On the Flying Scumsman (Abandoned)

[Despair Night]

Ok, one slot is "half the playerlist"?

~som

[Despair Night]

JC, did DRK ever contribute with anything to your reads / given thoughts in discord or whatever you guys use?

~som

[Latias and Latios]

(In all likelihood, alignments were randed before picks.)

Pretty sure this was explicitly stated to be the case

-Latios

[Blake X Yang]

Interesting post from Yang, whereas i remember a terrible push from blake happening several pages ahead of where i am at. These two hydra are both reasonably active (not top posters, but also definitely not lurkers) but do not seem to be privately communicating about their opinions. I have just recently played my first game in a hydra with alisae, and we've been collaborating the shit out of that game as a town slot. This hydra with bitmap is vastly different, but that's because bitmap is fairly disengaged with the game so far.

Yet, i would expect that taly/alyssa would be much more in line with their posting, and seeing these independent strikes from them is not something i'm fancying right now. Their voting pattern is also a bit weird based on progression, but i'll go about this later when i get to blake posts.

-Farkran

This is how all my hydras play. If I'm in line or consistently syncing with my hydra partner within a game, there's very good odds I'm either not posting at all or having very little presence in the main thread.

Scumreading based off this is fallacious.

On to stronger reads:

707+781 from despair were good. I think very few slots have actually realized that my initial read on egospray and the question to despair was aimed to get out from RVS rather than pushing something consistent. We were, like, page 6 when that happened? I prodded two slots to deliver content, and gave everyone else something to analyze.

A lot of people focused on that exchange as if it was a push that scum would make - which only makes sense from slots who want to join the 1v1 to sort me and also giving more content for other people to analyze. I liked those, and i also liked the slots who picked the RT up and tried to analyze it from a distance. Imperium's 705+711+777 is nitpicking on details but i can see them trying to identify how town!Farkran works as opposed to undertalescum!Fark. I feel like they are pausing to assess if i am actually trying to bullshit push my way or not in this game, and that's a proper approach to my introductory posts.

I disliked slots who are ignoring the current gamestate and are not proactively trying to improve it. I feel like scum would find lurking an efficient strategy in this game, and that's why i am not fond of NL and egospray himself yet.

Other slots, such as blake/yang, have used that exchange to make a push on me way later into the game, without pausing to analyze my intent when i posted that. Another element that points at blake/yang being scum is the dissonance in yang's readlists vs their analysis on my slot. They have a dislike of egospray (which i am voting), yet they never proactively examined the slot and went with voting me instead. This might be NAI for egospray but it's definitely AI for blake/yang. Post 670 was terrible in this context, basically entirely made of consensus townreads, nullreads on plausible scum and scumreads on town. 775 and 780 are simply shooting the shit because that's nowhere near a solid hold to make a push on my slot so far. I think they would have reason to remove me if they are scum, definitely not if they are town.

VOTE: Blake and Yang i feel like i have identified a scum motivated push.

Willing to listen more about egospray, i don't see these two slots as disaligned.

-Farkran

This post entirely assumes that you are obviously town up to this point, which you are not.

You've been playing very differently from both other games I've played with you, even taking our discord conversations into account. I have a personality read on you that makes me strongly believe that you would challenge scumreads similarly to the way skitter30 confronts me when she believes she's obviously town and yet I'm voting her anyway. The way you're going about this exchange does not give me the same impression. The way you're going about this exchange gives me much more of an impression that you are attempting to build up enough initial credibility to properly challenge the scumread and brute force an advantage to cut the momentum short.

I don't remember ever seeing you do this as town rather than just confrontation and pressure. This political speak is unbecoming of you.

-Blake

[Blake X Yang]

pedit @blake: different meta from blake or alyssa have no inference on your read accuracy around me, unless you are saying that ankamius is a good reader and blake isn't, which would be nonsensical. You may change personality and modus operandi by switching accounts, you do not change your accuracy rating.

