Mini Normal 2125: Chiptune Mafia [The End]

[Ame]

No response to my 751, Taly?

[Yshtola Rhul]

I apologize, I feel a bit out of my depth currently.

I will do my best to catch up soon.

[Taly]

It's just that that was a good portion of what I had posted by the time you made that statement. Those weren't just posts that I cherry picked. The first 8 or so posts I made in the game were pretty in-your-face contentless despite the game state having moved beyond RVS. So it's off to me that you specifically said that I wasn't posting any fluff at the time and makes suspect that the read was based off insincere reasoning.

That my reasoning wasn't insincere? What I felt was truthful even if it wasn't logical.

I don't have a response beyond that.

[popsofctown]

UNVOTE:

I need a reset.
I'm starting my reads from scratch again.
@

everyone

: Let's say that you lose all your memories of what has thus far transpired in this game and all your reads. However, you get to keep one of your reads that you currently have (be it a town read or a scum read), and the reasoning behind it.
Which one would you choose to keep your memory of?

I think I would keep my memory of the small sequence of Luca posts that seemed really town indicative to me. It's not impossible for me to decide the slot is scummy later but in Autumnal Luca stopped towntelling when the posture of the gamestate stopped lending itself easily to opportunities to do so, I would want to keep those on the balance sheet.
I'd discard townreads on eyestott and Paragon that are likely to regenerate themselves.
I'm not confident enough in any of my scumreads for them to be candidates for keeping.

[Ame]

Taly are you still scum reading Para?

[Taly]

I'd discard townreads on eyestott and Paragon that are likely to regenerate themselves.
I'm not confident enough in any of my scumreads for them to be candidates for keeping.

I'd laugh but this isn't funny either.

Taly are you still scum reading Para?

It doesn't make sense to me that he's town, so I guess so.

[Ame]

What do you think of Wisp?

[Ame]

Also why doesn't it make sense that he's town? He's been displaying the most sorting of anyone I feel.

[Taly]

What do you think of Wisp?

My townread of him has faded almost to not existing. He's not present, but I don't think his apathy is AI, both because the wagon progressions and because it's D1. He's less intense than when I last played with him but he also doesn't play mafia nearly as much. I see no agenda with his posting because they don't lead to definite conclusions or have a purpose other than he's just commenting on the game which is excusable pre-D1 flip. He doesn't interest me enough to sort him further for D1.

Also why doesn't it make sense that he's town? He's been displaying the most sorting of anyone I feel.

Read 479 506 516 521 599 747 and tell me how I'm scumreading town.

[Ame]

Burden of good player was a vague reference, of like, holding people to different standards for how much pro-town content they should produce. I think if I posted my iso with a different username with a February 2020 cakeday I wouldn't be wagoned. But maybe I would, I don't know.

This feels more like scum frustration than Town frustration.

This was this the extent of your ISO? Also could you expand on your read of Math?

[popsofctown]

I think I addressed this. You can call it disingenuous and/or shade on my part, but leading others to believe that there's another player in the game by conversing with that imaginary player is fraud. That cannot be dismissed with a hand wave, "Yeah, but look at the good they're doing over here..."

Why is it scum-indicative? That's the important thing you need to focus on. Sure, you can find it disrespectful/improper, but why is it more likely to come from scum rather than town in this case?

It's scummy because it skews reads. This is a zero sum proposition. We have only so many Town players and so many mafia players. Assigning who gets which label is made more difficult if we don't know who the proper players are. I think you know that.

That's antitown, not scummy. It is pretty rare for scum to recognize and antitown potential impact they could have on the game, assess the benefit of inflicting that evil on everyone outweighs the risk to one's own slot (pretty much any action has risk if you rolled scum), then carry it out. I saw volxen do it in getting a town go choose a certain setup in a choose-your-setuppy game and because there wasn't a strong consensus on which one was best, so convincing everyone to make the wrong move didn't seem antitown. Day 4 of Assassin's Mafia I judged everyone alive was enough of a baddie not to recognize it and pushed for a massclaim that wasn't really protown for that dayphase. Also at a couple points in that game's late prodfest I lurked down to everyone else's level of low activity to keep the game's poor momentum poor, that would be the one time where everyone would easily agree the impact was antitown, and I did feel a bit like I was getting away with murder, but an omission of something is a bit easier to hide, the forum software didn't post "pops typed up a reads list after tris's post, then realized she should let this game die and deleted it". I struggled to come up with even qualified examples after playing lots of Mafia lately because it's so very rare and not how scumteams win Mafia games.

