Doubles Mafia Day 2/ Day 2

[Trojan Horses]

@Baezu, any thought on anyone other than Vecna?

[We are not helping]

I think this game would be better if everyone just smoked a bag of weed before posting. Especially RC and mastina.

-bitmap

[Baezu]

Wow a whole bag?!

[Trojan Horses]

Spoiler:

[Baezu]

@Baezu, any thought on anyone other than Vecna?

Maybe LieRen is other scum

Everyone else looks pretty town to me atm

[Trojan Horses]

Elmo Teh Azn, Ellitell

[Elmo TeH AzN]

Hey, I've been asked to monitor the thread because it's getting toxic right now. I have not (nor do I have time to) read everything atm, but I would like to remind everyone of the most important rule:

1. Don't be a dick.

Stay pretty, and remember that Jingle loves you.

TRASH PANDA!

[Trojan Horses]

Lie Ren could definitely be scum. I'm not really seeing much town motivation or scumhunting in their posts. A lot of coasting-esque posts. A lot of useless posts/active posting. 1114 was bad. Not really any thought to the reads.
My only concern is, knowing that Gamma is behind the alt, that it's just his awkwardness coming off as scumminess.

UNVOTE:

I still don’t know who to vote for but I don’t think I want to vote for Cakez anymore.

~N

[Trojan Horses]

Hey, I've been asked to monitor the thread because it's getting toxic right now. I have not (nor do I have time to) read everything atm, but I would like to remind everyone of the most important rule:

1. Don't be a dick.

Stay pretty, and remember that Jingle loves you.

TRASH PANDA!

Do you literally have nothing else to contribute?

[farside]

Auro in his own words doesn't care about other people's reads if they conflict with his own.

Why don't you ask Nancy if she gets this feeling from me as a hydra?
I don't see where I said I don't care about other reads if they conflict with mine. Is this about my scumreading Sushi while NSG "hard townreads" (she doesn't) him?

Why is TH making work for people?

???

You're asking people to link stuff. I don't see any problem with it.

-Stuxnet

@RC, I would not hydra with anyone who completely disregarded my opinions or reads. I think you would know that from your experience hydraing with me.

@Farside, what exactly is your issue with that?

Why is TH making work for people?

???

Your asking for meta reads from cakez.
Do you think his reads are wrong? You may have said what your reads are but i dont recall so would you mind saying who your scum reading?

I asked both Vecna and Cakez to link one of their scumgames. What is your issue with that?

Well it looks like you are just doing busy work. I don't understand the Mastina town read or the cakez scum read you had.
I typically read past games from players myself because I've seen players in the past cherry pick a few game they know won't match there current game so I never trust people to link games.
Also once upon a time when I placed as scum I asked people to link games for me to look like I was scum hunting so it just reads as nonsense work in my mind.
I mean I took about 20 minutes to look at Mastina's past games and I don't really see how this game compares to her most current games. She litterally is just throwing shit to see what sticks and is trying to start antagonizing players. There is really nothing town about that.

[SirCakez]

Trojan are you unvoting me just because I'm willing to explore Lie Ren!scum or are there other reasons?

[SirCakez]

Baezu please don't replace out

[farside]

This is just a ftr thing.
I quoted a majority of TH calling Mastina town but I don't see a good reason other then tone......which in a game where all you are doing is posting tone is a pretty silly thing to say.
TH was on my list early, mostly just pushing for cakez, asking others for there views and I don't really see a big scum push coming from him.
In the spoiler is just a good amount of where he talks about Mastina I kept seeing him interject when I was asking Mastina questions and I had it noted to check into his post later when I had time.

Spoiler:

Also, I be lazy as fuck.
Stuxnet uses mostly proper capitalization and such, but does use abbreviations and emotes and uses ':3' which narrows it down a lot but I be too lazy to think about scummers who fit that.
zeus refuses to use proper capitalization and such, is casual, uses chatspeakesque abbreviations, which narrows it down a lot but I be too lazy to think about scummers who fit that.

