Newbie 1992 | Game Over

[Datisi]

mine

[Datisi]

VOTE: Marashu

don't wanna die

so, you called skit scummy, you called me scummy, you called madu scummy

but when faced with being the wagon

instead of actually trying to case either one of us

you decide to join your counterwagon who you were vocally defending but you apparently nullread.

yeah.

also quoting this for new page, this isn't a towny thought process

we have two days left, not two hours left

there is time to try to get a wagon going on what wu apparently persumes as scum

this is textbook survivalism

[GeneralWu]

VOTE: Marashu

don't wanna die

so, you called skit scummy, you called me scummy, you called madu scummy

but when faced with being the wagon

instead of actually trying to case either one of us

you decide to join your counterwagon who you were vocally defending but you apparently nullread.

yeah.

man
reminds me of my second game on artofproblemsolving.com
because there were like a bunch of people trying to compare me to my first game and reading me very incorrectly
and when I pushed my counterwagon to save myself the mafias were like "nope that's scummy because you don't want to be lynched"

[Datisi]

do you maybe possibly wanna elaborate on that read? perhaps?

[clidd]

Im back, reading soon.

[word321]

I hardly believe anything thats happening. Yet, it is.
GW, u broke your SAFETY NET. I literally said I wouldnt consider u scum if mar flipped town. I dnt understand ur train of thought AT ALL.
I wanted to give it a rest, to think things trough. But I believe it is important to say this kind of things now.
U r LITERALLY changing ur focus from TOWN survaibility to PERSONAL survaibility. Death is a tool for a town. It gives credibility to our words. It may give the team a hint on those that lynched us. It is a tool.
I am RLY inclined to just voting u, but to this I will just give it more time, to think things over. Im actually kind of angry rn, and that is no good.

[Maduisha]

GeneralWu, you voted Marashu because you don't want to die, yet you keep avoiding to answer me. Please, tell us why Datisi and Maduisha are scummy scums that should be voted instead of you or Marashu. I can't understand how do you expect people to believe your SRs aren't garbage if you don't explain your reasoning and instead go on about how people are misunderstanding you because of meta. This is not a meta discussion that we are having, we're asking you to sustain claims that you had in this game, and you keep ignoring any posts that asks you to do so.

[Maduisha]

And no, I don't want your answer to be "I'm town and you're wrong, therefore you're scum".

i would say yes, but i might be tunnelled on a townie that's not bothering to read, not trying to debunk any arguments, that keeps repeating shit cases like a broken record, and who's probably set the world record at misreps per minute, but... ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

yeah you are tunneling on a townie

Nice post, by the way.

[word321]

from what i can tell word thinks clidd is scummy because he is a valuable asset to town and would in theory be good at playing as mafia? and clidd thinks word is town because word reminds clidd of clidd in a game in which clidd was town and word replied to this 'will read', in order to what, help determine his own alignment? i know i've said this before, but this does not 'follow' to me.

Sigh. I may not need only to explain my train of thought, but also context.
My favorite board game is called Diplomacy. It was created in 1959. I wont bother talking about the details; but the spirit of the game is:
"From 7 players, just 1 of them can win. Nobody can win alone."
The whole idea of the game is to create alliances, and eventually stab ppl in the back to ur victory. It needs perception on the general state of the board, and on the local one too.

But the important thing is what a good diplomacy player must be like (according to me, at least).
They must have initiative; to talk with all other players first, to stablish early relations, in a good manner, and be propositive. Maybe he must not propose the first deals, but those they do must have impact.
They must be persuasive, AND logical; u r literally making deals that must be benefitial to both parties. There must be a clear distinction why this deal is benefitial.
They must be aware of the whole board; a petty dispute on the west can make a powerhouse on the East.
This is the basic spirit of the game; there is a lot more to it, of course. I recommend checking it out if it sounds interesting.

Essentially, In a diplomacy game u must seek personal gains AND allow others to have gains too; but your last loyalty is towards urself.
In a Mafia game, u have it inverted; personal gains are irrelevant. U can win even if u die; u win with the team, not with urself.

What im saying is, when I first entered the game, clidd was playing it as a diplomacy player. He was propositive, with propositions with impact; he was persuasive, his views are mostly based on an individual analysis of the players. This dsnt mean he isnt town with his meta, its a valid strategys, but I do think it is a dangerous one.
Now I see it may have been biased, from a wrong impression about the game of mafia itself. I believed (and still believe to some degree) that he was playing a game of Mafia like he was a diplomacy player.
THAT is why i doubted clidd. Not only for some subtle emotional manipulation. Not bc he is a good asset to town.

