Mini Normal 2128: Normal Mafia - Game Over!

[TheTrollie]

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I find myself considering voting Trollie for having a lynchpool so off-key with mine. However, I think that the case that Trollie is "too open" or "free" with his votes isn't that strong. He's only shown scum reads on the three listed above.
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This is a concise wording for what I was saying at the top of my last post about how I don't really agree with the logic behind Gerain's case on me, just FYI. That could me gerain is scum but I think he's just town who doesn't like when people move their vote around - which is consistent with something he said way back when about para (i quoted that in my last post or the one before that).

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@Trollie

is it pronounced "Trolley" or "Trohlie" ?

Like a choo choo train - though literally 90% of people have interpreted it the other way, I don't know if anyone else has actively asked that in writing on the forum/ in a case where they don't need to say it out loud. appreciated!!

I def should have used an "ey" retrospectively but, oh well. The idea was I liked Ollie better than Olley.

Spoiler:

Allo is town homeboys

I agree he has some townie posts but i think all of his towntells are easily fabricated.

Just because they are easily fabricated doesn't necessarily mean they are. Since you are voting him I assume you think they are fabricated, so what makes you think so that scum!Allo is faking his towntells here?

Correct - since I am voting him my take is that they are fabricated. the town tells are too tryhard for my liking

On first glance I got a good impression on Para and Dany. I liked Para's "wall" even although I don't agree with most of it, but I think I get where he is coming from.

I think I like Allo the least so far. He comes a bit off to me, like he is walking a thin line between everything. He hasn't really tried to sort Para since he voted him and I feel he takes stances just to dismiss them quickly like change from mavs to Para or reading Dany/MT as TvT just to agree with bob's suspicion against MT (at least that's how it came across to me) like as if he doesn't really believe in them.

VOTE: Allomancer

I don't like this at all. Post 121 requires that Skellen has some level of resistance to my conclusion that Allo is scum. If she thinks Allo is scum then she also thinks the potential towntells are either not towntells or are fabricated. I don't see her posting 121 and then joining me in 122.

Trollie, I think your case on Skellen is disingenuous. It's apparent that her reasons for finding Allo suspicious in 122 were different than the reasons she questioned in 121.

The case is that for Skellen to say "what makes you think so that scumAllo is faking his towntells here?"

has only 1 good response - that Allo is scum

. By definition, if you think someone is faking townie posts it is because you think they are scum.

This is incorrect. To answer that you believe the towntells are fake because he is scum is circular reasoning, and not what she was looking for. She wanted you to explain what

about his posts

gave you the impression that they were fake.

I'm apparently doing a really bad job at explaining the case against Skellen - but for the like 3rd time -

this is a strawman.

I never questioned Skellen's case against Allo - What was scummy about skellen was that there is only one reason to believe that someone is faking townie posts, and that reason is that the person is scum. Town don't "fake" town posts. So what was scummy of skellen's post was that if she was reading allo as scum (and according to her vote, she was), then it makes no sense to ask me why I thought the towntells were faked. If you were reading allo as scum, YOU ALSO HAD TO READ THE TOWNIE POSTS AS FAKED - BY DEFINITION.

U say that is circular reasoning - it isnt. Town don't fake town posts. They can't. So if I thought Allo was faking townie posts, it is BECAUSE I was scum-reading him. And then when another player goes "oh look at that allo is so town bc in post #whatever he said "WHATEVER" and bro only town would say that" - OBVIOUSLY, anyone SCUMREADING allo would say "no way - "WHATEVER" is such a fake townie post"

***THIS IS THE IMPORTANT PART:

If Skell didn't also think "nah man, "WHATEVER" isn't really a towntell that could be someone tryharding to be town," THEN, Skell PROBABLY WASN'T ACTUALLY SCUMREADING ALLO because IN ORDER TO SCUMREAD someone, you have to also believe that anyone townreading them is incorrect, and that those "townie" posts are just feigned attempts.

***

I stand by this argument - it actually makes more and more sense every time I make it (despite me not being able to properly explain it apparently). And tbh I don't think Madoka does a great job convincing me or defending the town-ness of that slot so I am gonna go back and

VOTE: Madoka

Does that make sense to you, Trollie?

I don't know which of your posts this refers to but - no.

[Morning Tweet]

i knew I was pronouncing it right!

VOTE: Madoka

[Madoka]

Oh, I see where you're getting hung up. You're misinterpreting the meaning of towntell (or rather Skellen misinterpreted your use). She meant towntell as in

something designed specifically to look like a town slip

. So she was asking you what you thought was designed to look like a town slip. She wasn't scum reading Allo because she felt his posts were designed to look like a town slips. She was scumreading him because she felt he was scummy (fence-sitting and hopping).