If I put in the effort to think about scummers who're active and on Krazy's mafiascum discord (because let's face it, 80% of hydras come from conversations on there anyway especially anonymous ones), just that criteria would be enough to narrow it down especially if I sifted through the logs of the main channel to find people who were chatting with each other and express the interest of "we should hydra together". Would be really really easy to do, it'd just require a shitload of effort and again, I be lazy as fuck.

I like the way you think! \o/

b/c why would u sheep mastina ever? That's asking for town to lose aka scum win con.

I respect Mastina, and I agree with her explanations for reads. Which reads of hers do

you

disagree with and additionally think she has bad reasons for?

Just buddying no scumhunting

I saw. And scumreading someone intentionally, blatantly doing this for this at this stage of the game is level-0 scumhunting.[/quote]

I’m confused by the question. Are you saying SirCakez is not posting anything or that he is going after someone who has not posted anything?

I am saying that as scum, it's arguably higher payoff to feign scumhunting over waiting for RC/Mastina/Mysterious three head hydra to pounce on a weak townie, when the lack of posting would make them a weak townie anyways.

Thank you. I went back to her readslist to check for slots which were outside null and didn't post by that point.

We are not helping

jjh

DrDolittle

SirCakez

Elmo teh AzN

gobbledygook
Baezu
Amrun
northsidegal
Shuichi Saihara

Jormungand
Lie Ren
BBMolla
Wonderwall

Bernadetta

Trojan Horses

RadiantCowbells

Locktown, strong town, weak town, null, scum.

So the non-posters were divided into "weak town" and "null", interesting.
Mastina, on what basis did you bucket non-posters to weak town?

Okay, so far I’m liking Mastina, Gobbles and jjh for town.

~Nimda

mastina explanation of reads was trash.

Which explanations specifically do you think were trash?
All of them?

We are not helping
jjh
DrDolittle

SirCakez
Elmo teh AzN

gobbledygook
Baezu
Amrun
northsidegal

Shuichi Saihara

Jormungand
Lie Ren
BBMolla
Wonderwall

Bernadetta
Trojan Horses
RadiantCowbells

Locktown, strong town,

weak town

, null, scum.

I look at the people who haven't posted.

I analyze what I know about the players in question

, and then I decide if their lack of posting is something more likely to be from town or scum or if it is null.

I don't remember the scummer that Suichi was revealed to be, tho. So, in theory, yes, I know, I have the information in the depths of my brain.

In reality, no

, because I forgot.

SirCakez is also pretty damn painfully obviously town. His contributions, his analysis, his thoughts, his process, his aura, everything he is doing, pushing, just feels like it is in the right mindset, where even if his reads/reasons aren't right, their sincerity and genuineness means it's probably not from him as scum. Admittedly, he's a strong scum player, but I just don't think what he's doing is him as scum.

Mastina, I'd like you to elaborate on this read. Seeing as most of the game finds him obvtown I might be wrong and just not seeing it, but can you actually show sincerity/genuineness in his posts that's not trivially faked by scum? Can you put his mindset into words and show me how that's very likely to be a town one?

Okay but that wasn't really true either.
And what made them difficult to read if not density?
I don't think this point is super important but I do think it's bizarre.

Did you stop sheeping mastina before or after it was pointed out that scum might do this?

Perhaps your quote walls where you had many one-liner replies which didn't really say anything <- which I termed fluff.

Lol no, I stopped sheeping mastina when I started pursuing my own leads. I know Mastina could do that as scum.
I still however did like her explanations at that point of time for a number of slots, even if they were feeble and off one post.
I had assumed non-posters were in her null pile and didn't notice she was weak townreading non-posters till that was pointed out in thread.
As a note, she hasn't appeared yet and she should respond to the question about your placement on her list.

Even if she cannot put her mindset into words, I want to see her attempt at doing so.

Dear Lie Ren,

What is the logic behind the scumcase on me?

I recall thinking the idea of you, jjh, and mastina being scum made sense. Now, I'm not as sure. I still kinda think you're scummy, though.

Also I see some others are FoSing me, will be interesting to see what that's about.

Can you tell me the reasons for thinking jjh and Mastina are scummy?

~N

I sense that they're not interacting with each other in good faith, in a way that feels like scum partners currently.