[Maduisha]

maduisha

your gut is wrong and also you seem scummy

you also seem like a mafia taking advantage of the situation

This one was also really nice.

Please, give me the reasons why you think this is true.

[word321]

Going back to GW:
If u end up being town and mar town, I will be even angrier. As Ive said, the whole point of the game is to lynch scum. Ur actions perfectly could have led to 2 town lynches instead of one, and a good lead on other players. 3 misslynches is a gameover. Pls think things trough.
If u r scum, well, gl next time of course.

[Marashu]

On a ():
Just how many pages an average game has?

Avreage newbie usually around 35-50 pages total
This game seems to be an outlier

Phew - I was worried they were all this long. I clearly don't have as much time as I thought I'd have when I signed up. Anyway.

I really don't like the "I'm voting someone I read as town to survive" argument. Timing-wise, it looks like the case on Wu and Wu's reactions started to shift right around the time skitt had her scheduled VLA and it continues with her on VLA now, so maybe Wu was getting feedback at first from skitt? I'd like to review how views have changed since Friday to see if anyone else had a strange change in posting behaviour. I also want to re-read Wu's defense of me. It makes sense from my POV, but I want to make sure it makes sense from his POV. (I'll have some time to do that this evening, but it's pretty daunting with how many pages this game is already)

@word why would you be approaching the game like diplomacy? I guess it makes sense to watch for people who are trying to pocket others, but to me that seems too similar to trying to figure out who to trust so you can lynch mafia.

[Datisi]

I think your time is better spent discussing who is scummier *now* rather than who maybe had a shit in mindset at the same time skit went V/LA. Because that whole case falls through the floor if skit isn't scum. Like, if you wanna actually case skit, be my guest i guess, but looking for preflip associations probably won't get you far.

Especially now, at 2 days before deadline.

[Datisi]

rather than who maybe had a

shift

in mindset at the same time skit went V/LA.

out of all the typos i could've made on that post.

[Maduisha]

Hello, Marashu. I'm sorry that you're busy with work and stuff, but can you maybe tell us what you think about this? Or why did you ignore these?

First, skitt seems to be posting a lot of unneccessary "I don't knows" (or other variants). Some of them make sense (like when she is saying she doesn't know what someone else is trying to say and is asking for clarification), but even ignoring some of the posts as we were coming out of RVS, there are still quite a few of these already (examples in spoiler tag):

this is a writing/playstyle quirk

I think this is exactly what skitt is doing, so it's interesting that she's calling TRQ out on it. I think her claim to be sitting back in this one could be a sign that she's willing to jump in where people make cases but be ready to back out so it doesn't look bad or gain town cred by appearing moderate and wanting to force out more discussion. As for her case on Dat, that brings us to my third point.

no, i'm sitting back because team mafia took a shit ton of energy out of me and i haven't like completely ~gotten back into mafia ~ yet

trust me, if i wanted to like effort and case people i can, and will. i just don't want to play like that right now
it has nothing to do with my alignment

As she stayed on the train she was pretty non-commital. To me it looked like Mena was applying the pressure while she was staying at arm's distance.

i wasn't being non-commital
that was exactly the reason why i wanted to vote datisi, because he was playing differently than i'd have expected from him, and i wanted to explore that
i wasn't staying at arm's distance, iirc i literally started the push

Fourth, like I addressed before (and kinda related to the above) was the way that skitt was interacting with Dat when the Dat push was happening. At the time I thought it was suspicious, but then I started to doubt myself. Now I'm feeling like I should trust my instincts - I think it's less likely that she was trying to keep from tunneling and more likely that she was trying to gain some early towncred.

i don't get it
what exactly is bothering you about how i was interacting with datisi
i pushed him p strong there
why would i back off there if i was scum?
how was i trying to gain some early towncred?

Plus:

Skitter tried to postpone your lynch to collect a claim, why didn't you mention that at any time ?

I see you're still pushing Skitter, so that's why I'm asking.

[team rocket queen]

Sigh. I may not need only to explain my train of thought, but also context.

this post follows. do you notice any elements of this in the play of other players so far? has anyone else seemed propositive and persuasive in a way that could be indicative of ulterior motives?

also did you gain anything from newbie 1980?

