Newbie 1996: GAME OVER

[humaneatingmonkey]

I'm also an SE, but I don't know if I can teach anyone anything. Kids these days always have previous mafia experience. If you need my official SE advice, ask away.

[HoldenGolden]

Lucky does not look good under pressure. Does anyone feel like he's town?
I don't know if I'm tunnelling or not, but he says he's got no reason to change his votes — yet he scumreads InWho22 and doesn't vote him.
This is the kind of shit I tried to pull off as scum in my last game with Holden.

the InWho22 Scumread doesn't bother me. He finds it scummy, but I don't see anywhere where he pushes it into a bigger read. More importantly, It seems has more faith in his scumread on you than on InWho. That's what was off about you last game we played. Hiraki was your stronger read, yet you were voting Datisi while finding more reasons to scum read Hiraki. Here, he just mentions it in response to a question and hasn't explicit push them like you did that game on Datisi.

My issues are more tonal. It seems that he is a more factual player in the sense he likes going off of clear fallacies and the such. Day 1 is not that. So I can understand if I take that at face value that he finds day 1 terrible to play. There is nothing wrong with preferring that playstyle. The threat to lurk until day 2 and complaining about everyone demanding final reads is the issue. Im working in my mind right now if it was an intentional misrep (as he knows day 1 is more speculative) by scum to look like frustrated townie, or he is actually a frustrated townie.

[HoldenGolden]

Not much, since most players didn't actually react to it.

So what do you think about post #36?

Because I see it as scummy also, and I know I'm town, therefore I understand why town might see it as scummy? This day one is going to be insufferable, isn't it?

I disagree here. Town can townread - scumread someone with many reasons, with or without agreement the other, regardless their alignment. So, do you scumream Who22 here? What is the reason? In your PoV, have you thought about Kirari as mafia and you have agreement with her?

I do like the later half of this post for trying to get a firm stance from LL on inwho

[humaneatingmonkey]

the InWho22 Scumread doesn't bother me. He finds it scummy, but I don't see anywhere where he pushes it into a bigger read. More importantly, It seems has more faith in his scumread on you than on InWho.

Holden, that's not what he says.

See here:

@Yooh, my only reason to suspect Monkey is his concern with me putting Holden at L-2 yet leaving his vote there. I don't think his vote on me later is AI. I think it's bad town play if he is town, which gave me an opportunity to end RVS and provide a platform for meaningful interactions.

My push on him was more for reactions from others than from him.

[humaneatingmonkey]

If anything, it's more gut. But he drops it, stops pushing me, and proceeds to agree with Kirari on her scumread.

It doesn't follow that he's frustrated either. He claims he's used to being seen as scummy and he uses this to gain more insight. Here, he just wants to disappear from the discussion.

I justified that my actions were in my town range. I'm fine being viewed as scummy, I'm used to it. I don't try to prove that I'm innocent, I just make sure people are aware it's possible. If I'm town, I'd rather be in the middle of people's readlists than locktown because mafia has to eventually push town, and if I'm not locktown then they can push me, and since I know I'm town I gain more insight from that than other players can. Savvy?

Scum who made an early whammy by trying hard, and later got told by his partner to lie low?
You see why this bothers me, right?

[LuckyLuciano]

UNVOTE: Monkey
VOTE: InWho22

Half a prod dodge because it's clear that this day is being driven by tunneling and I don't want to be a part of it. Half because 3 players have been given a free pass to do nothing because this day is being driven by tunneling. Cya guys again in another 24 hours, or day two.

[HoldenGolden]

If anything, it's more gut. But he drops it, stops pushing me, and proceeds to agree with Kirari on her scumread.

It doesn't follow that he's frustrated either. He claims he's used to being seen as scummy and he uses this to gain more insight. Here, he just wants to disappear from the discussion.

I justified that my actions were in my town range. I'm fine being viewed as scummy, I'm used to it. I don't try to prove that I'm innocent, I just make sure people are aware it's possible. If I'm town, I'd rather be in the middle of people's readlists than locktown because mafia has to eventually push town, and if I'm not locktown then they can push me, and since I know I'm town I gain more insight from that than other players can. Savvy?

Scum who made an early whammy by trying hard, and later got told by his partner to lie low?
You see why this bothers me, right?