The only version of gimmick criticism I've heard all game that resembles validity is the notion I claimed a post restriction to defuse a Paragon lynch (I backspaced main's name sorry in advance when that happens) and by not directly towncasing that helped me manage my associatives in a hypothetical Paragon-pops team. Thats because it's based on something being pro-pops, not just something being antitown.

[Ame]

pops do you have a read on me?

I am less disheartened about Luca's push and its basis than he is.
Lemme catchup hnnnng

Could you rephrase this in a non-cryptic way?

[popsofctown]

I liked Luca's argument for being scummy. I can't remember why he said he didn't believe his own idea anymore but remember feeling unimpressed and I still believe his own idea.

[Ame]

So are you not going to make an effort to figure me out or

[Ame]

Like you keep pretending that you're "confused" about my play but haven't done anything to try and sort me. You're not even bothered ("can't remember") to evaluate why Luca changed his mind. This suggests that you're not actually making an attempt to sort and that your read on me is mere convenience.

[Ame]

@Taly

Regarding your Para Read

479

(1) I don't feel strongly about several votes on Paragon, I don't think his claim makes sense as scum alone, (2) but I'm feeling iffy on pops' reply to it. I am less confident in Paragon town though.

I'm not sure why you linked this one. Line 1 indicates that you think the votes on him are suspicious, correct? Line 2 doesn't have anything to do with Paragon. I also don't consider it buddy indicative in the slightest. It's obvious that pops was joking and not trying to "defend" Para. This reasoning is suspicious from you. The first half of 506 also pertains to this.

omg my niece just did a 'boop'

The second half of 506

Fuzzy, Taco, Rabid's replacement should be the three wagons.

LOL, nope. Townread deleted.

Not only is this NOT all the people who replaced, but why are you placing emphasis on low activity slots / replacements? There's tons of information and accusation to absolve in this thread and your first response is to retreat to slots that have the least impact OR suspected you?

I'm not buying it. Plus, why should there be 3 wagons? Aren't we trying to get a consensus on one?

Also, replacements should be given a fair chance to put their stake - why are you emphasizing a preemptive push there beyond sorting their slot any further.

I don't want to lynch outside of Pops/Paragon/Fuzzy today.

I don't find this approach scummy at all. He was town reading the active players so pressuring the inactive players is a logical course of action. I also prefer to kick inactives in the rump in general. It's a stretch to scum read this. I also don't see how a scum read replacing out should nullify that scum read. I scum read Luca coming into the game as well because I thought dog was scummy. 516 also pertains to this. 521 and 599 don't provide anything additional.

747 is a alright but I don't think it's objective

geee, im definitely caught scum now, how the fuck will i ever recover after 725

hopes and dreams of ever reaching that don clerone scummy have been dashed, time to go back to the newbie queue and self-vote every game to repent my transgressions

If I could add this post to 725, I would.

(1)

Paragon

, the issue with your scumread on me is that it's purely based off tonal gut feelings that can't be defended against. The fact that you're not even pushing your vote on me while you scumread me is because you're positioning yourself, listing reasons to doubt my alignment without actually engaging with me. It's mislynchbaity.

And tbh, false. Nothing you said is AI of me in 725 because your scumread is based on my personality. You took about *every* post I gave emotion into and are saying it's all a generalized reason to why I'm scum.

I've explicitly told you the progression behind my scumread on you.

I've asked you multiple questions about how your reads have changed in respect to your other scumreads.

I've been very clear about how rolefishing or discussing setup spec could be problematic as that negates discussion about alignments early game.

I've even asked you to confirm if nothing was clear.

(2) But you've either responded to half of what I said, didn't respond much at all, or just find reasons to add to why I'm scum to you. This is how I cannot envision you coming from a town mindset because this is both detached AND uncooperative. I don't understand how this can be town.

It's too late for me to just link up eveything from my ISO. I'm not doing other people's work for them, especially when several people are saying they're going to ISO and push reads out but aren't.

