Mini Normal 2128: Normal Mafia - Game Over!

[TheTrollie]

I give u all my respect and dignity. I said "wtf" not "what the fuck" - its internet lingo, not me being abrasive.

That said, I apologize for upsetting you.

[geraintm]

I want to pose a couple questions

gone through selectively and tried to pick out the whole series of posts that just give me the impression they are happy to move votes around. Feels flippy to me, more so than anyone else I've gone through and looked at.

a vote on your feels much better than where I had it, still as my random vote. I didn't pluck my vote from nowhere.....

Was this directed at Trollie's 384?

?

yeah, tried to show when I thought he was flipping around

[Cat Scratch Fever]

Do you have any thoughts on anyone in the game besides trollie, Madoka?

[iDanyboy]

I stand by this argument - it actually makes more and more sense every time I make it (despite me not being able to properly explain it apparently).

I agree with Madoka here.

What happened was you voted Allo because it's town tell's are easily fabricated. Skellen ask's you how you know they are fabricated and agrees that it's scummy but for a different reason than you.
Let's say Allo's flips scums and Skellen voted it because of X. Then she reads your reasoning for voting it as Y, and Y is bad reasoning than it is likely you two were bussing. This is what I got from here post, and I agree with it.

[mavsfan41]

So my post 364 was actual meant to be a vote on BBmola. That’s why his name was bolded but I forgot “vote.”

Vote: BBmola

Farewell Paragon. I’ll miss your posting, especially in the early game. Found it pretty funny.

Until Cat Scratch Fever was prodded, I actually forgot they were part of this game which is weird cause I remember responding to her several times over the whole iDanyboy exchange. Does anyone have a read on her? ISO’ing her, she looks lurking scum. Questions and statements without much else. This pings me as it is an easy out for someone to post and push the game without being analyzed themselves as they’ve provided little to none of their own reasoning. It’s easy to suspect someone with “I think they’re scum” but the reasoning of why is more important.

I think Trollie is town. He’s trying to figure the game out and his reads are all consistency based. I agree with the premise but perhaps not the conclusion.

@Trollie: I think town needs to be flexible with their suspicions and this may lead to some inconsistencies in certain players they suspect and vote for at any given time. Why do you think Skellen’s inconsistency in posts 121 and 122 are indicative of scum? I’m almost there but I fear reading inconsistencies can, at times, provide false positives. I didn’t read her Allomancer vote and push as scum trying for a mislynch or start a wagon. In the vote count in 107, there were better wagon alternatives to jump on and easier cases to be made vs voting Allomancer in hopes of starting a wagon for a mislynch. Thoughts?

[Morning Tweet]

Why do you not buy BB's claim @mav

[mavsfan41]

Why do you not buy BB's claim @mav

Cause it came too early and only after two votes. Personally I HATE claims and asking for claims. Claiming disproportionately favors scum. Knowing another player’s power role does almost nothing for town but LOTS for scum. So I’m always suspicious of claims in general.
As for his claim of miller, people were suspicious of him and voted him and it took till his claim of miller for people to back off aka he defused his wagon with a claim. As I understand the miller role other millers know who they all are. Is your communication with other people anonymous in the miller channel? If this is the case, then I’ll reconsider and my skepticism over his claim is my misunderstanding of the role. If not and players KNOW he’s town, why didn’t someone who is aware he’s town not jump in and why was he forced to claim in order to stop his wagon?

[Morning Tweet]

He did not claim Miller, he claimed Mason. Mason is a townie that shares a PT with another Mason, and it's confirmed to each other that they're both town. I could see BB doing this as lazy scum and lazy town, but I don't think he'd claim Mason as scum. He would have to set one of his scum partners as the other Mason, which could backfire hard

[mavsfan41]

He did not claim Miller, he claimed Mason. Mason is a townie that shares a PT with another Mason, and it's confirmed to each other that they're both town. I could see BB doing this as lazy scum and lazy town, but I don't think he'd claim Mason as scum. He would have to set one of his scum partners as the other Mason, which could backfire hard

I was just about to correct that to mason. (He fake claimed miller.) So if BBmola IS mason, does he KNOW who the other mason is or is the other mason anonymous? If they’re known, why did he claim so early (after only two votes)? That’s what I’m not quite sure if the other mason IS known.

