[SETUP] Undertale Semi-Open

[popsofctown]

snip

[popsofctown]

omg I think I had a stroke of genius
Neutral Route: There is no N4 kill. The spared players are returned to the game. The mafia chooses two players, choosing at least one mafia if no mafia was spared. Those two players leave the game without flipping.

No investigative effect because it's unclear whether a sacrifice was forced or the mafia was awarded two kills.

I'm not sure if this is better as a solution for 3 spares or as a unified process for resolving neutral no matter how many spares there were. Even though the sorting values comes out the same no matter how many spares there are, intuitively I'm expecting a prize that doesn't scale with the number of correct spares is not going to be a good idea. Old neutral parity copped more people the more spares you had.
Note: This can also be modded to janitor only 1 of the flips.

[Definitely Not Scum]

“At least one mafia” implies more than 2 mafia which every game so far you have not done? Or is this for the small town with 3 scum?

[popsofctown]

“At least one mafia” implies more than 2 mafia which every game so far you have not done? Or is this for the small town with 3 scum?

No, it's just technically if both scum are alive at that point, scum could gamethrow by removing both scum from the game. My mind works really mathematically and says, I have to force them to spare at least 1 mafia, I don't have to prohibit them from sparing two mafias because they won't.
It's probably a better way to write it to say "choosing a mafia player and a town player if mafia was not spared", but I haven't gotten to the "make it pretty" phase with this idea yet.

[popsofctown]

“At least one mafia” implies more than 2 mafia which every game so far you have not done? Or is this for the small town with 3 scum?

No, it's just technically if both scum are alive at that point, scum could gamethrow by removing both scum from the game. My mind works really mathematically and says, I have to force them to spare at least 1 mafia, I don't have to prohibit them from sparing two mafias because they won't.
It's probably a better way to write it to say "choosing a mafia player and a town player if mafia was not spared", but I haven't gotten to the "make it pretty" phase with this idea yet.

I have had a new idea for even spares also.

I'm going to try to write a pretty.
Wait, no, that evens idea doesn't work.
I'm so close.
Maybe.

[popsofctown]

After day 4, New Home is reached. The spare option is lost, Night 4 will be skipped.
Town is awarded a bonus that gets stronger the more players that were spared. Then all spared players are returned to the game.
Bonuses:

• 1 player spared: The spared player is granted lynchproof. The mafia must immediately kill two unspared players.
  
• 2 players spared: All players in the game become lover pairs. If one mafia is dead, the spared players choose a pairing, then the Mafiosi learns of it and chooses a pairing. If both mafia are alive, the pairings are: the spared players, the mafia, and the remaining two players. If all spared players are town, the lover pairings are public but otherwise they are a secret, even to the lovers.
  
• 3 players spared: The mafia immediately removes two players from the game without flipping them and must choose a Mafiosi if no mafia was spared.
  
• 4 players spared: If all spared players are townies, town wins immediately. Otherwise, the town spares an additional player then all unspared players are removed from the game without flipping. All players become Beloved Princesses.

I am pretty sure I am going to spend 999 months figuring out what I truly want
But I promise it will be glorious.

[popsofctown]

Spoiler: En Passant

After day 4, New Home is reached. The spare option is lost, Night 4 will be skipped.
Town is awarded a bonus that gets stronger the more players that were spared. Then all spared players are returned to the game.
Bonuses:

• 1 player spared: The spared player is granted lynchproof. The mafia must immediately kill two unspared players.
  
• 2 players spared: Once both Spare and Fight have each been used, the most recent factional nightkill victim is set aside in case this route is reached. That player has read-only access to the spared PT. If this route is reached, the mafia protect one Mafiosi if any scum was spared, then the set-aside player performs a kill that may target even spared players.
  
• 3 players spared: The mafia immediately removes two players from the game without flipping them and must choose a Mafiosi if no mafia was spared.
  
• 4 players spared: If all spared players are townies, town wins immediately. Otherwise, the town spares an additional player then all unspared players are removed from the game without flipping. All players become Beloved Princesses.

[popsofctown]

I tried to start thinking about route-incentive PRs to fit En Passant but.. I'm not sure I believe in that concept still. At the theory stage I agreed with it. But the first Undertale showed us that there's this huge 1/3rd chance the town accidentally picks the matching route with no input from the PR. And the second undertale showed us that someone can go HARD trying to get town onto the appropriate route... but in the end dayplay mechanics matter way more, with town refusing to go neutral when mastina practically softed Papyrus day 2 then randomly going neutral day3 because chemist was scumreading Nacho.