I would like to point out that this was directly made in response to me telling Spiffeh that he shouldn't townread Blake off Alyssa meta, considering both of them have very different playstyle presentations and tells. It's not even ambiguous that this is the case.

-Blake

[Latias and Latios]

Well, let's begin discussion.

1) Why could Titus' entrance come from scum?
2) Is Spiffy's hydra a valid lynch?
3) Do you think that much of Mikoto-Something places too much emphasis on appearing a certain manner?
4) What is one reason to townread Black Hole Defection?

Okay sure, I'll answer these.

1) I mean, anybody's start could be from scum. But Titus is someone I've played a few games with and I'd like to think I can read her by now. Her start seems a little slow for her, but I don't know that it's AI, she seems to actually be busy with things. But she does seem to be holding back a little. That's really the only thing from my perspective. I don't go in for a "oh this person is scum cuz they started by saying/doing x" way of play. I'm always about tone and what brand of defensive people are being, are they lying/hiding something, is what they're doing helping town. So how people start could be absolutely meaningless.

2) With no actual information, isn't everybody? I don't think Spiffy's hydra has given any actual reasons they should be lynched though, and lynching them wouldn't actually give much information to go forward with. I don't know that anyone fits this yet. Most Day 1 lynches really don't from my limited experience.

3) I don't know that I'd say they look like they're going out of their way to have a certain perception, but reading them in isolation, they do have an odd tone that feels performative. Could just be how they're playing their hydra, I couldn't say, I don't have any experience with either head at all. At the same time, I weirdly like them?

4) Their posts have actual content to them. When they're saying anything, they actually link back to things that support their claims or help expand further what it is they mean. They're a hydra that I expect will also continue to give good content that is actually helpful to the town. I just like their logical tone so far. That's a reason enough for me.

I'm still waiting on Pine's opinions on things and to actually catch up, but I hope this kinda gives you a perspective on how I view and think about things?

~xoffy

I like these thoughts, feels very genuine and nuanced

-Latios

[Latias and Latios]

Insomnia, it's boring that you asked 4 self-meta questions and then not followed up with a response when someone replied.

What was the point of it if it was just to see who would reply? If at all?

I feel this

-Latios

[Latias and Latios]

Bitmap is trying to talk me away of my vote on blakeyang but i'm not entirely convinced yet. The push was bad, but upon reexamination of their ISO it seems that i was wrong believing that they had stronger scumreads than us. They actually expressed doubts about us early enough, and the progression might make sense. The analysis is still wrong, but not as terrible as i was viewing it before, and blake doesn't look as confident as i thought she was, which may point to wrong town rather than scum.

I am willing to go back to VOTE: egospray and wait for more content from blake.

People in my town bloc right now are cappy, latiguys, black hole, imperium and despair. I'm fine working with them. @black hole i think you should reconsider your vote on cappy.

-Farkran

This makes me feel a little better about the Farkran head
BMP head still has problems though imo

-Latios

[Blake X Yang]

Bitmap, as well, feels very similar to how he did in Titus vs Alisae. I mistakenly attributed it to him being a mason in that game, but there is no stick excuse here.

Who were you in T v A?

~Titus

Spoiler:

Hello everyone.

VOTE: Okapoka

---

Fun fact if I was Ali I would have picked Spif, FL, Ank, and Hectic.

Survivability?

E wouldn't pick people that'd die early on imo.

Incorrect.

Drafting me as scum while Krazy is in the game and not also scum is suicidal.

---

Hello Pine. I am not an ascetic.

--

Hello everybody. Does anybody have an idea of where to start to get reads in this game?

---

this game feels like it should be easy and that makes me wonder how much of it is manipulated

---

Can you tell me your list?

I also agree with Cerb.

Gobble, why are you voting Pine?

Unfortunately, I got sidetracked while going through a deeper dive earlier. I am only going by baseline gut feelings from the most recent posts.

