i thought what you meant by the compromise part was that hiraki was bargaining with tomorrow's lynch, not the agreeing to lynch not his preferred lynch today. i misunderstood.
In post 339, bugspray wrote:
i feel like im missing a few connections and probably arent' respresenting my ideas on relationships in this game peroperly...
going to make a version 2 with arrows and shit after dinner
that sounds like begging the question with extra steps
like if im assuming p and then find a q and say p->q therefore q->p i THInk??
am i understanding this shit right
MY PRONOUNS ARE THEY/THEM
do not assume my posts follow coherency they do not imagine that every time i post i put half of my knowledge into a clone and then the clone murders me
I will straight up disregard all reason if you have a PR dream again. You can come back and be like, “I dreamt that Locke is a N2 Bulletproof Multitasking Cop and Self-Targeting Doctor,” and I will go, “Okay, Locke kill it is then.”
i don't like how you're trying to pre-empt my slight scum impression on you by making it so that it's "scummy" to vote you. That's a level of OMGUS that makes more sense coming from scum.
i don't like typing, and i'd prefer if i'm not hyperactive this game. but i think i have no choice.
In post 172, humaneatingmonkey wrote:your trying to pre-empt a vote from me by saying i'd be scum if i vote you is AI.
i'm now thinking why you had to make me look threatening and intimidating. it could be that your buddies are Datisi or bugspray, and you don't like how they're getting attention.
did i solve it? if i did, please quote this post on end game.
In post 176, humaneatingmonkey wrote:it's either he's diverting attention from a wagon (bugspray), or defending the person i'm trying to start a wagon on (Datisi)
"Sorry if my questions bother you, but you keep saying things that don't make sense."
Even my language? Your questions have answers now. What's on your mind?
I got some townie vibes from these posts.
I don’t agree with his sr on Hiraki, but I can see where he’s coming from feeling that he’s being setup to look scummy if he votes him. His attempt at solving by linking him to Bugs/Datisi also feels townie as I can see why he might think that.
Not a super strong read by any stretch, but I’m much happier lynching Bugs today. Until I see that flip my reads are going to be skewed a bit.
Hmm, so the paranoia over being step up by Hiraki makes him seem town.
That's actually a decent point. It still feels unnatural to me to keep bringing focus and hedging on hiraki, but I can somewhat see that making sense if HEM was hyper paranoid (though that still doesn't fully explain why he didnt just vote hiraki sooner in that exchange)
I will have to think this over once HEM provides more posts.
In post 316, HoldenGolden wrote:Ok about the colors? Dont know how my conditions impacting my ability to read font colors on this site impacts the game but sure.
it wasn't your inability to read the font color or your stating as much but rather the prolonged and awkward nature of the interactions between you and madoka about them. it didn't feel very natural to me.
In post 317, Datisi wrote:Ok. @shiki Do you think George/bugs interactions are necessarily town!bugs scum!george indicative?
Also, your reads in general?
i think it's much more likely town!bugs scum!george indicative than scum/scum indicative.
town - madoka, datisi, hiraki
null - luca, holden, bugspray
scum - george, monkey
I'm not quite sure I'm following the whole interaction thing. Can you put it together in a post and explain the rational (since you put one of us as town in the same post)?
I'm more interested in seeing the analysis than arguing
In post 339, bugspray wrote:
i feel like im missing a few connections and probably arent' respresenting my ideas on relationships in this game peroperly...
going to make a version 2 with arrows and shit after dinner
I thought the diagrams in my chemistry text book were hard to read.
Also there are 9 players and 8 circles?
Ps: best wishes to your family in the Hospital, especially given everything going on
Part 1: Unanswered Questions
First, I'll scan the game for questions that are unanswered. I'm answering these with only the information I had before page 8. And then, I'll read the game. After that, I'll give my next batch of impressions, give my reads, and suggest what we do moving forward.
Q1: 180 - Madoka
Yes, is there anyone in particular you would like my opinion of?
No, but with all your questions at this point of the game, I would have expected that you shared what it is that you stand for. You were merely asking questions with no obvious motivations. I wanted to change that and get you to commit big to something, so we can talk about it.
Q2: 181 - Luca
Monkey, why did you want to withhold your read on me, and is there any update on that?
People were townreading you, but gave no reason why. I wanted to hear them come up with why, and then share my read with you.
By the way, my read for you was also town. Your posts have a good blend of paranoid, curious, and opinionated — it's what I'm looking for in early town reads.