Ok I see your point with 66.

[InWho22]

Sorry for the inactivity yesterday, it was a danish holiday.
Also, this is my first game, so take this more as stream of consciousness than thought-out ideas until I get a grip on the game.
My first thought reading through was that: wow, does LL explain a lot with "meta". Looking at his posts, over a quarter of them have been about his meta, although having said that his town/scum meta is roughly the same. Why would he keep explaining things with meta if he openly acknowledges that it makes no difference? Seems counterproductive.

Because I see it as scummy also, and I know I'm town, therefore I understand why town might see it as scummy? This day one is going to be insufferable, isn't it?

Yeah, I guess day one is going to be insufferable if you don't want to explain your views.

I don't understand why I'm not allowed to have gut pings day one and everything has to be a final read, but this day phase illustrates everything I hate about day one so I'm probably going to mostly peace out until day two.

Denying town the ability to interact with you for the rest of day one is just pretty counterproductive too.
So far, I don't feel like LL is certain scum but I definitely can't place him as town either, based on his anti-town behavior.

[Aloratom]

To be fair, I also follow my gut.

Can you answer my post #84, please?

I think that it is harder for scum to have valid points than town, therefore I think making valid points deserves small town cred. The inverse is not true. Players making invalid points aren't scummier in my eyes.

Isn't thinking critically more difficult than superficially? Why should making the easy points get more Town cred than the harder ones?

[LuckyLuciano]

You literally just agreed with me, and then concluded the opposite.

[HoldenGolden]

UNVOTE: Monkey
VOTE: InWho22

Half a prod dodge because it's clear that this day is being driven by tunneling and I don't want to be a part of it. Half because 3 players have been given a free pass to do nothing because this day is being driven by tunneling. Cya guys again in another 24 hours, or day two.

This is 100% false.

So you think 3 people were given passes, yet you are just going to go bugger off? Not push them, question them, nothing? Not only that, but the fact too that this day phase is 10 days long at the most?

Who do you think is given a free pass?

I do not like the feeling of beating people with wooden sticks for information. Reminds me too much of childhood

[LuckyLuciano]

Valid reasons to lynch someone only represent reasons to lynch scum. I also call these arguments "correct". Invalid, or incorrect, reasons to lynch somebody are those reasons that lead to mislynches. Because scum is incentivized to mislynch rather than bus, I think that valid reads build small increments of town cred over time. This is no different than how I see players approach the game on this site, I just clearly define the mechanisms at play. I do not, however, believe that invalid points mean a player is scummy, because although scum is incentivized to make invalid points, town lacks information and is likely to make invalid points by mistake.

[Aloratom]

To be fair, I also follow my gut.

Can you answer my post #84, please?

I think that it is harder for scum to have valid points than town, therefore I think making valid points deserves small town cred. The inverse is not true. Players making invalid points aren't scummier in my eyes.

Also, can you tell us the reason why you town read Holden?

I think town is more likely to miss the fact that their RVS vote was never counted. Their vote was meaningless and without intention, it's not something they really care about. Playing as scum, I think by design, requires more deliberate play. I don't think mafia doesn't realize their vote isn't being counted.

If playing scum means you're paying more attention to detail, why would you not realize your vote isn't being counted? Or am I misreading you?

[Aloratom]

You literally just agreed with me, and then concluded the opposite.

I think you said that the easy points should get small Town cred. Or did you mean less Town cred?

[LuckyLuciano]

UNVOTE: Monkey
VOTE: InWho22

Half a prod dodge because it's clear that this day is being driven by tunneling and I don't want to be a part of it. Half because 3 players have been given a free pass to do nothing because this day is being driven by tunneling. Cya guys again in another 24 hours, or day two.

This is 100% false.

So you think 3 people were given passes, yet you are just going to go bugger off? Not push them, question them, nothing? Not only that, but the fact too that this day phase is 10 days long at the most?

Who do you think is given a free pass?