Your interpretation of what she meant by towntell is

something that comes from town

. From that perspective, I can see how you could perceive her suspicions as contradictory. Again, however, that is not what she was insinuating. Based on what she thought you meant by towntell, she was asking what you felt were deliberate acts of Allo to look townie. And since she perceived his actions as scummy, not townie, it makes sense that your reasoning stood out to her.

Does that clear it up?

[Madoka]

Any big disagreement with my list or something anyone want to discuss

I can't tell if I love or hate this post

What do you think is to love or hate about it?

[TheTrollie]

Oh, I see where you're getting hung up. You're misinterpreting the meaning of towntell (or rather Skellen misinterpreted your use). She meant towntell as in

something designed specifically to look like a town slip

. So she was asking you what you thought was designed to look like a town slip. She wasn't scum reading Allo because she felt his posts were designed to look like a town slips. She was scumreading him because she felt he was scummy (fence-sitting and hopping).

Your interpretation of what she meant by towntell is

something that comes from town

. From that perspective, I can see how you could perceive her suspicions as contradictory. Again, however, that is not what she was insinuating. Based on what she thought you meant by towntell, she was asking what you felt were deliberate acts of Allo to look townie. And since she perceived his actions as scummy, not townie, it makes sense that your reasoning stood out to her.

Does that clear it up?

you have no idea wtf she meant.

this is the scummiest post from this slot yet.

[Madoka]

I don't but I think my interpretation is correct. I think if you reread your interaction with her with that in mind, it will become clear that she was asking "how does a towntell being fabricated mean that the person is scum?" Simply because something doesn't make someone town, it doesn't mean they are scum. This is really apparent to me. You also have to take into account that she is a newbie and things like this are more likely to stick out to her. I see what you mean by her not making the logical leap that you were scumreading Allo for other reasons, but she simply didn't because that's not what you said.

[Madoka]

town tell being fabricatable*

[Madoka]

Also is there a reason you're yelling? I'm not trying to provoke you. I think this is a genuine misunderstanding.

[BBmolla]

Why do you think iDanyboy is scum and voted him? His list and his responses to defending his list seemed pretty town to me.

Hi whole read on me is awful and nonsense and he seems scummier than anyone else in the game

Basically just that

I saw iDanyboy’s post 349 as a foil to your list in 284. The two list match up closely with the exception of Paragon and Allomancer. So I don’t understand this post I’ve quoted unless those two are what you mean. (iDanyboy list has a gray area for “unsure” whereas your is more black and white with scum or not.)

In your post 290, you admittedly claim you made yours up for content. So I don’t understand the attack on iDanyboy. Either your list matches up well and you’re throwing shade at him for a Paragon and Allomancer disagreement OR cause iDanyboy reads you as scum (which wasn’t the first time someone has posted suspecting you of such.) And if your list is made up and fake for the optics of posting content, then you’re providing even less to the game. Morning Tweet’s preceding post to the one being quoted suggest that iDanyboy’s list being effort-posting but when pressed on his list, iDanyboy is able to point to certain posts and reads meaning he did at least some research in throwing together his list and defending it. Your list (if it is fake for the sake of content) displays little to no effort of scum hunting. And if your list isn’t fabricated and those are your reads, you’re now throwing shade at iDanyboy for a difference of Paragon and Allomancer or just simply cause he suspected you and voted you. Either way, I don’t understand your vote on iDanyboy. I just see this as extremely defensive when you OMGUS the first serious vote on you. (Trollie had an rvs vote on you, but as far as I can tell, iDanyboy’s vote was the first one on you. Please correct me if I’m wrong.)

My reasoning is just because

[BBmolla]

Man there’s a lot here I don’t know what to think

I also hated Madokas post where they explained the reasoning for their replace in

But I could also see town explaining it in response to trying to read Trollie?

Meh

[SirCakez]

Prodding Cat Scratch Fever

[SirCakez]

Votecount 1.9

Espressojet (3) - Espressojet, Paragon, iDanyboy
bob3141 (2) - Cat Scratch Fever, Allomancer
Madoka (2) - TheTrollie, Morning Tweet
iDanyboy (1) - BBmolla
TheTrollie (1) - geraintm

Not voting (4) - Bambi Jay, bob3141, Madoka, mavsfan41

(expired on 2020-04-06 10:34:00) remain until day end

With 13 players alive, it takes 7 to reach a majority.