Mastina isn’t an easy read but she seems to be pretty genuine here, where she seems kind of off as scum.

SirCakez is also pretty damn painfully obviously town. His contributions, his analysis, his thoughts, his process, his aura, everything he is doing, pushing, just feels like it is in the right mindset, where even if his reads/reasons aren't right, their sincerity and genuineness means it's probably not from him as scum. Admittedly, he's a strong scum player, but I just don't think what he's doing is him as scum.

Mastina, I'd like you to elaborate on this read. Seeing as most of the game finds him obvtown I might be wrong and just not seeing it, but can you actually show sincerity/genuineness in his posts that's not trivially faked by scum? Can you put his mindset into words and show me how that's very likely to be a town one?

If Mastina is town as a lot of people seem to think wouldn't this point to her distancing from cake therefore cake scum?

Why does town!Mastina distance from ANYONE? Why would town!ANYONE do that?

I honestly think Trojan actually has been putting in some serious work, I have a solid townread on them now

Can I get some details here?

I honestly think Trojan actually has been putting in some serious work, I have a solid townread on them now

Can I get some details here?

I'm also interested in this. I'm clearly not taking this game super seriously... I am doing some amount of solving though but I'm curious to hear about what you mean by "serious work".

When I say "serious work", I don't mean actual game solving effort. I just liked the direction they were going and how they were interacting with me. Essentially they shaped up.

I would still like some specifics. I'm wondering how you came to this conclusion based on what they posted between A and B, and also whether you can convince me they're not scum.

Mastina isn’t an easy read but she seems to be pretty genuine here, where she seems kind of off as scum.

Oh that's a really good way of describing it yeah.

As scum I've tried a lifetime to not feel "off" to myself but to this day, never had a scumgame where I didn't feel 'off'. And when I can tell I am 'off' as scum, I can tell that others can tell, too.

Similarly so for as town. Like this game, I can recognize I'm not the normal town mastina but can still feel that I'm *a* town mastina and am not 'off' to a degree where scumreads on me should exist. They shouldn't.

This is also a mastina scumpost. I believe I recall some game where she went on and on about excuses why she didn't match up to her normal self but was totally town, possibly in the absence of anyone pressing her on it.

Mastina talks about her meta all the time, this is NIA for her, she is tonally town. I have never seen her effectively fake that in any game where I’ve played with scum!her.

The TL'DR portion is I see only a small about of pushing of a scum read and lot of busy work from TH that has him as a scum read.

[Elmo TeH AzN]

Do you literally have nothing else to contribute?

I do Just don't see the point as the game I am in is in night. I mean I can go back and read the past 9 pages I miss while I sleep.

Ill have my reads when the game opens up tomorrow after I see the NK as I'm quite curious what is going to happen with it. Speculation is always fun.
Its one of those if X happens I believe Y. But that's also to the fact in any big game like this I am just following along day one.

[Trojan Horses]

Well it looks like you are just doing busy work. I don't understand the Mastina town read or the cakez scum read you had.
I typically read past games from players myself because I've seen players in the past cherry pick a few game they know won't match there current game so I never trust people to link games.
Also once upon a time when I placed as scum I asked people to link games for me to look like I was scum hunting so it just reads as nonsense work in my mind.
I mean I took about 20 minutes to look at Mastina's past games and I don't really see how this game compares to her most current games. She litterally is just throwing shit to see what sticks and is trying to start antagonizing players. There is really nothing town about that.

I think it's borderline disingenuous to call our play busywork after simply picking out instances where one head asks people to link their scumgames, farside. This is NAI, and a prominent feature in Nancy's towngames. Cherry-picking games is a risky move when there are a bunch of other slots who are familiar / might check out your scumgames for themselves. I tend to trust most people on self-meta / self-linking generally because it's a bad cost-benefit to lie about it. Why are you ignoring the rest of the work my slot put in, instead to just focus on one specific behavior and imply us scummy for it?