---

Hi Ank I saw earlier you were having trouble gathering reads. Is that still the case?

No, it is not.

---

I agree with this. I also believe they are a high likelihood to be a snipe by Alisae due to their raw proficiency in setup information. Alisae knows going into this game that there's going to be several strong town players that are unavoidably going to be town, so it's reasonably rational to pick up a powerhouse in mechanics to help prevent a disadvantage from forming via mechanics as well.

Considering that Cerberus is provably competent at using mechanics to his advantage to set himself up as very likely town via those methods, I don't believe he would be afraid of an ascetic claim making him lynchable early on in the game.

And you think Cerb filters Drixx posting because?

I don't understand what this is referring to.

---

Why? This argument already assumes he's scum.

I was responding to this bit.

You're starting that Cerb would use mechanics to set himself up as town. Ok, theory granted but ascetic doesn't make anyone look town.

---

Ank why is Spiffeh your highest townread?

I don't see his general mindset this game coming from scum.

---

VOTE: TrueSoulEnergy

---

Why am I scum, TSE?

---

Sherlock, where is Watson?

Ank, who will become unavoidably town in this playerlist? Why?

Flavor Leaf, why do you not feel memorable?

TSE, give me another shot of the wheel.

Are you asking about unavoidably town via draft, or via play?

---

I'm not actually as mad at you as you think I am. I don't hold grudges for very long.

---

how common is asceticism?

the biggest thing that can probably get the point that I find his entire approach to the game very bizarre is this post.

Namely, look at that entire page and try to figure out where exactly this post came from.

As an addition, what I really don't like is that most of his ISO is shitposting and memes, and his content posts look like this:

why don't you be the change you want to see Ank?
give us something worthwhile

Reasonably rational town
don't really get what's going on with Espeonage/Pine

agree with Pine and FL
why is Espeonage announcing himself as the strongest town PR in the game?

@Titus: WHY ARE YOU STILL TALKING ABOUT MASONS????????

Titus stop.

over reaction
she was explaining how drafting works without listing any names
please enter the FoS (Field of Suspects)

isn't TSE being TOO dumb this game?
also for the record
Aaron Fucking Frost is town

What do you think of GG? Of the currently active posters he's the only one I'd consider for recruitment. What do you think?

-S

I'm not seeing consistent thought processes in any of his posts, which is rather interesting for somebody who has been engaged as heavily into the game as Hectic and with the amount of general 'content' he's posted in the game. I saw significantly more in the last time I've seen him in a game.

To make it worse, there actually is a thought process in his ISO, but, well, the process behind these posts are unnatural.

Does Alisae have access to the Mafia PT and can talk in it?

I'm like ready to town boon but I actually feel really surprised this is a question he is asking, almost too much?

idk maybe not

-S

My dumbness as scum comes off a lot more genuine than it does when I’m town.

Antihero commented one a dead thread once “if Boon is scum, that’s the best fake confusion I’ve ever seen”

When I’m town being dumb, I’m being a derp.

ScumDerp is like when I slip, but I cleverly figure out a way against it.

The masonry is outed?

this post following the first one is hilarious
Leafy's feeling obvtown
with the mason bloc slipping
and the "too lazy to go and check but it should be 4 or 5 scum this game"

Leafy, your logic for TSE regarding drafting is:
-Last person Ali would pick
-Therefore, raises his chance of being picked
-Which lowers the chance of him being picked
-Which puts him middle of the pack for picks

Your logic for yourself:
-Ali would never pick me
-Therefore, Ali would never pick me

why the difference?

Aaron and Hectic were lean towns for me from my read through, I commented on my AF read, so that’s good that my gut was right with them.

