix that now.

This post bothers me in so many ways. But it's a play style thing I'm guessing. With not many votes being put and it's a towns biggest asset you want people to sheep behind you and follow your train of thought and put votes down and see how a wagon forms. This just screams scummy like lemme hide under the radar and play town as Puppets.

Why are we lining up lynches?
And calling a policy lynch?

I'm just trying to understand this logic.

I don't like your attitude of questioning everything we do. It seems like a mindset that is more inclined to emphasize the problem than the solution.

Ngl, I think you're barking up the wrong tree here. I agree with you on a personal level, but I think this is more of a meta/playstyle difference rather than alignment difference.

If there's anything mafia has taught me. You don't line up lynches. You assess data and reassess data. I'm sorry I'm not one to follow someone blindly like you are already wanting. Personally I think armchair quarterbacking the town is the exact opposite of what we need to do.
VOTE: clidd

I really hate how these two posts work. I'll be hammering or L-1 so your vote does nothing but you would FOS instead. It's almost like you want to coast to the end.

This is scummy. You talk about being bothered by the post, and saying its a play style thing.... so how is this alignment indicative? Why is this a reason to vote for Clidd?

[72offsuit]

I think elmo is town.

Why do you think Elmo is town?

[72offsuit]

Honestly I'm not getting a ton of scumvibes from anything major so far, I thought the push on Atarashi was overall worth probing but I don't think Atarashi comes off as scummy in the follow up. 72offsuit came to the wagon a little late and I'm curious to hear their answer to my question but I also don't think they're particularly scummy either.

I'll
VOTE: Elmo the AzN

their RVS comment about me feels awkward considering they voted elsewhere, and it's not clear from 55 whether they're read the thread or not. I think townies are slightly more likely to say whether they have or haven't read anything.

Hm, missed this first time round. Have to agree with this read.
+ Scum points to Elmo here

It was more a prod dodge then anything...

Overall, I would argue that pro-dodges are possibly slightly mafia-leaning
But aside from that I would argue that there is a townie prod dodge and a mafia prod-dodge.
Yours seemed like a mafia-esque prod dodge, if thats what in fact it was.

[72offsuit]

How am i misquoting?

I mean, let's just look at my full post.

VOTE: mena

Even if ico is lying, 1-for-1ing seems really bad right from the get-go.

1. In a very literal sense, the wording I used was not "seems bad

right now

", hence a misquote.
2. My post is saying that Ico is probably telling the truth about his CC of mena (going back to the mason bit) so we should lynch mena. Even if he was lying, we'd just lynch Ico when mena flipped green and then itd work out anyway. In what way is this negative to town? If it isn't, then how does my phrasing make it seem like a negative?

It's a rhetorical question, btw.

OK fair enough. Maybe im over-reading here. Which I feel I am given I've been getting townie vibes off you recently

[72offsuit]

@72off

Who do you think should be the lynch today and why?

Right now, my gut is screaming Walrus. More analytically, Elmo or Lotus/Lootz.

[72offsuit]

Organising them up in a firing line, I would gladly have all 3 go down.

[72offsuit]

In the hypothetical situation, if we were at the end of today and I had the hammer and could choose between the 3, I would go for Walrus.

[WizenedWalrus]

In the hypothetical situation, if we were at the end of today and I had the hammer and could choose between the 3, I would go for Walrus.

This is a bit surprising to me, given what's been posted so far. I can understand a measure of suspicion on me, as I haven't been as active as some others, but objectively, I think the case for lynching others is much stronger than for me, so I'm surprised you say you'd go for me first.

Reading back through your ISO, re: 339: you appear to have had a problem with my setup question. There was a specific reason I asked it (which I note was ignored by everyone who responded to me; though they did respond to other portions of the post). I'll provide the details if it becomes relevant.

Re: 340: responded to this already in 382, where I also pointed out that despite developments, your vote was still on Menalque.

That's pretty much all I see that I can respond to, not sure what else I can say.

[clidd]

I have more confidence in my read this time.

I still believe my initial impressions about him are valid, but I am deeply uncomfortable by this recent defeat. I need to be absolutely sure that I am on the right track.