Both Nancy and I maintain that Mastina is not only town but obviously town. Mastina talked about her own meta, and I trust her I joke, but yeah - I think her general demeanor comes a lot more often from town!Mastina. What she's doing seems like a shitty strategy as scum in a playerlist full of players who already seem to dislike her. I don't think she flail-quickhammers as scum, as Mastina doesn't seem like the kind who'd do that. I don't think scum!Mastina fears pushes on her so much that she'd lolhammer town (which seals her fate the next day). It's kind of obvious she's not been "checking the Mafia PT" getting signals from her partner to hammer. Her reads almost all match with mine, on WANH, Gobble, Baezu, Vecna, etc. Where did you get the feeling she's throwing shit to see what sticks? She's been throwing a

lot

which doesn't stick, and despite that keeps going on, yeah? I'd appreciate it if you can explain it in detail! I agree that it's not pro-town to antagonize players, and yet, town can behave in an anti-town fashion and still be town.

I have explained my prior ScumCakez read in detail (although I'm beginning to feel considerably better on the slot, but still not a townread personally). Which parts of it do you not fail to grok? Or did you mean you townread him strongly? If so, can you explain why he's convincingly likely town?

@SirFakez: Nancy doesn't wanna vote you I'm willing to move on to the next wagon anyway.

-Stuxnet

[farside]

Th: lets see she used old meta to call me scum.
She just changed saying she wanted to see more from the player without waiting even a day for that player to respond. She suddenly changed her mind. Did you read why it changed, her read on jjh?
Why would someone like mastina vote a player that 2 other of her scum reads are voting?
You think that makes sense?
If so why?
Also i went through a majority of you post and i would say 80% is filler question and responding to players in a game.

[Vecna]

It could be scum being upset about being wagoned for the wrong reasons, but this feels a bit bigger than that.

Well. If it helps. I can link to every scumgame of mine played pretty much ever and you can go searching in them for bouts of anger and what they are about.

I can also point out at least four (I think it might actually be five) examples of town anger off the top of my head for comparison to said scum bouts.

Easy enough to do.

That sounds like a lot of work

[SirCakez]

Trojan are you unvoting me just because I'm willing to explore Lie Ren!scum or are there other reasons?

Stuxnet what's your response to this? Is it just that Nancy doesn't want to vote me?
Join the Vecna wagon!

[Vecna]

People are just too hesitant to townread people for obviously towny shit.

Or maybe scum doesn't want that happening in this White Flag-ish game where PoEs can be brutal to them.

This, too.

But bombshell time.

In your game.

Which slots do you think are the ones who have been the most vocal in stopping the town cohesion, of stopping townreads, of trying to break townblocs?

You're quite correct in the analysis of, scum don't want people to get a townbloc going because PoE will be brutal to the scum.
So which slots in your game do you think have tried to break unity, to break the townbloc?
Do you think We Are Not Helping is dissolving town unity?
Do you think you are dissolving town unity?
Do you think Vecna is dissolving town unity?
Do you think SirCakez is dissolving town unity?
Do you think Baezu is dissolving town unity? (I'll answer this one, no, by virtue of her being too inactive and passive to do so.)
Do you think Lie Ren is dissolving town unity? (Same as Baezu above to be honest.)
I realize by this metric I also have to ask if you think the GIF slot has dissolved town unity and per the metric above, the answer is obvious (no), but honestly in my earlier readslist he probably should be above Shuichi anyway.

So in your game.
Do you think anyone could be trying to break town unity.
Other than Shuichi and RadiantCowbells?

too simplistic analysis though. We are not helping and Cakez have completely opposite reads to what youre trying to suggest here. And interestingly enough, neither schuichi nor RC are trying to capitalize on it majorly (yet?)

[Vecna]

Ergo, RadiantCowbells is scum, because he is playing to the scum wincon of preventing town cohesion.

thing is, he's sorta been putting up a weak show about it
i expect town RC to go all in on scumreading us,

but

, wouldn't scum RC cause up a major stink about all of this to break up town cohesion if it threatened him?
like he's mildly asked Oka to help him (sheep onto Vecna I guess) and is pretty laid back

Holy fuck.

How can ANYONE be fucking scumreading this slot?

Pearl after pearl of brilliant, solid town logic, genuine analysis.

