Newbie 1996: GAME OVER

[Yooh]

Top page cuz I'm the star today.

I hate you.
Panda.

[Elmo TeH AzN]

Votecount 2.2

Kirari Momobami (2)

- Yooh, humaneatingmonkey,

Yooh (1)

- Kirari Momobami,

Not Voting (4)

- , 3Bounty, HoldenGolden, Clidd, LuckyLuciano

With 7 players alive it takes 4 votes to lynch.

Deadline is in (expired on 2020-04-26 09:10:00)

[Kirari Momobami]

It's 100% 3bounty and Kirari

Why do you scumread 3b? He probably has the towniest tone in the whole game

[Kirari Momobami]

If you wanted better reasoning for alora votes, yooh, why are you fosing the person that agreed with you yesterday? Like if you thought alora was a mislynch yesterday, you needed to say so. "Give me 1 day right before deadline" is not a compelling argument when there's been little content from you for most of the dayphase. If you agree holden's vote is kinda sus, why are you pushing the only other slot that had been interested in holden?

[Kirari Momobami]

I wasn't saying you were scum for lack of atw, I said you were scum for saying you took 2 hours on a post when I kinda didn't believe that really hsppened. Also it's not like alora being dead means yo need to stop talking about the case on him. If anything this is a better gamestate because now you know that the people who sat on alora all dayphase were sitting on a town wagon. Like be annoyed at me for deciding to finally advance the game, sure, but if you actually want me to believe you're annoyed at me because you wanted to push people leading the alora wagon you need to do a much better job of convincing me those are real thoughts or concerns you have, because it's all news to me so far.

[Kirari Momobami]

VOTE: holden.

This is the wagon you wanted then, yooh? If so why did you have 0 reaction to me saying holden was in my solve even after you started pushing me?

[Kirari Momobami]

"I townread monkey so I think there's two on wagon" is a much townier way to say that then quoting the wagon and saying "2 scum here"

Those are very different thought processes

[humaneatingmonkey]

Yoooh is probably town. I think highest hit % is on the Alo wagon. The build up was too fast to be all town on there.

Yoooh is probably town. I think highest hit % is on the Alo wagon. The build up was too fast to be all town on there.

so who are you voting for scummy boy?

Waiting on Holden to post something.

Kirari, if you think this is town and you are town, something's wrong with you.

[Kirari Momobami]

I would literally be doing the same thing if I didn't get pushed to l1 so I see exactly where he's coming from tbh

[humaneatingmonkey]

Then why do you scumread Yooh for literally the exact same thing?

3bounty being scum is also subtext. He just got off a day where town lost a VT and a TPR, and his scumreading mood is heavily-dependent on HoldenGolden's reaction to get a feel of the town before he interjects. The "towniest tone" would be Yooh or clidd whose eager to find scum and share their thoughts over the night.

[Kirari Momobami]

Yooh isn't chilling and waiting for the slots that should have the most interesting development today, he's pushing me and claiming to have spent 2 hours on a post that so far can be summarized as 'holden scummy' which is the point I was making which he has also chosen to ignore.

How is yooh "eager" to share his thoughts over night? How is clidd? Clidd has done little today and yooh basically did nothing until I cased him, at which point we learned he can wallpost relatively quickly.

What are you talking about "scumreading mood"? The push on me has a lot of noise and holden slot is one of the slots that *should* be more interesting going into today given his trajectory on alora.

I would believe you are scum much more quickly than I'd believe bounty atm, his pov makes sense, you keep trying to force scummy agendas where there aren't any in what could be bad scumhunting but could also be scum oversimplifying the game. There's nothing scummy in being curious about holden's piv here. The *lack of interest in holden when he claims that's what he wrote a 2 hour post about* is what is scummy about yooh's play today.