[Morning Tweet]

He did not claim Miller, he claimed Mason. Mason is a townie that shares a PT with another Mason, and it's confirmed to each other that they're both town. I could see BB doing this as lazy scum and lazy town, but I don't think he'd claim Mason as scum. He would have to set one of his scum partners as the other Mason, which could backfire hard

If they’re known, why did he claim so early (after only two votes).

lazy

the other mason is not outted and it'd be optimal not to discuss that individual

[mavsfan41]

As I’m clearly misunderstanding the mason role:

Unvote: BBmola

Claiming with little pressure still strikes me as weird.
@BBmola: was it your decision to full claim at the time you did or did you discuss this?

[TheTrollie]

I stand by this argument - it actually makes more and more sense every time I make it (despite me not being able to properly explain it apparently).

I agree with Madoka here.

What happened was you voted Allo because it's town tell's are easily fabricated. Skellen ask's you how you know they are fabricated and agrees that it's scummy but for a different reason than you.
Let's say Allo's flips scums and Skellen voted it because of X. Then she reads your reasoning for voting it as Y, and Y is bad reasoning than it is likely you two were bussing. This is what I got from here post, and I agree with it.

I get this. But the thing is - I wasn't voting allo

because

I thought he was faking towntells. That is not only not consistent with what I said - it is impossible. You cannot believe someone is faking townie posts without scumreading them.

I voted allo because I thought he was scum, and then when BB (or someone can't remember) said "allo is town bc he's got all these townie posts," my response was to say that the posts he felt were "town-Allo" weren't the type of townie posts that struck me as especially hard for scum-Allo to fake.

So then when Skell comes on and plays catchup - my case is that she - being scum, saw the strawman argument to vote me that iDannyboy is positing here. Which is fine - that isn't inherently scum motivated. BUT, if Skell was town who truly was reading Allo as scum (as she claimed), I don't buy that she would have thought to make the argument you are making here iDanny. Because if Skell was town with a legit scumread on Allo, then when she got to my post that says "yeah Allo has some townie looking posts but they don't strike me as especially hard to fake," TOWN-Skell would have to have AGREED with that completely. Because if she was scumreading allo, then she has to also agree that any townie looking posts are fabricated from scum-allo. The reason I think that slot is scum is becuase scum-Skell, with a fake-scumread on Allo would know Allo is town, and then pounce on my post saying "What makes you think Allo is faking"

I really think that only Scum-Skell could have interpreted my post the same way you are, iDanny. I don't buy that town-skell would make that same misinterpretation if she was scumreading Allo.

[TheTrollie]

@Trollie: I think town needs to be flexible with their suspicions and this may lead to some inconsistencies in certain players they suspect and vote for at any given time. Why do you think Skellen’s inconsistency in posts 121 and 122 are indicative of scum? I’m almost there but I fear reading inconsistencies can, at times, provide false positives. I didn’t read her Allomancer vote and push as scum trying for a mislynch or start a wagon. In the vote count in 107, there were better wagon alternatives to jump on and easier cases to be made vs voting Allomancer in hopes of starting a wagon for a mislynch. Thoughts?

To the first part of your question - I hope my post just above this helps answer that question? the short version is: The train of thought that is "trollie's argument for why allo is scum = allo is faking town" is a misunderstanding that I do not believe is consistent with a player who is thinking "Allo = scum"

I agree inconsistencies aren't always great scum detectors. I also dont love Skells response to my case, nor do i love the entrance of Madoka who feels she needs to explain her way out of an inconsistency that she cannot understand. Town Madoka would probably have said either "look I dont get Trollie's beef with skell but whatever - here are my reads" or would have said "Yeah, dude, I don't understand skell's rationale either, but here's what I think of the game." I think its likely that the reaction we got - "let me explain to you what the other person who use to be in my slot was thinking" - comes from scum.

I could be wrong - but its just my strongest read right now and it sounds like some other players are seeing what I'm seeing so I am feeling pretty good about it.