Q3: 183 - shiki
my vote on luca was rvs unless you think that i think that luca's past history of rolling scum would somehow impact this game? or unless you think that i think micc is a dishonest mod (i don't)?
RVS is "I voted dummythicc because he's dummy thicc." Your RVS was not RVS — it's a real efforted stab at the other players' likelihood to be scum. I feel like scum would try to look least suspicious, and try to justify their RVS more.
Q4: 183 - shiki
what is it that makes town? and scum?
town motivation and organic behavior vs scum motivation and inorganic behavior
Q5: 183 - shiki
i found it interesting that you joined a blitz game despite your opinions on geriatric games and hyperactivity. were you hoping other players would drive the game?
it's not interesting. I literally just /all'ed Micro queue. I wanted to get back on playing again, but I wanted it to be short-time commitment so I queue'd Micro's and a Newbie.
I was not hoping other players would drive the game. I wanted to post for three hours per day, and keep it contained like that.
Q6: 183 - shiki
you have found datisi's efforts to push the game forward scummy; do you see malicious intent in this or do you simply find it to be 'aimless' as someone else stated? i am asking because you said he was doing it for towncred, but i think scum would have more of an agenda than that.
what agenda would scum have at early game other than get towncred? remember, at this point, we're just leaving RVS.
Q7: 187 - HoldenGolden
Why did you want to build the Datisi wagon over Hiraki?
Because my read on Hiraki was more of a tone impression than anything stronger, and I wanted to give him chance throughout the day. I felt like my Datisi read was more worth pursuing. That immediately changed when Hiraki was pushing me, and I found that to actually be scummy.
Part 1 ends. Part 2 starts after I finish these episodes of The Good Place.d
Bugs is complicated for me to read. They reminds me of a player who I played with ages ago decently (Emps for all you meta hungry savages) IE. Someone who logically was very scummy but from a tonal perspective townie (and this was when he rolled town).
I shall eat some pasta, but I'm going to throw out a hot spicy take that bugs is town. I'll explain a more when I return.
Pedit; speaking of spicy, that's a spicy WoT by the monkey himself.
VOTE: georgebailey going to put my vote on a red circle instead of a black one for obvious reasons
MY PRONOUNS ARE THEY/THEM
do not assume my posts follow coherency they do not imagine that every time i post i put half of my knowledge into a clone and then the clone murders me
Ps: best wishes to your family in the Hospital, especially given everything going on
thanks :) its kinda hard to emotionally deal with it when i cant visit the hopsital due to coronavirus :(
MY PRONOUNS ARE THEY/THEM
do not assume my posts follow coherency they do not imagine that every time i post i put half of my knowledge into a clone and then the clone murders me
In post 361, bugspray wrote:VOTE: georgebailey going to put my vote on a red circle instead of a black one for obvious reasons
could you explain the diagram? because i genuinely have no idea what those obvious reasons are?
I will straight up disregard all reason if you have a PR dream again. You can come back and be like, “I dreamt that Locke is a N2 Bulletproof Multitasking Cop and Self-Targeting Doctor,” and I will go, “Okay, Locke kill it is then.”
Can you give an example? Also what happened to your Datisi read?
i don't think there was a follow up to this. i'll admit to being wrong if i missed it.
also, wasn't that bugs' first scumgame? saying someone's towny because their play is very (maybe debateable) different to their first scumgame is p bad reasoning. i'd be locktown every single game i play by that criteria.
The diagram is a little inaccurate because I forgot which h was which at some point and I'm going to make another one with more consistent notation
MY PRONOUNS ARE THEY/THEM
do not assume my posts follow coherency they do not imagine that every time i post i put half of my knowledge into a clone and then the clone murders me
i cant tell if george is town or doing a good job of pocketing me and it doesnt feel nice
MY PRONOUNS ARE THEY/THEM
do not assume my posts follow coherency they do not imagine that every time i post i put half of my knowledge into a clone and then the clone murders me
In post 73, bugspray wrote:i think so, yeah
even if it's a style clash chances are it will drive the game forward with some more ai content to end this bout of "apathy"
pedit: no, madoka but it seems like you're definitely trying to convey some meaning and i'm bad at figuring that stuff out
Also, another reason I townread Bugs (and Luca because his idea is sort of the same) is that a lot their early posts were about generating content through conversations.
It's okay, we're all aware that you're barely reading the game at this point now. Everything is early post early post early post. You can't comment on something you haven't read!