Like say you actually spent two whole hours writing a post about why holden is scummy. Then someone else gets hammered. Do you... Just stop caring about holden the next day? Sorry but no, especially if what you're doing instead is pushing the only person in the game that agrees with you

[Kirari Momobami]

My problem is there's worlds where yooh as town oversells how long he spent on the post and his convictions he expressed in them, but if so lying about his eod post is scummy and starting today blaming a player for himself not checking if the thread is locked is very, very untownie

[Kirari Momobami]

Start reading again where i left, but answering one I saw

https://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?ti ... _1750-1999
HEM game is literally the newest on the wiki.

I know this is directed to Lucky, but I questioned this also. That's answering my curiosity.

Like let's look at what was actually posted. 4 hours pass after he says he was reading again and this is all he said in that time. He did not ask for alora to be moved off of l1 and he did not say he was townreading alora. so if he was townreading alora before his catchup and didn't want a hammer for that reason, then there's literally nothing indicating that was the case.

There's also no indication he *ever* spends 2 hours writing a post on day 1... And if he did, there's no indication of why he would do so. To ask for further explanation of the push at deadline? If he was unsatisfied with the answers, he had the entire preceding dayphase to do so because the alora wagon was very old and very stale

[Kirari Momobami]

Phone posting, just get back home but please give me 24 hours, i still want to post and read things

I'll wait and consider. Can't promise everyone else will tho.
Also if Kir hammers right now that looks baaaaad

Monkey here's a counter-argument for you

who died because of this post, because scum planned for me to be pushed today, and killing who allows him to be the scapegoat for the push today if I flip town

If so, why did you start today doing basically exactly what scum wanted to happen?

[Yooh]

If you wanted better reasoning for alora votes, yooh, why are you fosing the person that agreed with you yesterday? Like if you thought alora was a mislynch yesterday, you needed to say so. "Give me 1 day right before deadline" is not a compelling argument when there's been little content from you for most of the dayphase. If you agree holden's vote is kinda sus, why are you pushing the only other slot that had been interested in holden?

I'm not saying Holden's reason of vote is scummy, because I don't even understand why he placed the vote in there. I'm saying everyone in Aloratom's wagon have weak votes that I don't even understand.

I wasn't saying you were scum for lack of atw, I said you were scum for saying you took 2 hours on a post when I kinda didn't believe that really hsppened. Also it's not like alora being dead means yo need to stop talking about the case on him. If anything this is a better gamestate because now you know that the people who sat on alora all dayphase were sitting on a town wagon. Like be annoyed at me for deciding to finally advance the game, sure, but if you actually want me to believe you're annoyed at me because you wanted to push people leading the alora wagon you need to do a much better job of convincing me those are real thoughts or concerns you have, because it's all news to me so far.

Fair point but Aloratom can't answer why he did that.

Basically you're asking what I left in day 1. Let's take a look the reason now

Spoiler: Bounty's reason

VOTE: Aloratom

"it was just a test" excuse doesn't sit well. Whether it was ignoring peaches multiple times or voting on my wagon, he used this line. Come to think of it, you can get away with anything with - well actually it was just a test carry on.

Come on, this is soooooo weird conclusion. Why town can't do that?

Spoiler: Clidd's reason

Conclusion: The difficulty of focusing and directing questions in many directions, without frequent development/elaboration, are characteristics of inconsistency that I classify as anti-town, precisely because they are not beneficial, in my opinion, in contributing to the resolution of the game. I did a quick count of the number of question marks he typed in his ISO and the result was approximately 30, almost half of all his posts (65). Unlike Luciano, I believe that his active participation is not as impactful as I would like it to be, because asking many questions without extracting or developing an expressive inference is far from being a towny thing. I believe I cannot feel confident in his slot and it is likely that in the long run this will materialize at a disadvantage not only for me, but for everyone. I took a look at some of his past games, which have been discriminated by Luciano previously, and although this *strangeness* is something he presents in every game, I am not comfortable dealing with it. Therefore, I would say that it is a viable lynch option for today, at least until I engage with other slots.

VOTE: Aloratom

First part that was basically me also. His read progress on Lucky -> Aloratom -> and then just general read. Why Aloratom here? How about Bounty and Who?