Pine being a mason actually helps a lot, and lowers a heavy pick.

hmmmmmmmmmm

I claim masons and Boon does not get the joke

hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm

HMMMMMMMM

hmmmm

nah not gonna think more about it right now

-S

I thought you said Hectic, Pine, AF were masons in your one post, so i thought you were just trollin

here Leafy thinks Sherlock's hmmming is regarding Sherlock himself claiming mason
still thinks Hectic AaronFF Pine are masons
that's some advanced confusion if scum

I didn't spoiler the above because somehow it ate my post when I tried last time. Sorry.

Anyways, I don't find it to be very natural to call a slot obvtown, then to ask them a question that normally would be used for sorting, and then to explain the read afterwards.

I also don't feel like the interaction with Spiffeh shortly afterwards was for any reason other than to force a random read on them either. It's so stilted of an engagement that it's hard to see it as genuine.

---

Very well. I will return to observing in the meantime.

---

I don't see a clown nose avi, Alisae.

---

The RR scumread and vote were fake.

---

[Latias and Latios]

So this is my first non-IC newbie game. Welcome everyone, and JC especially from our history. I had a custom of posing some introductory questions to get the game started:

1. What is your experience at Mafia
2. How do you play as town
3. How do you play as scum
4. What do you think gives away a player as scum or town

~som

I have issues with this post but ill answer anyways and then give my thoughts on it.

1. Years of experience, to the point where ive been almost selected for Champs at MU more then once.
2 & 3 Have Chemist answer this for me. He knows how I play. Me giving any answer would make it wifom while having him answer for me would tie us together, and it would help me read him based off his answer on me.
4. I think chems answer to the above would help answer this more then anything i could give honestly

the issues i have with this is that no matter what alignment you have, your going to try to make it seem like your town from these answers, even if its nt 100% true. Theyre just not good questions.

wouldnt you get much more info if we posted our latest scum/town games?

Goodposting from Smol Might

-Latios

[Latias and Latios]

I felt Latias/Latios had the worst ISO at the time but nothing I could explicitly call scummy.

What does this even mean...

I'm glad the Spiffybringer wagon is rolling. I find it hard to believe that the best push town!Spiff comes up with here is Smol Might, basically a troll slot.
I feel better about Imperium w/Nacho's posting spree over the last few pages.
Blake x Yang remains town. 810 is really weird though?? Like I feel that IC thing was clearly a joke.
I could PL Smol Might for their spam but I don't really see scum intent there? Ircher doesn't like them though so I could see us ending up voting there I suppose. I'm cautious because SB is really pushing there w/o strong reasoning.
Lastly, even if Hectic's PR is fake it's still NAI...

Now I am hurt, I cant even have a day to relax? Bleh

Smol Might needs time to recharge you guys!!!

-Latios

[Latias and Latios]

-Farkran is noticeably different than Undertale and I'm inclined to townlean here. I don't put a lot of stock in his insistence that his attitude is NAI. Undertale he noticeably asked questions with a goal of mostly either persuading someone else or hoping to find a weakness to exploit. There's a lot more generosity with his approach here. The circumstances are different but this is solid.

well this is a disappointment - your track record is most certainly better than mine. my thought was that he was pushing the same inconsequential angles he was pushing in our game as scum - you disagree?

Yes. #711 and #777 tell me you learned the wrong lessons from Undertale. Farkran's style is exactly nitpicking, asking a lot of questions, and generally trying to push people into uncomfortable places to see what happens. His problem as scum is that he works backwards based off of what he wants to do strategically with the answers, rather than genuinely reading into the answers and adjusting his read accordingly.

This approach is believable but I'm doubtful. Trying to put it into words is generally the best approach. This feels like an overreaction to Farkran's play from Undertale, and while I haven't read his town games recently, I do fortunately remember making a post highlighting that his style was very similar, but was more generous and clearly investigative. #818 was exactly the explanation I expected from Farktown here.

He also absolutely adjusts his scumgame after Undertale. The fact that he has kept a lot of the same stylistic choice of play tells me it is probably not very NAI. I'd say it's a townlean but I have a hard time believing that I won't be able to hardlock this slot a hundred posts down the line. There's only so much adjustment one can make in a single game.