[popsofctown]

I kind of just want to put in a friendly neighbor and call it a day.

[popsofctown]

I would love some input on En Passant + friendly neighbor.

I think there is something cleverer than friendly neighbor but friendly neighbor works well enough and I think it's "good enough to run". I think some setups I've rejected from myself were possibly "good enough to run". Mulling over En Passant I really feel like it's "good enough to run".

[popsofctown]

Friendly Monster

Each night after a player is killed, if you are unspared, you may visit a player to confirm to that player that you are Town.

[Awoo]

wut if the 1 spared player is mafio

[popsofctown]

If a mafiosi is the single towniest person in the entire game, even if that decision was made in LyLo - 1 they likely "deserve to lose". Both 0 spares and 2 spares don't instant win the game for any one slot, so the town always has the option to pivot out of this characteristic and they'll kick themselves for not taking it if they don't.
I think it's fine.

[popsofctown]

Undertale S Open

2 Mafia Goons

8 Vanilla Townies

1 Town Friendly Neighbor

Each day, town must vote to

Fight

one player (HURT: ) or

Spare

one player (HEAL: ). Selfvoting is allowed. Placing one vote on each option is allowed. The mafia have a standard factional nightkill.

If a player is selected for

Fight

, they are lynched.

If a player is

Spared

, their role is not revealed, and they are temporarily removed from the game thread and put into the Spared PT. They will rejoin the game thread later. Spared players cannot be targeted by the factional nightkill. Town aligned players lose any power roles they had when they are spared, but mafia aligned players maintain scum PT access and can still perform nightkills.

At all times: If both mafia members are

Spared

, mafia wins, and the standard win condition for mafia also applies (town wins when all mafia are eliminated, mafia wins when all town are eliminated).

After day 4,

New Home

is reached. The spare option is permanently lost. Night 4 will be skipped.
Town is awarded a bonus based on the number of players that were spared. All spared players are returned to the game thread after the bonus is resolved.

• 1 player spared: The spared player is granted lynchproof. The mafia must immediately kill two unspared players.
  
• 2 players spared: Once both Spare and Fight have each been used, the most recent factional nightkill victim is set aside in case this bonus is earned. That player has read-only access to the spared PT. If this bonus is earned, the mafia protect one player if mafia was spared, then the set-aside player performs a kill that may target even spared players.
  
• 3 players spared: The mafia immediately removes two players from the game without flipping them and must choose a mafiosi if no mafia was spared.
  
• 4 players spared: If all spared players are townies, town wins immediately. Otherwise, the town spares an additional player then all unspared players are removed from the game without flipping. All players become Beloved Princesses.

[OkaPoka]

ego

[popsofctown]

I almost made a new thread for this, but this is very spiritually similar to S_S's original setup, so it belongs here.
I am trying to scale the setup up to 12p so that an additional scum can be added, so that it's not possible to spare scum and have a 1:8 day 2. It has never happened in the first three runs, but still, that sounds like an unfun gamestate. It's not even like 11:2 mountainous where you can enter a gamestate like that, but you have a redflip.

Undertale Daylight

9 Vanilla Townies

3 Mafia Goons

Each day, town must vote to Fight one player (HURT: ) or Spare one player (HEAL: ). Selfvoting is allowed. Placing one vote on each option is allowed. The mafia have a standard factional nightkill.

If a player is selected for Fight, they are lynched.

If a player is Spared, their alignment is not revealed, and they are temporarily removed from the game thread and put into the Spared PT. They will rejoin the game thread later. Spared players cannot be targeted by the factional nightkill. Spared mafia lose scum PT access until they return to the game thread.

The game has the following win conditions: Town wins immediately if all mafia have left or died, or if there are four spared townies and no spared mafia. Scum wins immediately if two mafia are spared regardless of how many townies are also spared, or if they have eliminated all townies.

The first three players to be spared gain a day ability for the following day.

• 1st spared player: Submit a daykill during the first 50% of the deadline.
  
• 2nd spared player: Target an unspared player to become Monster Kid during the first 50% of the deadline. Monster Kid can't be selected for Spare or Fight, has a publicly revealed alignment, and has no activity requirement as mafia.
  