On your second question - I actually think Allo was a good vote for scum entering the game at that point. the MT/bob shit was getting really tricky, and there was so much attention going on there - simultaneously, players like me made it clear we didn't want any part in it. There's definitely a scum strat in entering the game and pushing the bob wagon through to completion, but if I'm right in thinking that the cat scratch, bob, MT, ect. kerfuffle was mostly town v. town - then scum entering the game and pushing that early D1 wagon through to completion (or really just getting in that mess at all even if it was to vote for someone else involved) could have been risky.

Latching onto someone who was actively talking about the interaction but wasn't at the center of the situation and already had a vote on them (aka allo) would have been a smart move from scum.

Maybe that's a crazy tale - but my point is that it's very possible for there to have been scum motivation for voting Allo at that point.

[Allomancer]

VOTE: mavsfan41

I really don't like the push on BB. Feels like he's trying to uncover the other mason in the game, which scum would want to do.

[mavsfan41]

I am NOT asking for the identity of the other mason and in fact, I’d strongly suggest he do NOT reveal that information. I want to know if a conversation happened about whether or not he should claim (a simple yes or no is sufficient) and if yes, did he first propose the idea or was it suggested to him. My post of 431 already declared how I HATE claims. They disproportionately help scum. No one should claim. No one should request a full claim from someone else. In my experiences, players asking for a full claim at L-1 is high percentage scum who are role fishing. That’s just my philosophy. A full claim is a last resort type action to take (if at all) and not something to do with two votes.

[bob3141]

I dont think scum actualy push a mason claim. Thst something ive realy only seen town do.

[Cat Scratch Fever]

Until Cat Scratch Fever was prodded, I actually forgot they were part of this game which is weird cause I remember responding to her several times over the whole iDanyboy exchange. Does anyone have a read on her? ISO’ing her, she looks lurking scum. Questions and statements without much else. This pings me as it is an easy out for someone to post and push the game without being analyzed themselves as they’ve provided little to none of their own reasoning. It’s easy to suspect someone with “I think they’re scum” but the reasoning of why is more important.

My questions have a purpose behind them

For instance, replacing into a game and only commenting on one thing and not giving reads on any other player is scummy

That's why I asked how caught up Madoka is

[Cat Scratch Fever]

pushing mason claims is anti town, but I agree that mavs is still prob town

[Cat Scratch Fever]

I don't really have any strong scumreads atm but I'm down to try this

VOTE: Madoka

[bob3141]

Madoka whats you view on my wagon that formed.

Its strange you woudl say your all caught up with out even a mention of those events. As i cant see my name in you iso atleast once.

All i can see is that your largly just pushing back against the slots that are pushing you.



Madoka why would you think scum woudl avoid pushign my wagon. as sicne it never got over 4 at the very most one scum could of been on it. as if 2 scum are pushing the same wagon it moves.

[Madoka]

I give u all my respect and dignity. I said "wtf" not "what the fuck" - its internet lingo, not me being abrasive.

That said, I apologize for upsetting you.

OK, thank you

Do you have any thoughts on anyone in the game besides trollie, Madoka?

Yes, is there anyone in particular you would like my opinion of?

Madoka why would you think scum woudl avoid pushign my wagon. as sicne it never got over 4 at the very most one scum could of been on it. as if 2 scum are pushing the same wagon it moves.

I don't think there is much to extract from an early day wagon until we have later data to compare it to. In general, however, I think wagon resistance is indicative that the player is red. Again this is more important later in the day because early wagons have low lynch potential (since there is little to go on and it's optimal to use the Day time) and so scum aren't likely in the mindset of having to press for their preferred lynch.

Of the people on your wagon, I think Paragon's voting pattern is the most suspicious. He went from Bob > Allo > Dany; stated you three were his prime suspects in 88; switched to allo in 93 in preference to dany; switched to Bob > Allo > Bob; changed his mind on Allo and Bob but never went back to Dany despite reiterating his scum read in 242. It reads more as showmanship than legitimate scumhunting, particularly because he dropped persuing Dany, which I think would be the natural next step for town!Para after changing his mind on Bob/Allo.

[SirCakez]

Titus replaces Paragon!

[SirCakez]

bump

[SirCakez]

bump

[SirCakez]

bump