Spoiler: Lucky's reason

UNVOTE: InWho22
VOTE: Aloratom

I decided to do some research as to whether he always speaks in a manner that is intentionally obfuscating. After all, he did say that he is communicating the way he is this game deliberately (195). The first thing that popped out when viewing his topics was a mafia PT: https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=94&t=82227. I decided to look there first, because if there is ever a time you would communicate clearly, it's with your known teammates. He speaks very clearly there. He also speaks very clearly in the game itself: https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.p ... er_sort=Go. Of note, is post 12 of the mafia PT,

That's fine with me.

The only Intel I have is on geraintm. He's back after a long break. He's from Wales, so his posts are GMT. He doesn't post during weekends. He was scum in a newbie game I just finished. When he talked it was in a confusing manner.

I don't think it was wholly by design. There was a lot hemming and hawing. Talking but not saying anything. I'll be interested to see if he does that as Town. If so, he's a good lynch candidate.

I looked up that newbie game: https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=50&t=81784. Mafia won a flawless game. While I think geraintm's communication was clearer in that game than Aloratom's is here, he both found it memorable enough to point out in a later mafia PT, and this game he said his confusing language is deliberate, which is backed up by looking at other games he's played. It looks to me like he is trying to imitate a characteristic of a player who perfect gamed him as scum. I don't know why he would imitate this as town, especially when he said in the mafia PT that if geraintm spoke confusingly he would use it to try and mislynch geraintm. There appears to be plenty of motive to imitate this as scum.

This is the first initial Lucky's scumread in Aloratom. I don't get anything about meta but after this meta read. I don't get the problem with how Aloratom is "intentionally obfuscating" because I don't see it. Lucky's read on Aloratom just "Aloratom is getting scummier" until Aloratom voted Monkey. And somehow this is unanswered and Aloratom didn't push to ask anymore if I recall correctly.

This one is an example of his read on Aloratom which I asked clarification to Aloratom but ignored by Lucky

Incident #2. I think that my posts are pretty clear, and I think Alo's other games indicate he's clearly able to understand these posts. I feel that the second part of the post isn't natural. I think it's something you post when you are intentionally misreading someone. I think if you aren't sure that you understand somebody, you probably lead off your post by indicating that you are confused.

I was reading both sentences together to mean that both Town and mafia were losing track of their votes, and it didn't make sense for someone to say that. At first blush the second sentence appeared ambiguous: "I don't think mafia doesn't realize their vote isn't being counted." Now that I've been over it several times, it reads better, but it didn't click initially.

(Screw your ISO man)

Spoiler: Holden's reason

In terms of today's lynch, I'm fine settling with Alo/3b. I think both have some equity for scum with a personal preference for 3b, yet at the time of writing this I'm struggling to remember what Alo has done this game. I would prefer kirari, but I feel the other two would reveal more.

Alo were is your vote from monkey coming from as well?

So why do those things make him scum?

There is 300~ posts between the read list and his posts now? Are you citing his lack of explanation for his read on you (which I think from memory he has discussed you during that time period) or purely the switch?

Do you think that the flip on 3b was faked? Why would scum!monkey be more incline to do that than town!monkey seeing a reason why 3b is scummy after focusing on them? Basically, why is it exclusively scummy for what he did?

Monkey, chill.

There's reasonably discussing someone reads and then there is you being a mock Adam sandler flipping out. I find Alo's case sketchy as well, but throwing counter arguments out like that in tone wont help nobody but scum (unless I'm wrong on you being town in which case good job I suppose?)

VOTE: Alo insert rest of name here

I'm fine with this at this point for the time being.

Alright, one post voting because his action was sketchy when Aloratom voted Monkey, and Holden didn't even remember what Alo did. What happen to the question there?

My problem here Aloratom seemed give up and didn't provide any more answer after he claimed

Spoiler: Kirari's reason

Resolving 3b/alo is probably good for gamestate even if it's a mislynch

But ehh I'm probably not getting my 'slight preference' lynch when I basically have no idea who scum is

Alora's probably a fine lynch for gamestate even as a miss, idk

Alright, so basically you just want to see the flip. What do you get from Aloratom's flip now?