• 3rd spared player: If it is populated, the spared PT decides the day's lynch by voting in the spared PT while reading the game thread, and if there is no simple majority your vote overrides. You submit a public cop shot after the day's decision is achieved but before it flips.

After day 4, New Home is reached, and the game enters one of three routes based on whether players were spared, fought, or both. Night 4 is skipped. The spare option is removed.

• Pacifist route: if no players were fought, town spares a fifth player. Then all unspared players are removed from the game without flipping, and the spared players are returned to the game thread. All players become Beloved Princesses.
  
• Neutral route: If mafia was spared, each mafia member secretly gains MyLo/LyLo deathproof. Return the spared players to the game thread. A Mafiosi must escape the game.
  
• Genocide route: The game is White Flag. This immediately triggers a town victory if two mafia are already deceased.

[popsofctown]

pls reviews pls

[popsofctown]

Oops.
If three townies are spared and the dayvig doesn't hit scum, mafia get beyond-parity for the day four decision. That's uh, probably not good?
Although, they can't do anything that ends the game and they are still accountable for their behavior. HMMMM

[Kerset]

So there are cool mechanics in case you spare player but nothing in case of killing. You can't just make three routes where one is super boring compared to the others, that is ilusion of choice.

[popsofctown]

Do you have suggestions for making genocide more interesting? It is a problem, no run of the setup has ever seen the town choose genocide, even when s_s had it using a fancy vote based public cop mechanic

[Something_Smart]

It would be funny to say that scum only get to NK after a spare, but as soon as someone is spared the scum get all the NK's they would have gotten before.

That way genocide route is just straight 9:3 nightless, which is balanced, and probably more fun than 9:3 white flag with N4 skipped (though that is also probably balanced).

If you said that in neutral route scum got N4 kills equal to the number of NK's they missed, then in theory the balance would be the same, but I think it doesn't benefit town at all to go neutral after a D1 kill.

In fact, I think that's always true. Neutral route seems objectively worse than genocide route; you get no information, scum get free kills while town is busy sparing people only to bring them back to life, and town loses a lynch due to the beloved princesses, not to mention that genocide has white flag.

Also, what happens in pacifist if town decide not to lynch after New Home? Because they almost certainly will, twice in a row, and I don't see anywhere that the scum NK is compulsive. (It probably should be.)

[popsofctown]

nightless genocide: this sounds like an upgrade because it grants an immediate benefit instead of an abstract benefit and is more distinct from neutral and pacifist

no-lynch in pacifist: The setup doesn't say you can no lynch. My deadline policy has always been "scum secretly choose the day's outcome for you" because philosophically I think the onus to reach consensus should fall on town aligned players. So town is always forced to lynch onto a Beloved Princess and lose on a miss, making it equivalent to the "1 shot to guess who the mafia is" from the second run of the setup. I have wondered if I should go back to the old wording, the goal is to make the mental load and apparent complexity as low as possible, I think there is one other datum of evidence suggesting I should go back so I'll go back to the wording defining it as a special decision.

Neutral: I think you misread the setup and reread part of pacifist along with part of neutral or something. A mafia escapes in neutral, which is quasi EV equivalent to White Flag but actually much weaker since it will be an open wolf. There's no Beloved Princesses in neutral.

[popsofctown]

I go back and forth on compulsive nightkill, sometimes I worry there is some weird odds vs. evens type exploit hiding somewhere in the setup that I didn't think of, but on the other hand this is a high complexity setup and adding the word "compulsive" if it's not necessary is an additional bit of complexity. No scumteam has even briefly considered no killing in the setup so far

[popsofctown]

Oh, about going neutral after a D1 kill: 1-2 players in the third run mounted a strong argument that day 1 should be a spare if any spares were to be had at all, because a greater proportion of the town is town at that point, which is true, because townies keep getting shot each night. So far there's never been a day one kill at all. Since "spare X times, then lynch X" times on its own has lots more axes of decisions than a more vanilla setup, I think it's better not to let the perfect be the enemy of the good and give up on keeping kill->spare routes highly attractive to put as much focus on making all three routes as routes attractive (so, for example, your unleash-the-missing-kills idea seems to make kill-> spare pretty unattractive as far as I can tell, but I don't care about that, I'm giving up on it anyway, so I don't count that dynamic as a knock against it)

[Kerset]

Do you have suggestions for making genocide more interesting? It is a problem, no run of the setup has ever seen the town choose genocide, even when s_s had it using a fancy vote based public cop mechanic

not really