[Madoka]

Man there’s a lot here I don’t know what to think

I also hated Madokas post where they explained the reasoning for their replace in

But I could also see town explaining it in response to trying to read Trollie?

Meh

What don't you like about it?

And yes, that's exactly right. I think it's as important to be read correctly as it is to correctly read other people. Trollie is either seriously misinterpreting or is pushing in bad faith. I'm starting to think the latter looking again at 404.

you have no idea wtf she meant.

this is the scummiest post from this slot yet.

Why is your interpretation more valid than mine? This is what I mean by pushing in bad faith. Even though both interpretations are possible, you're choosing the negative interpretation over giving my slot the benefit of the doubt, despite it being more reasonable.

[TheTrollie]

One person asking me how to pronounce my name, another asking me to stop screaming.

Is this some new magic tech? Can you hear me out there?!

[BBmolla]

What don't you like about it?

When you replace in and you are town, what is the first thing you do?

When you replace in and you are scum, what is the first thing you do?

It varies obviously, but traditionally as scum you reread your predecessor first thing to see how screwed you are from their play. If by doing this you think you're notably screwed, you might offer reasons for what they said to try to save your slot.

So it's just figuring out your path of getting to the point where you're explaining your predecessor, does it come from you rereading him to determine how screwed you are, or being town and looking at Trollie, seeing he scumread your slot, finding out why, etc.

[TheTrollie]

^ding ding ding^

[Cat Scratch Fever]

Sorry about the prod. Reading now

[Espressojet]

What do you think it is, BB?

[Cat Scratch Fever]

Not currently looking for scum on my wagon. My wagon anlysis was putting an upper limit on the number of scum on it. As it certainly not behaving like a wagon with 2 or more scum on it. And if there is one scum on it then it woudl be vote parkign and not serous effort to actualy push a mislynch through

So far i feel that scum are holding back when it comes to votes.

And there is reasonable chance that this is one of those wagons thats all town. Scum driven wagons are sticky. town driven wagons are flaky.

Your wagon at its height was {me, MT, Allo, Paragon} <-- I townread Paragon the least on this list, but I also don't actively scumread him

I think the fact that your wagon stalled at 4 votes is pretty suspicious, and likely points to you being scum or scum on the wagon already

But an all town wagon on town and no scum jumping to take advantage is kinda unlikely unless there's like an entire lurker/passive scumteam

[Cat Scratch Fever]

How far caught up are you Madoka

[Cat Scratch Fever]

I think 400 is pretty towny

[SirCakez]

Paragon has requested replacement. Searching...

[Allomancer]

I like what Madoka is saying, and I had townread Skellen as well. I'm not entirely convinced of the case on Trollie, though, but I am slightly leaning scum on him.

A lot of BB's posts feel scummy, but I don't think scum claims Mason, especially not so early. I'm tempted to think he's just lazy.

[Allomancer]

I'd like to see more content from espressojet. I'm having trouble forming a read on him.

[Madoka]

One person asking me how to pronounce my name, another asking me to stop screaming.

Is this some new magic tech? Can you hear me out there?!

I mean do you think you would have said "you have no idea what the **** she meant" to a stranger if playing in real life? Speaking through media such as internet forums tends to desensitize us to the fact that the receivers are people (who are by default deserving of respect and dignity).

What don't you like about it?

When you replace in and you are town, what is the first thing you do?

When you replace in and you are scum, what is the first thing you do?

It varies obviously, but traditionally as scum you reread your predecessor first thing to see how screwed you are from their play. If by doing this you think you're notably screwed, you might offer reasons for what they said to try to save your slot.

So it's just figuring out your path of getting to the point where you're explaining your predecessor, does it come from you rereading him to determine how screwed you are, or being town and looking at Trollie, seeing he scumread your slot, finding out why, etc.

Interesting, you're really not far off. I always read the player that I may replace

before

I decide to replace in because I want to minimize the chance that I replace into a scum slot. It was apparent to me before I replaced in that Trollie was misconstruing Skellen's question (not necessarily intentionally). Trollie's 404 and lack of response to my following clarifications is different than what I expected based on his response in 384 to gera's push. His repose there was objective and he immediately dropped the point he was going to bring up when faced with contradictory information regarding gera's perspective. Here I feel I've adequately described where he is getting it wrong with regard to Skellen's question but he is sidestepping the points I'm making, and in contrast to his objective tone with gara, is speaking rather aggressively/matter-of-factly, which leads me to suspect that the push is in bad faith.

Cat, I'm all caught up.

Espresso, can you answer my question from before?