[word321]

Sigh. I may not need only to explain my train of thought, but also context.

this post follows. do you notice any elements of this in the play of other players so far? has anyone else seemed propositive and persuasive in a way that could be indicative of ulterior motives?

also did you gain anything from newbie 1980?

I didnt read the whole game; I only read an Iso from clidd. I guess he meant more about writing style, about quoting posts, and a first aproach to the game, as in perception of mafia and what one finds out suspicious, more than form, but Im not sure. He was as logical, or more, than he is now, and yet since that was his first game, I can see how can that change overtime.
So, that game in particular was a nul for me, but it helped me gain insight on clidds meta. Now, I dnt rly like reading other games for meta, basically for time issues. But it was illustrative.
As for other players, its hard to say. I would say men is pulling a lot of strings. In fact, had gw not slipped and mar flipped town, he would be my main suspect. But its not in the same way as clidd; while clidd analyzes a given situation given the known facts and proposes a point of view at that time, men feels more like he pick targets and searches them with some pressure. So, in a sense, he involves himself more with the game, creating wagons so to speak. Both have in common that they direct the game in some direction, byt EVERY player in a mafia game does that to some degree.

[clidd]

I'm dividing my time with other activities, but I had some considerations when reading the last pages :

1 ~ GW's reactions are strange and potentially

scum indicative

.

2 ~ Marashu's occasional appearances did not change my opinion of his slot.

3 ~ Both are in my lynch pool, but I believe that by the criterion of little participation Marashu is a more valid option. Imagining the

town!Marashi

scenario, it is unlikely that he will be killed overnight, as the mafia may use him as a misslynch later. In lylo this is going to be a headache.

4 ~

Town!Word

intensified absurdly with his last posts.

Town!Maduisha

too. They are my strongest townreads at the moment.

5 ~ In any case, I will be happy if either of these two ->

[Marashu | GW]

are lynched today.

[Marashu]

Plus:

Skitter tried to postpone your lynch to collect a claim, why didn't you mention that at any time ?

Because I don't think it's alignment indicative to put off a fast lynch D1. Town doesn't want to rush a lynch so more info is available, and scum don't want to be caught and trying to rush a lynch is a good way to get caught in later days. Making a show of moderation could be a play to gain towncred I guess but I could also see cautious town players doing that.

Anyway, I should UNVOTE: Skitter for now because a) she's not here to defend herself, b) there is definitely more going on as Dat pointed out, and c) I might have been tunneling a bit too much.

On the subject of Wu:
Is reverse pocketing a thing? Like, where a mafia fights so hard to say that someone is town when their play does not appear town indicative, and when the player flips town, the mafia player can say "I told you so" to avoid suspicion? I'm not unaware of my post history and I'm not unaware that my reads haven't been strong, but I'm trying to figure things out. Wu has been putting a lot of blind trust in me, though - they seemed obvious at the time to me because they were true, but I didn't really wondered why Wu was trying to defend me so hard in the first place.

I don't think Mena is scum because of how he pivoted the wagon away from me. I also don't think Dat/Wu scumpair makes sense - I think Wu flipping mafia would mostly clear Dat. I wouldn't be surprised to see skitt as mafia as I said before. I guess I have a null read on clidd? Like, I still want to suspect him because his posts are very erudite and I think if we don't scrutinize what he says he might just lead the town with his analyses. I think Mad and TRQ are town, and I've been liking word's posts so word is probably town. Scum is probably somewhere in skitt, Wu, Dat (but not Dat/Wu), clidd. I know before I said scum!clidd -> town!Wu, but I'm also thinking that scum!Wu->town!clidd (after an early TL on Wu, I think clidd would have tried to come up with an analysis on why Wu is still town rather than bussing Wu this early).

[Datisi]

Is reverse pocketing a thing? Like, where a mafia fights so hard to say that someone is town when their play does not appear town indicative, and when the player flips town, the mafia player can say "I told you so" to avoid suspicion?

Yes. That's called white knighting.

[GeneralWu]

when I flip green what does that make other people look
(like who becomes townier, who becomes scummier, stuff like that)

also rip me I can never survive my second game on any website with a mafia forum

[GeneralWu]

when i flip green datisi is probably maf btw

[Datisi]

You do know that absolutely nobody is going to take that seriously if you never bother going further with explanations than a single line right?

[GeneralWu]

well nobody's gonna take me seriously even if I give explanations longer than a single line

[Karnage]

mod note

Vote count incoming...