(im not sure I agree with the conclusion since scum RC does build up and takes it very easy on D1, but thats besides the point. RC is great enough at scum to do exactly the right things to get majorly townread and antagonizing enough as town to get the suspicious people pinged hardcore)

[Vecna]

And there's your problem with understanding his thoughts. If you assume he is town, then you can't understand his thoughts, you can't see a trajectory to them.
If you assume he is scum, then his thoughts make perfect sense and there is a clear trajectory to them.

This is also an impossible post to make as town. It is extremely common for people to not understand my reads as town and if anything I go out of my way to make my thought progressions more palatable as scum. Mastina never understands my reads as town. She cannot accuse me of this while playing honestly.

truth, in my experience

Ill just keep flip-flopping on RC the entire game as I usually do. For my own sanity

[Vecna]

There still is this alternate reality where youre doing your scum masterpiece this game, then I come in here and lockscum your partner in -Shuichi or Lie Ren- and you have to fight me over it, but in a subtle way where you put me up as the D2-D3 lynch.

It's amazing that you come so close to the answer on RC and then don't have the magical, "hey, waaaaaait a sec..." realization on him.

To be fair, I have succesfully mislynched RC in every game he was town together with me, so yeah, I take that shit a lot more cautiously.

And you portraying this situation like theres such an easy distiction between his town and scum game? What a load of nonsense, ive seen him as scum mislead you plenty of times.

[Vecna]

If mastina's posts addressed to TH are scum distancing, I have to admit it's pretty good distancing.

VOTE: Vecna

ho-ho look at this

[Trojan Horses]

Th: lets see she used old meta to call me scum.
She just changed saying she wanted to see more from the player without waiting even a day for that player to respond. She suddenly changed her mind. Did you read why it changed, her read on jjh?
Why would someone like mastina vote a player that 2 other of her scum reads are voting?
You think that makes sense?
If so why?
Also i went through a majority of you post and i would say 80% is filler question and responding to players in a game.

She used old meta to call you scum, but also acknowledged that it was biased and unreliable. I don't see why that's such a big deal, honestly. I don't believe it's scummy to have that feeling influence her read at least a little.
Yes, I think that makes sense. It's fine to hold two individual scumreads and vote for one of them despite the other scumread also voting them. I read why it changed. She initially townread him; jjh did nothing to keep that read strong, and from her PoV kept prodging and promising to play the game without follow-through. She's also been behaving rather emotionally, that probably factors into her actions as well.

Okay, sure, 80% of my play is filler/responses. I think that's a terrible assessment about my play, but I won't engage on that. I simply think you don't understand the intent behind most of my questions if you think they're filler, because I feel that each one of them has helped in some form.

I'll be toning it down for a while though, so that should make you happy!

@SirFakez: Yes, Nancy thinks you're town and doesn't want to vote you and that's all to it. I won't be joining the Vecna wagon for the same reasons you don't want to join a Sushi wagon, except stronger. Vecna's been at L-1. You've already gained reactions from seeing him there - my defense of him, and Mastina's defense of him.

@Vecna: I have a couple more mildly spicy takes. I am beginning to feel that SirFakez' desperation for a lynch could perhaps be town-indicative. Even after pushing him for it he continued behaving in that manner, and this was at a point where he wasn't in immediate danger of being lynched. It's something that would be somewhat scummy in hindsight on town flips, and therefore unnecessary. I'm also feeling Elmo's carefree post about how fun it is speculating about the NK while offering no stances is slightly towny!

-Stuxnet

[Vecna]

"you don't understand" and "i don't want to work with you" both are but excuses.
There is no gamestate reason for LyLo Ren to be town; a gamestate with Trojan!scum can easily have him as scum too.
So, yaeh, as far as current info goes that's a bad read

At this point in the game it is correct for me to treat Lie Ren as town and work with him because he is not unlikely to bus if he is scum himself in this situation whereas you are incredibly unlikely to vote scum whether scum or town.

If youre treating scum as town youve effectively halved your chances of finding scum/the partner.

Townreading someone because they might bus if you do find the partner? What?