Prism

Since pops is using black, I'll probably stop signing pretty soon and just use the color

Prism you just kinda re-hyped me on my Farkran SR
Because that working backwards thing is exactly what I saw from him when he was interacting with the BEES hydra initially

-Latios

[Blake X Yang]

I distantly remember roughly what the difference is. I believe I would be picking up on the difference if it was present even if I might not necessarily be able to describe what I'm seeing, exactly.

-Blake

[Latias and Latios]

Uhh I guess I should give all reads?
{DA, BHD, Imperium, Mikoto/Kuroko, Despair, Lati@s, Cappy} came off as town. The only one that's pinged me as scum so far is Searchers, I have a lot of nulls

VOTE: Searchers

since dats isn't playing the mafia part i can do whatever i want with this vote now!

pedit: Datisi's still playing the events pretty sure, he just doesn't want to play in this game because he can't keep up with it and he hates larges, we both thought this wasn't going to be a real mafia game and it was going to be mostly events and memes with a bit of mafia on the side too. I agree he was great! He actually told me before the event but I didn't get around to actually doing stuff earlier, oops

Lots of people seem to SR Searchers, I am curious why because they just feel kinda grating but not exactly in a scum way

[Latias and Latios]

-Latios

fuck I need sleep

[Latias and Latios]

To be clear, posts wise, Cappy's posts haven't really struck me one way or the other. I thought their read on our slot was relatively reasonable I guess.
~Ircher

pedit: Go ahead and lynch us. It's town loss.

Okay this is a bad way to act

-Latios

[Despair Night]

Spiffybringer -

Alright. I have already touched on some of the stuff that bothered me, but I'll do a complete ISO scan.

Interactions with Imperium slot

:

p#163 is horrible enough to warrant this explanation. I always look at posts like these and immediately get gut pinged "scum", mainly because I take it as someone looking to replicate previous interactions / rekindle previous memories that would make someone just feel well with regards to their alignment (Spiffy's). Not to say this couldn't be said by a town but I just think it's a weird thing to focus on,

especially when they haven't even posted.

I feel as though a more town way of reacting to slots that you have some history with is to just let them post, and joke with them, rather than just leaving a comment there. I may be biased, but saying it before a slot has even posted feels a lot more like a scum pussy move. You don't say it as a joke while interacting with them, because you don't know how they'd react. Also, it's much more likely when they're doing that catchup, they'll see the post and think "heh, this is town spiffy".

If you skim through Spiff's ISO, you can see that there is almost NO ATTEMPT WHATSOEVER to sort Imperium, but he dedicates a lot of his time denying reads on Imperium, while having no idea what Imperium is. I've always looked at that behaviour as more scum. If you don't think they're town, then why aren't you pushing to confirm your theory? You're sitting on an unexplained read, denying any and all town reads on that slot, without even trying to see whether the reasoning that is given is justified. By denying the reads, you're essentially saying "I can see why he's being town read, but I actively choose to deny town reads on them anyway". Why? If you think they're such weak scum that you can - in your own words - find them on Day 2, wouldn't you be more likely to believe they're just town here? I don't see the connections in your head, it feels a lot more like you don't want Nacho and Tammy to be town read because they can push scum and are powerful town. If you were town, wouldn't you want to harness that strength out of them and work with them? Instead you're doing your best to turn down reads on them.

THAT IS NOT A NATURAL TvT interaction between two slots that have previously played together. There is no town motivation behind denying reads on a player that YOU HAVE NO STANDING ON. You're more worried about the power and credit they're getting, even though I don't really see why it would be such a problem? They literally claimed, you have no reaction based on that post.

P#460 is another example, you have no standing on the slot, you DEMAND a town read on yourself, instead of ASKING WHAT THEIR READ IS ON YOU SO YOU CAN SORT THEM.

P#833 another interaction with Imperium, you joke with them.