Line 1: His read doesn't feel like it's bad faith at all to me. He's clearly being open about it and trying to show where his read is coming from, based on the fact that he made the effort to find the posts that gave him his gut impression and solicited opinions about it. Line 2: What hasn't he responded to? I feel like everything you asked him about he explained.

[Wiisp]

@Taly
Actually I play mafia all the time still, its just my playstyle has constantly changed
my posting wouldnt be any different as a wolf or a town at this point

so is Taly actually being malicious, or are we just voting possible town that's playing the game of mafia
Regardless of Taly's alignment, I am not voting them today anyways

logically speaking, only one wolf is probably in the higher posters, so if we kill someone below 50% of the mean post wise, we probably hit a wolf
and the chance of us hitting town that's just misguided is less

[Taly]

Other than that you want to play mafia with me (which I appreciate and reciprocate), is there another reason you wouldn't vote me this dayphase?

[Wiisp]

Other than that you want to play mafia with me (which I appreciate and reciprocate), is there another reason you wouldn't vote me this dayphase?

not really getting any malicious vibes
feels more like you are trying to figure out everyone
like none of your questions and thoughts feel like filler
given the above, I wouldnt say you are towncore, but townie enough that I wouldnt lynch you

[Aloratom]

@

Tom:

I can understand your PoV a bit better now. Ngl, I was impressed by your play in that other game and have been disappointed by what I’ve seen from you so far. I’ll give you the benefit of the doubt for now that you’re still working your way into the game.

UNVOTE:

I don’t think Paragon is a good lynch for today, so maybe you can try and work with me on someone else? How are you feeling about the Rob/Math slot?

I don't think anything that Robb did was particularly AI. He moved his vote a few places, settling on Pops. Ame's not wrong when she says that once Robb gets locked, he'll death tunnel. He'll even admit that. I have a feeling he was headed in that direction, and I give him credit for dropping the game when he did.

Anyway, NDMath's entry post 519 was somewhat odd in the sense that it looks like he put work into it, but it could have been written better and more thought could have been gone into it. Not giving links to posts makes it difficult to follow trains of thought. He didn't understand my push on Paragon obviously; I'm not sure what he means by me being scared of mechanics. He gives several other surface reads with no basis, and then gives a couple of possible scum trios: paragon/pops/? or fuzzy/rabid/?, but no reasoning behind them.

NDMath was taken in by the Paragon's Conspire con in 565, so I can understand some overall confusion there. And he makes a big push on Paragon in 767 that I'm not sure I completely get.

Perhaps the most striking thing I see is in NDMath's 519 entry post he was Town reading Paragon, and then in 565 he voted Paragon with no explanation other than "Gonna put my vote on paragon for now since I'm uncomfortable putting pops at L-1 at this moment." Those posts are timestamped about 10 hours apart. That's seems odd.

I guess I can see a scum lean here, but I don't know that I'm ready to lynch the slot for being scummy yet. Actually, I'm a bit surprised you want to go after NDMath after your bit about it being easy for scum to get away with tunneling in this situation after their replacing out.

Do you want to lynch this slot because you find it scummy or for analysis?

[Aloratom]

Alo you're talking around what I'm actually saying but I think you're town anyway. On a personal note, I appreciate your writing style. It's pleasing to read.

btw is it 'Alora Tom' or 'Alor Atom' or 'Al or Atom' or just 'Aloratom' or other?

Thank you for the note.

I'm good with any of the above names.

[Aloratom]

I think I addressed this. You can call it disingenuous and/or shade on my part, but leading others to believe that there's another player in the game by conversing with that imaginary player is fraud. That cannot be dismissed with a hand wave, "Yeah, but look at the good they're doing over here..."

Why is it scum-indicative? That's the important thing you need to focus on. Sure, you can find it disrespectful/improper, but why is it more likely to come from scum rather than town in this case?

It's scummy because it skews reads. This is a zero sum proposition. We have only so many Town players and so many mafia players. Assigning who gets which label is made more difficult if we don't know who the proper players are. I think you know that.