I will preface this by saying the following: This is a Sherlock post. What's a Sherlock post? It is something I just made up to describe a read that is based on assumptions and deductions, much like how the fictional character the name is based on performs, rather than objective truths and facts. There is logic in this post, yet not necessarily in the normal mafia scum/town behavior analysis. You can think of it as a focus on understanding a player through a psychology lenses.
As an extension, I will go further to say I do not think that anything that Bug's has posted is townie from logic based perspective. All of their posts have either left me confused or did not satisfy my curiosity such as when I asked them to provide more credible logic in regards to their reads. Rather, I think he is town based on observations I see from what they are posting.
If it is not your cup of tea, shut up and read it. You signed up to play a digital game with no real world repercussions. Much like watson, you do not have a damn choice.
Observation 1: Meta-breaker; Bugs is relying on guides and wiki to help his play.
Posts that support this:
Spoiler:
In post 237, bugspray wrote:because i think my wagon being stagnant means theres scum on it and if nots not george or luca then it would have to be you unless im just real stupid
In post 238, bugspray wrote:what the fuck is a stagnant wagon then??
like its been more than 1/3 of the ENTIRE day and my wagon hasn't grown that feels pretty fstagnant to me
Have you ever been in a classroom dozing off when suddenly the teacher calls on you? I have, and the first thing I start doing is spurt out technical terms and nonsense.
In a sense, I can see that coming from bugs. A major cornerstone of their posts have to deal with theories, specific fallacies, and literally citing a guide in response to their views on hiraki. It would be a fair assumption to say that bugs knows this information coming into the game, yet their misapplication of these theories and co at nearly every step of their analysis indicates to me that they are looking at the info for the first time. Hence why none of their posts makes any logical sense at all; much like me trying to explain shit in inorganic chem when I am missing the info from organic. Furthermore, since they are using these guides/wiki information, traditional meta-analysis becomes a game of WIFOM. Are they using these because their scum game is shit? Or are they genuinely trying a new style out? There is simply not a good way to read into it.
Spoiler: side tangent on meta
This is why I have said multiple times I do not care for meta points. Unless there is a clear as day sign of someone being mafia, then it really becomes a WIFOM game imo. Even then, all that player has to do is post more in that situation and boom, he broke his meta. Not to mention the lack of playing during the game with someone drastically changes how you read the meta. What might in retrospect seem a meta defining point is actually incorrect because you don't know all the context of what happen. Of course this starts taking into account how diligent somebody is when it comes to meta analysis, but I doubt the average player reads entire games to get the meta on one or two players.
So what do we have left to think about it? The why. Although it is speculation, I think I have a reason to why this points to them being town rather than scum using these to try and blend in. That reason goes back to how they are applying it in their reads. Despite having the access to such theories, most of Bug's scum reads are not carefully constructed to take advantage of them. Not only are the ones that directly cite the theories are short cut, but that they are also posting insightful read justification such as:
This is bleeding into the second observation I will be talking about, yet from a scum!bugs perspective, throwing these kind of reads out when you are trying to find ways to incorporate established theories into your reasons why someone is "scum". Scum imo care much more about maintaining continuity in their reads, basically wanting to show a clear thought process throughout their analysis as typically those who do 180's get called out by town. As such, considering this focus on technical knowledge, I think scum!bugs would not be throwing out such lazy reads conjugation with trying to utilize that tool.
This is really bleeding into number 2, so:
Observation II: Who Cares, not bugs! Bug is posting without care
posts that support this
Spoiler:
Honestly ALOT of Bug's ISO shows this but let me just indulge you
In post 68, bugspray wrote:luca stands out as townish to me; his tone feels different to that newbie game where i was masons with clidd and he was scum
its just a brainworm meta read
wrt 86
i just really like saying lamist because i pronounce it funny in my brain every time i type it
lamist lamist lamist lamist
In post 209, bugspray wrote:its fuckin weird how georgebailey isnt posting since a long time ago (weird to say that with 24h days...)
with how my wagon became stagnant it makes me think maybe its scumdriven?? but i dont think ur the scum on my wagon bcs you seem to be actively townsolve and get ai posts happen
like do we just lynch the inactive slot??
