Mini 2133: XP Mafia II (Game Over)

[Farkset]

Pink Ball,

May you weigh the pros and cons you see to capturing an individual today?

I'm interested in this, and your comments after pink ball answer

I have my own opinion on the matter too

-Farkran

[Pink Ball]

That question is like so mechanically oriented tho, I think pros and cons have been already discussed

Ask me if I want to capture or not based on said pros and cons and it would be a better question

[Hectic]

For the record, Lady Chloe, my guess for your alt:

You used to train at that administration and then formed a team with those other 3. Ring a bell?

[Farkset]

Ask if I want to capture or not based on said pros and cons and it would be a better question

-Farkran

[Pink Ball]

I think that not capturing has the same vibe that not lynching has. Would you no lynch on D1 because we don't have enough info? No, because the lynch per se is what gives the most info about players.

We capture someone, and then combined with later flips we get better and stronger cases on players' intentions. Not capturing is saving your money under your mattress. Guess what, you're losing money.

[Farkset]

So, you pushed someone to L-1 and they claimed a power role to avoid being captured.
Just like I said would happen.
Have you realized it's a bad idea yet, or are you all still being dense?
This day needs to end, and it should end without without using the capture.
We wait until lynch becomes available.

- Bret

Normally people claim in L-1, because town should only lynch VT at early stage. You can't afford to lose cop when there are like 2 PR in a game. However we are in role madness, where everyone is confirmed to have upgradeable role...
Why would claim be related to capturing? We know that

everyone

here has some sort of role, so why would being power be an argument here. The fact that spring makes mistakes

on daily basis

and claimed for no reason doesn't move my heart.

Hectic,

Vote to end the day. Capturing yields more detriment to town than benefit, specifically the first dayphase.

There is less clear benefit since there are a total of 6 candidates of capture, currently. Town numerically consists of half.

I find that this is a gamestate that benefits mafia.

The whole point of this game is trying to pick members of informed minority. In white flag people don't get any additional information and yet they figure out scum by looking at people votes and relations. They don't just no lynch on each day in apathy, even that the same odds are against them just like in here.
~kerset

[Farkset]

Kerset has no patience and doesn't read discord

Still interested in chloe's comments

-Farkran

[Raya36]

I mean, it's just not an interesting question to answer.
Mafia at it's core is a game that allows scum remove players that are a threat to them. That's the philosophy angle.
I also think having the strongman kill available allows us to use NKA more reliably - we don't have to ask ourselves "is [player] still alive because scum fear some protective role?"
I get the argument for disabling the strongman, though. You wanna do that, go ahead, it's a solid option.

- Bret

I didn't like this. He was asked four times in total I think. "Not an interesting question" is a bad excuse when people ask questions generally to improve their reads. I consider avoiding questions anti-town at best.

OK I've been thinking over some things. First, I change my mind, disable strongman is the way to go. Second, I don't trust Spring's agenda so I'm leaving the quest.

I'm surprised spring never responded to this besides just adjusting his list. Seems out of character to not say anything.

So I think I came up with a game-breaking Train Cop strategy.

No Capture Version
7 players go on the quest
We decided publically who will be the leader. The leader is free to use any action they choose.
The other 6 questers Train
Each of the 6 non-questers is assigned to Train cop one of the (non-leader) questers.

Capture Version
7 players go on the quest including the captured player.
The leader is decided publically and is free to use any action they choose.
The other 5 questers Train
Each of the 6 non-questers is assigned to Train cop the 6 non-captured questers including the leader. (Alternatively one of the questers remains unassigned)

In this way, mafia can't join the quest without being forced to Train! So at least one mafia will have to remain outside of the quest in order to do the kill. And the others inside the quest will not be able to use their abilities! So mafia has to decide to either A) be a part of the quest or B) use their abilities.

While the plan has a lot of flaws I like how ame is persistently trying to find a plan that's pro-town.



@pink ball and @hectic
Why the votes on Pine? Asking pink ball especially

Raya's pretty cool because I like her avatar.

I don't know why but I have this feeling that Fark is scum but it doesn't feel like a genuine thought of mine

This would be a weird thing for scum to say.



Just a thought about spring. He claimed voyeur so he wouldn't get captured. I don't think scum would do that honestly? It's not like it's a lynch. I don't think the benefits from false-claiming would outweigh future problems with it if he was scum. I feel like scum would just accept the roleblock for 1 night? UNVOTE: capture

Is it crude to suggest that I am tempted to not quest simply because Ame is not?

Any reasoning for this or just don't want to?

[springlullaby]

I think that not capturing has the same vibe that not lynching has. Would you no lynch on D1 because we don't have enough info? No, because the lynch per se is what gives the most info about players.

We capture someone, and then combined with later flips we get better and stronger cases on players' intentions. Not capturing is saving your money under your mattress. Guess what, you're losing money.

Pink,

I think that lynch + alignment is what give information.
Lynch is informative only retroactively because alignment is revealed.

Don't you agree?

[springlullaby]

Raya,

Why does my not replying to Ame surprises you?

[Pink Ball]

I think that not capturing has the same vibe that not lynching has. Would you no lynch on D1 because we don't have enough info? No, because the lynch per se is what gives the most info about players.

We capture someone, and then combined with later flips we get better and stronger cases on players' intentions. Not capturing is saving your money under your mattress. Guess what, you're losing money.

Pink,

I think that lynch + alignment is what give information.
Lynch is informative only retroactively because alignment is revealed.

Don't you agree?

Yes, but if the captured player's alignment is revealed later either because gets lynched or vigged or nightkilled, it adds more information too.

I'm talking way ahead, like let's say D4. "Hey Pink why the fuck did you vote capture on Pine when spring was the main wagon and she was scum with a powerful role, were you trying to derail the wagon?". Fuck yeah you got me, you got me good.