That's antitown, not scummy. It is pretty rare for scum to recognize and antitown potential impact they could have on the game, assess the benefit of inflicting that evil on everyone outweighs the risk to one's own slot (pretty much any action has risk if you rolled scum), then carry it out. I saw volxen do it in getting a town go choose a certain setup in a choose-your-setuppy game and because there wasn't a strong consensus on which one was best, so convincing everyone to make the wrong move didn't seem antitown. Day 4 of Assassin's Mafia I judged everyone alive was enough of a baddie not to recognize it and pushed for a massclaim that wasn't really protown for that dayphase. Also at a couple points in that game's late prodfest I lurked down to everyone else's level of low activity to keep the game's poor momentum poor, that would be the one time where everyone would easily agree the impact was antitown, and I did feel a bit like I was getting away with murder, but an omission of something is a bit easier to hide, the forum software didn't post "pops typed up a reads list after tris's post, then realized she should let this game die and deleted it". I struggled to come up with even qualified examples after playing lots of Mafia lately because it's so very rare and not how scumteams win Mafia games.

The only version of gimmick criticism I've heard all game that resembles validity is the notion I claimed a post restriction to defuse a Paragon lynch (I backspaced main's name sorry in advance when that happens) and by not directly towncasing that helped me manage my associatives in a hypothetical Paragon-pops team. Thats because it's based on something being pro-pops, not just something being antitown.

What we're talking about is who is acting as a flim-flam artist in an attempt to meet their win condition, and there's a nuance here, it seems, that's even more distinct. In my eyes, the Conspire con is scummy behavior, while the post-restriction gimmick is simply anti-town. The Conspire con is scummy because it causes the rest of the players to mis-label their reads. It causes people to change their course of action based on intentional misinformation. The post-restriction gimmick simply confuses the game state. If a player acts in both scummy ways and anti-Town ways, that player is scummy.

[TheFuzzylogic99]

VOTE: Pop

There was 1 maybe two post that read town but everything seemed forced. They don't explain why they are voting for a person unless
asked as if they are hoping that they can sneak in a vote. It could be just playstyle but overall I am just getting a scum vibe from them. I kinda want to see where this leads

[Ame]

VOTE: Pop

There was 1 maybe two post that read town but everything seemed forced. They don't explain why they are voting for a person unless
asked as if they are hoping that they can sneak in a vote. It could be just playstyle but overall I am just getting a scum vibe from them. I kinda want to see where this leads

Fuzzy your play in your last game was very different. Can you point out which posts of pops feel forced to you?

[Ame]

Fuzzy your play in your last game was very different.

You were way more interactive/engaged:

Spoiler:

@Kanna
Self voting does not equal scum tell.... also town potato. SHAME

@ Bob
if you are trying to buddy just know if you are scum I will take you down.

@ Flavor leaf
Have I played with you before?

@ Salamence20
Welcome.....

@Flavor
Yeah, I remember you..... I am sure we played some games together. How are you? Great to see you


@ Wimpy
thats makes zero sense but whatever.


Well, I guess its time to get serious.....

Unvote

@ Bob
very much my votes are serious. I tend not to vote unless I believe more likely than not a person is scum.

@SausasaurusRex
what makes you think he is claiming neighborizer and not just posting random pics or it meaning something else?

@Boom
Please dont lurk.....its not cool man

Not sure about the Salamance wagon.... His posts are not great but there nothing that screams scum to me

and ugh
not sure if Nicholai is newb town or newb scum, Right now his posts are not sitting well with me

@ Nicholai
Can you go into more detail why you think Sal is scum. Also how sure are you Sal is scum?

Not sure if i should be happy or sad... I am really letting down the title of Lynchbait King. But to be sure nothing I do in the first few pages of mafia is an indicator 0f my allignment.

Not sure about Sal but I am leaning town.

Jorge kind of feels like he is trying to find a reason to vote Sal which I do not not really like. This has to do with Jorge and not the alignment of Sal.
Want to go back and comb through the responses so far

Vote Nicholai

Looking back what Wimpy said was scummy... however the question was, was it an honest scum slip or town saying something badly or maybe just having a bad mindset.
I am not sure.

However, in 252 - Nicholai seems to not just defend Wimpy but almost completely white knights him. Wimpy could be scum as well but it also as likely he is town and Nicholai is buddying him by defending him

Secondly, the vote seems awful convenient to keep his wagon from taking off. Also it gives him a chance to jump on a popular wagon.