P#835 dismissing the slot, looking to distance from them. Why???

Spiffy has done nothing but discrediting and shading the Imperium slot so they wouldn't gain the power of leading lynches. He does nothing to sort them still, every time he gets the chance to engage one of them, he chooses to joke with them instead. This is not town behaviour. If you are town and truly afraid of Imperium gaining power, you wouldn't shut it down without having a read on them, you'd first sort them and then argue.

VOTE: Spiffybringer

This stays for the rest of the day. I won't argue with spiffy. He can defend himself, but I don't think I'm changing my mind. Decide for yourselves whether this is a scum slot or not.

[Latias and Latios]

Yang can you activate your combined doctor-bulletproof so we can both be sure to be alive tomorrow?

-JC

Yang has a BG action, not a doctor action

-Latios

[Blake X Yang]

Almost all of this game is pure noise.

Saddening.

-Blake

[Despair Night]

I hate when you do that Ank.

~som

[Latias and Latios]

VOTE COUNT 1 . 6

• Despair Night
  --------- 3 ( Egopsray, The Searchers, Spiffybringer )
  L- 6
  
  
  Egospray
  -------------- 2 ( Latias and Latios, Mikoto and Kuroko )
  L- 7
  
  
  Mikoto and Kuroko
  ----- 2 ( Blake x Yang, Disaster Artists )
  L- 7
  
  
  The Searchers
  --------- 2 ( Feminist Blocc, Despair Night )
  L- 7
  
  
  Latias and Latios
  ----- 1 ( Smol Might )
  L- 8
  
  
  Flavortown
  ------------ 1 ( Equitable Androids )
  L- 8
  
  
  Smol Might
  ------------ 1 ( Cappy )
  L- 8
  
  
  Cappy
  ----------------- 1 ( Black Hole Defection )
  L- 8
  
  
  Disaster Artists
  ------ 1 ( Flavortown )
  L- 8
  
  
  Spiffybringer
  --------- 1 ( Imperium )
  L- 8
  
  
  Blake x Yang
  ---------- 0 ( No One )
  L- 9
  
  
  NL
  -------------------- 0 ( No One )
  L- 9
  
  
  Black Hole Defection
  -- 0 ( No One )
  L- 9
  
  
  Equitable Androids
  ---- 0 ( No One )
  L- 9
  
  
  Imperium
  -------------- 0 ( No One )
  L- 9
  
  
  Feminist Blocc
  -------- 0 ( No One )
  L- 9
  
  
  Unapologetically Foxy
  - 0 ( No One )
  L- 9
  
  
  
  
  Not Voting
  ----------- 2 ( NL, Unapologetically Foxy )

With 17 alive, it takes 9 to Lynch
Deadline is in (expired on 2020-04-15 01:56:11)

I have 0 idea why we're on egospray of all slots, I'll have to talk to Chemist about that
I haven't really been trying when it comes to reads though, mostly because this game feels very all over the place currently. I'm pretty much taking what I can get.

-Latios

[Disaster Artists]

JC, did DRK ever contribute with anything to your reads / given thoughts in discord or whatever you guys use?

~som

Thought I answered this like 5 posts ago but yeah kinda? I just don't tend to msntion if she disagrees with a read when both of our reads are still settling

-JC

[Blake X Yang]

Anyway, I'm caught up and approximately none of my reads have changed over the last twelve or so pages.

I will likely step back and let Yang have control over the posting and the vote until the game is less noisy in order to allow me to focus more elsewhere. I will still be following along roughly, so direct me places if I need to look at anything.

-Blake

[Disaster Artists]

Almost all of this game is pure noise.

Saddening.

-Blake

This game is chock full of rich content

[Blake X Yang]

Almost all of this game is pure noise.

Saddening.

-Blake

This game is chock full of rich content

Primarily from slots I'm already confident on.

Reinforcing the same reads over twenty pages does nothing for me, sorry.

-Blake