While no capturing has no risks, it has no risks for scum either. You give scum the space to not give info that could be damning later.

[Hectic]

@pink ball and @hectic
Why the votes on Pine? Asking pink ball especially

Honestly, I thought it'd be funny to instantly move my vote after saying I was very unlikely to ever change from springlullaby.

But also, Pine asked to keep stuff game-related and relevant because he wanted to be active this game, and it very much had been up to that point, yet he's still been on hiatus.

[Hectic]

HURT: End Day

[Hectic]

Pros of Capturing:

• Can examine wagons/votes for later.
  
• Capturing scum blocks their ability.

Cons of Capturing:

• Potential to block town PRs, or force them to claim.
  
• Wagon information is less useful as it's not that harmful for scum to bus.
  
• No information from a flip.

I think we No Capture.

[Raya36]

Raya,

Why does my not replying to Ame surprises you?

Because of the way you were playing before. Any mention of not joining the quest or anything negative towards you being leader got a response from you. And you were constantly trying to convince people to join. Seems a bit odd that when someone leaves and says they don't trust you you just take them off the list and leave it at that. Although I will admit you did tone that down a lot. But no response at all?

List of some of the posts you do what I mentioned above
208
213
224
235
302
305
344
400

[Pink Ball]

Pros of Capturing:

• Can examine wagons/votes for later.
  
• Capturing scum blocks their ability.

Cons of Capturing:

• Potential to block town PRs, or force them to claim.
  
• Wagon information is less useful as it's not that harmful for scum to bus.
  
• No information from a flip.

I think we No Capture.

Hmmm didn't think about the bus part, you're right about that

[Raya36]

@pink ball and @hectic
Why the votes on Pine? Asking pink ball especially

Honestly, I thought it'd be funny to instantly move my vote after saying I was very unlikely to ever change from springlullaby.

But also, Pine asked to keep stuff game-related and relevant because he wanted to be active this game, and it very much had been up to that point, yet he's still been on hiatus.

This is not unlike Pine though

[Raya36]

Pros of Capturing:

• Can examine wagons/votes for later.
  
• Capturing scum blocks their ability.

Cons of Capturing:

• Potential to block town PRs, or force them to claim.
  
• Wagon information is less useful as it's not that harmful for scum to bus.
  
• No information from a flip.

I think we No Capture.

I don't think any town power role should claim over a role block.

[Farkset]

You forgot about xp drain. When scum gets captured they lose all xp and they can't gain this on n1. On n2 they need to train, so it disables their killing abilities them up to n3.
It's main advantage is that it narrows down people capable of nighkilling.
~Kerset

[Hectic]

You forgot about xp drain. When scum gets captured they lose all xp and they can't gain this on n1. On n2 they need to train, so it disables their killing abilities them up to n3.
It's main advantage is that it narrows down people capable of nighkilling.
~Kerset

Very good point. I'm back on the Capture Train!!!!!!

HURT: Flight of the Conchords

[Hectic]

VOTE: END DAY

Why are you for ending the day over capturing any of your scumreads?

[springlullaby]

You forgot about xp drain. When scum gets captured

they lose all xp

and they can't gain this on n1. On n2 they need to train, so it disables their killing abilities them up to n3.
It's main advantage is that it narrows down people capable of nighkilling.
~Kerset

Remarkable proficiency of knowledge on how many starting XP mafia get.

Also,

----Free for all translation----

Farkscum: FEAR FEAR, YOU SHALL FEAR THE NK
Farkscum: ONLY CAPTURE SHALL SAVE YOU FROM IT
Farkscum: Even if there is 3 scums, so realistically it won't do shit even if town hits scum
Farkscum: As the two other buddies can carry out the kill anyway

Farkscum: BUT YOU SHALL FEAR THAT NONENSE I'M SPOUTING OUT

[springlullaby]

VOTE: END DAY

Why are you for ending the day over capturing any of your scumreads?

^
Scum who doesn't read the thread.

[springlullaby]

Raya,

Why does my not replying to Ame surprises you?

Because of the way you were playing before. Any mention of not joining the quest or anything negative towards you being leader got a response from you. And you were constantly trying to convince people to join. Seems a bit odd that when someone leaves and says they don't trust you you just take them off the list and leave it at that. Although I will admit you did tone that down a lot. But no response at all?

List of some of the posts you do what I mentioned above
208
213
224
235
302
305
344
400

I addressed the issue with AME once, and despite the smear campaign some people *coughsHecticoughs* who characterize me as some sort of tyrannical beast, I don't pester people, just make sure they notice, and address the plan I wish to make happen. And I'm open to discussion.

[Farkset]

Well i was going to wait for lady chloe but this is taking a turn for the worse so i feel i need to step in now.

1) Capturing doesn't force anyone to claim. You are not removed from the game if you don't, you just lose 1 xp, up to 2 considering that you cannot train if you wanted to. Spring claimed on her own, and that was a terrible claim both in timing and nature. Voyeur is an uncommon enough role to assume no counterclaim would happen, and a weak enough role to validate surviving n1.

2) I find it very unlikely that a town PR only costs 1 xp to upgrade, even if it is a bad role. She said she misread, but then she never claimed the correct amount. After claiming role and xp, there was nothing to prevent her from telling the whole truth.

3) Spring votes end day in 664 after calling multiple people scum with great conviction. Inconsistent and survivalistic, and the timing of the vote sounds like sheeping chloe. This is reason A for believing spring is being either defended by scum or TMIed town, but scum is more likely

4) Post 651 is incredibly lamisty and assumes people have forced spring into a claim. It is not true. This is reason B.

I can compromise capturing conchord or chloe if not spring. I'm not voting day end to avoid wagonomics.

-Farkran