I think you should focus more on this present game than on meta. I think i faked meta decently well last time.
Your read is good this time;)

I was very close to catching you, I don't intend to hesitate this time. Evidently, I will know if my read is correct or not.

[clidd]

I'm having a hard time classifying your reaction. I saw similar behavior in two other games, and both came from the red alignment, but that would contradict the lines of honesty I felt in your text.

Forget what I said about "my presence", it's just my normal tone.

The question is:

why do you show so much resistance to the simple conclusion that Menalque is a mason and is trying to solve the game ? I just need to understand this point correctly to start thinking about it.

Hey Clidd, can you post a link to one of the games you had with elmo that you are referring to here in this post?

These quotes were about resemblance in behavior of other players in past games.

Difficulty to understanding things, lack of collaboration and intense disagreement with me are characteristics that I observed in scums players during several games. Especially, these two:

Mini Normal 2118:

https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=82022 (Insomnia).

Micro 918:

https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=84&t=81962 (Espeonage).

Which were the ones I was mentioning.

[clidd]

Spoiler:

For the moment, I'll go with VOTE: Elmo TeH AzN: as others have pointed out, she seemed to get unduly flustered by Menalque's SR of her.

I believe it is strange in a line of intrigue involving

Menalque

and

Ico

, that you see

Elmo

as the primary element of suspicion.

What is your position in relation to the

mason

case ?

I didn't actually say that she was my primary suspect, though she definitely is in the top three. I just feel that seeing who might actually vote for her instead of just voicing suspicions might provide some information.

As for the mason claims, it's a very weird scenario. Seems a pretty extreme thing for a baddie to come out of nowhere with a mason claim early on day 1. I guess there's a

chance

that perhaps Menalque is bold enough to try something crazy with the prepared defense "I'd never do that as a baddie, it's too crazy". I guess. Anything's possible in werewolf/mafia. He's already recanted, and now says he's just a VT trying unorthodox measures. As for Ico, him being bad seems ever more improbable to me -- him being a real mason appears to be the reason he reacted so strongly to Menalque's ruse. I find it hard to believe that a baddie or vanilla townie would react so strongly to a day 1 mason claim, so I'm also a bit suspicious of Doobie & Lotus who've left their vote on Ico even after the claim.

I fully agree with your position on the case about Ico's reaction to the claim. This fits perfectly with the situation which

town!Ico

finds herself threatened by an imposter in her role.

I'd say Walrus is stating the obvious here. NAI post.

Both !townWalrus and !scumWalrus would post this

Hum, ok. It does not change my agreement with him.

[clidd]

Atarashi Hajimari

, what is your read on

Doobie

now ?

Random question, does it get tiring color coding literally every post you make? I'd get annoyed with trying to keep it up real fast.

To answer your question though, I still dont really like the slot at all, but I'm admittedly having a bit of trouble getting past the newbie-esque feel to her posts to see if its newb-town or newb-scum. I think it's probably the latter, but I'm more confident that eqsy's slot is scum and, if so, doobie is almost certainly the second scum.

Hum, no. I organize myself better with colors.

Maybe

Doobie

needs a second chance. I believe that her vote at

Ico

indicates more confusion than necessarily a biased intention.

Eqsy

, however, seems a good lynch policy.

Are you referring to the no-avi?

Yes, precisely.

[clidd]

. No, my vote doesn't work like that. I'll be hammering or putting someone on L-1 today

...why?

To see how the votes would manifest without the influence of my vote.

In our last game, voting early ended up hurting my playstyle in some ways. I plan to fix that now.

Are you referring primarily to Newbie 1986 here or another game?

Another game.

[clidd]

Prodding WizenedWalrus. This is their first prod.

Sorry for the unexpected absence yesterday. I thought I'd make it back in time to participate last night, but it didn't end up being the case.

I've skimmed through everything, will go back and read more thoroughly here in a bit. I haven't seen anything yet to change my current feelings:

lean bad: elmo, eqsy, doobie
no lean: 72offsuit, clidd
lean good: atarashi, melanque
probably good: Iconeum