I do not like the feeling of beating people with wooden sticks for information. Reminds me too much of childhood

At no point have I actually disengaged with the game. I've simply ignored you and Monkey. Look back at how I answer questions worth answering even after "peacing out". I'm making the argument that scumhunting day one typically leads to incorrect reads being driving points during LYLO, because scum can only be caught day one via unforced errors. Look at how people are pushing me. I know I'm town. I also know that scum is unlikely to jump out the gate and try to push the game forward into a state where it can be productive,

because I'm not dumb

. Somehow playing the game has been construed as scummy, so I've chosen to limit my playing of the game until day 2, only popping in where relevant. Meanwhile at the time of that post, 3 players had 2 or less posts.

[LuckyLuciano]

@113 see 111.

@112 yet again, you are reiterating exactly what I said, as I said it, and then concluding that I said the opposite.

[Aloratom]

@113 see 111.

@112 yet again, you are reiterating exactly what I said, as I said it, and then concluding that I said the opposite.

1) So the easier points deserve less Town cred.

2) Mafia are more likely to keep track of where there RVS vote is.

Are those both fair, even if simplistic, representations of what you were saying?

[humaneatingmonkey]

[SE Hat]
Lucky, I get why being under pressure is hard. Unfortunately, being suspect #1 is just part of the game. We all get our turns. A central wagon on D1 will give us all the information we need later on for interactions and reactions.

If you're town, you also get to jump at the people who feel scummiest for being at your wagon. During at this town, you might start town-telling, and you might convince the players to leave you alone for someone better. (or leave a legacy of texts for later days).
If you're town PR, you will be forced to claim at L-1 — and that's avoidable.
If you're scum, this is an opportunity to sniff out PRs and set-up future lynches by interacting with the town.

Inactivity is substandard play, no matter your alignment.
[/SEhat]

However, if you're going to handle this by prod-dodging and waiting for the next day, there won't be a next day. You

will

be flashlynched. I will personally lead your flashlynching. Why? Because you're still my number one suspect, and the game will still be in stand-still without you playing the game with us. It's not like I'll just throw my hands up in the air and say "well then".

[Aloratom]

Are you sure you meant to quote 76 Yooh?

I clicked on it expecting to see something but all I saw was SE responsibilities and remark about avis

Oh it is just SE duties. My bad.

I thought she just want to get "nice score" in there.

What do you mean by the bolded?

[LuckyLuciano]

1) Almost, but not quite. I don't think incorrect reads (the easier ones) deserve any town cred at all. I am saying they don't merit scum cred. Being wrong is null.

2) Yes, because their vote was deliberate and therefore is worthy of occupying some portion of their headspace.

[humaneatingmonkey]

EBWOP: During this, you might start town-telling

[Aloratom]

1) Almost, but not quite. I don't think incorrect reads (the easier ones) deserve any town cred at all. I am saying they don't merit scum cred. Being wrong is null.

2) Yes, because their vote was deliberate and therefore is worthy of occupying some portion of their headspace.

Fair enough. I just wanted to make sure I understood your meaning.

[LuckyLuciano]

Spoiler:

[SE Hat]
Lucky, I get why being under pressure is hard. Unfortunately, being suspect #1 is just part of the game. We all get our turns. A central wagon on D1 will give us all the information we need later on for interactions and reactions.

If you're town, you also get to jump at the people who feel scummiest for being at your wagon. During at this town, you might start town-telling, and you might convince the players to leave you alone for someone better. (or leave a legacy of texts for later days).
If you're town PR, you will be forced to claim at L-1 — and that's avoidable.
If you're scum, this is an opportunity to sniff out PRs and set-up future lynches by interacting with the town.

Inactivity is substandard play, no matter your alignment.
[/SEhat]

However, if you're going to handle this by prod-dodging and waiting for the next day, there won't be a next day. You

will

be flashlynched. I will personally lead your flashlynching. Why? Because you're still my number one suspect, and the game will still be in stand-still without you playing the game with us. It's not like I'll just throw my hands up in the air and say "well then".

I don't think you understand my angle here. I'm not

really

prod dodging, nor have I been at any point. I'm hard ignoring you because it's likely you are town tunneling town. I don't believe day one is low-value by nature. I think it becomes low value because town think they can solve the game day one and hard-tunnel for non-reasons, and scum gets to do nothing day one or prod the bad town players into a mislynch. When you start making points worth addressing, I'll address them.

[Elmo TeH AzN]

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[Elmo TeH AzN]

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