In post 206, bugspray wrote:good morning i read stuff and now i dont know what to think ahhhh also i have to pee
In post 337, bugspray wrote:ok i reread the stuff and its just sort of adding to my confusion i kind of wanna make a 9 circle venn diagram but i dont think that will help me at all
GULP
*opens GIMP*
In post 272, bugspray wrote:every time I read more posts I question myself even more not going to read and compared postsvbecae I'm in bath tub right now tryna chill and also on phone
In post 249, bugspray wrote:wait what the fuck the deadline is 3 days? i thought it was 24 hours
To keep the college relationship going, when the class basically silent laughs at my answer becuase it is batshit wrong I don't care. Why do I care? Wait class is over? When did that happen?
If you have been keeping up with the thread to this point, then you know that bug's is pretty much scum read by pretty much everybody and has been for quite a bit (well, at least by active players). Yet, I find it important that while the logic in their posts have not improved, they really do not seem concerned or even aware of the thread sentiment. Where those would be struggling to defend themselves by throwing everything against the wall, Bug is currently making a fucking 9 directional Venn Diagram with different color lines. They have posted before hand random shit like "I don't know what to make but I need to piss" to "IDGAF I am in a bubble bath"
This does not scream scum frailing that they are likely to get lynched. This screams townie posting what ever comes to their head. Half the time I think the bug is actually reading a different game because they are so detached from what is going on. It is not even a real attempt at misrepresenting and more a genuine confusion of how the game is functioning and evolving. This harks to actual scum tonal analysis. Bug's is too free with their postings. Yes, scum!bugs could be fine posting whatever, but given their posts and how they are seemingly relying on guides and do not seem experienced, then I am left to assume this is indicative of a town!bugs.
The only real frailing I see was during the whole stagnate wagon on me phase of their ISO, yet this bleeds into my final point.
Observation Triangle: Despite being relaxed to post whatever, they are paranoid
Posts to support:
Spoiler:
The entire stagenet wagon thing. Seriously, just go read it. Plus these
In post 335, bugspray wrote:Oh my God those posts are so long I can't read that shit on my phone in bed ugh
But for some tinfoil reason I feel like there's one scum in
I do not have a way to keep the college chemistry part going.
Yet it does sound like a oxymoron to say someone is freely posting whatever without a care, yet super paranoid at the same time. None the less, this is exactly what is going on. While I think tinfoil does have some merit for scum, the way it comes across from Bug alongside the stagnant wagon thing feels very townie upon rereading. It lacks a particular direction I would assume they would have due to scum!bug's knowing that it is a lie. Afterall, it is easier to make tinfoil sound tinfoily when you know it has not real truth (at least to me it does). They do not really use it to set up a push on a player, rather, it is the only basis at times for what they are doing. Tinfoil its George -> voting George.
Hell take what they posted while I was writing this as another example:
bugspray wrote:i cant tell if george is town or doing a good job of pocketing me and it doesnt feel nice
If you are scum!bug here, why the hell do you cast doubt over the person you are trying to push assuming that george is town? Even if he is scum, why draw additional attention to your scum buddy if you are planning to get lynch? Neither help, and this level of paranoidia is what makes me additionally think Bugs is town here. It conveys as genuine skepticism rather than a fabricated lie (not to mention we clearly can see that bugs is not partically planning from observation II).
Observation Addium: On the matter of a George/bug scum team.
I do not remember who, but someone threw this out there so I wanted to talk about it.
No
God no
No.
If they are scum team together they have played like shit (honest truth, especially if they had day talk) and I have played even shitter (double honest truth). Not only can I make another WoT onto why such a team is not valid, but commonsense should too. I am not saying I am a great player (in fact I consider myself quite subpar in the grand scheme of things), but I refuse to live in a world where the scum team has interacted this way with one another.
and yes, i am dismissing it out of disappointment of reality along with me not thinking bugs is scum.
Conclusion and Ramifications:
Bugs is town.
I do not really feel their play-style makes a lick of sense in general, but through trying to understand how they are approaching the game (the guides, care free attitude yet paranoid), I think they are town. Is this the most concrete thing in the world? No. Yet I stand by it. Perhaps it is my gut telling me I am right. Perhaps I am just fucking correct. Like anyone, I will process new info that they post into this, but I want to move away from bugs.
I do not know how this impacts the rest of my reads. I did not get that fair in the writing of this WoT and is my next focus. I do think by consequence that means someone I townlean earlier could be scum. I find it is going to be partially difficult to analyse the push onto Bugs as I can understand why it happened (and was coming/came around to it too) since the posting strength of them is lacking. I am taking a break to play some Sc2 to refresh before I start looking.
![:]](./images/smilies/icon_smiling.png "Cheerful Smile"){kind=icon}