This is a dumb move as either alignment btw, as town your job is to not get lynched for bad reasons and you just eliminated the top reason to not hammer you

If you're going to present the person with the hammer as a counter-wagon you just die, that's why monkey's posts here are slimy af. You should have been able to recognize that.

VOTE: aloratom

So you OK with mislynch but end the day earlier when you scum-read in Holden and I requested to not hammer of the day.

"I townread monkey so I think there's two on wagon" is a much townier way to say that then quoting the wagon and saying "2 scum here"

Those are very different thought processes

I literally only quote one vote count there. I don't get how it is different thought processes.

My problem is there's worlds where yooh as town oversells how long he spent on the post and his convictions he expressed in them, but if so lying about his eod post is scummy and starting today blaming a player for himself not checking if the thread is locked is very, very untownie

Alright, how about, if allowed, you try it by the help of moderator? I get it you always post one by one so you won't understand how it can be when you build A FUCKING WALL and it is denied. As I said, after the thread locked and you press submit / preview, it's all gone. Back button become locked thread also and your post is gone. I'm not oversells it, how the fuck I oversells it when I said it is non alignment indicative and you keep asking about it?

Now tell me, why scum-Yooh doing this right now when I said MANY TIMES it is non alignment indicative

?

who died because of this post, because scum planned for me to be pushed today, and killing who allows him to be the scapegoat for the push today if I flip town

Hello? I never said anything about nightkill and this is what you bring? I also can say the same about your posts that baiting PRs to respond. How the hell I plan to push you anyway?

[Kirari Momobami]

I literally only quote one vote count there. I don't get how it is different thought processes.

One of them is arguing PoE and the other is arguing scum agenda, they're very different thought processes

[HoldenGolden]

FYI it is final week(s) for me so activity will wax and wane potentially.

While I do find Kirari scummy, the whole fakeclaim situation doesn't fit for me and I feel the most reasonable reason why Inwho was killed was because he was virtually town-read by everybody day 1 at some point with no strong scum reads forming against them. Scum would have had a hard time forcing a mislynch onto them without over-extending themselves to the point of being easy to read by the rest of town. While I understand the points raised by Cli2d, I find the outlandish and varied claiming by Kirari to not really be efficiently the same as a fakeclaim. The n0 cop and mass mason posts both feel sorta obvious that it was a jest while, upon reading Inwho's response, doesn't seem enough was leaked by the claim for scum!kirari to read inwho as a pr solely on that.

I will admit I had secretly pinged Inwho as a PR based on the overall tone they projected constantly, so I think it is possible for scum to pick up on the pr tells, thought with the townreads as well there is too much speculation to go off of to directly link Kirari to the kill.
------------------------------------------------------------------------

Meanwhile I am quite honestly confused given how this day is going. I like the Kirari lynch, but the entire thread seems hell bent on lynching her. This is alarming because if she is scum:

1) her partner is death-bussing her:

Spoiler:

I do not see the need to bus her this early into the day phase. Scum has a massive tempo advantage as they might now have no PR roles to worry about. Kirari was in a bad spot towards the end of day 1, but not nearly bad enough to warrent such a drastic measure as this. While obviously the partner cannot white-knight scum!Kirari as that would throw away their lead if Kirari does flip here (as it be easier to associate the two together), no one really is cautiously supporting the wagon while providing reads on others to deflect the wagon off scum!kirari. 3b is really the only one offering any sort of counter aggression to the lynch, but shuts down Kirari's out on floof here:

Yoooh is probably town. I think highest hit % is on the Alo wagon. The build up was too fast to be all town on there.

It could be to provide distance, but I think scum!3b along with scum!kirari wouldn't shut down the wagon and force themselves into a position where they are left only voting Alo's wagon. That would mean they are going all in on pushing me this day phase which seems like a suicide mission as what the hell will they do post day 2 if they achieve it? Kirari most likely will get lynched and 3b wouldn't be that far behind.

The fact the game state is so comfortable in this situation when the entire scum team should be trying to pivot this if kirari is scum is alarming and points to kirari actually being town.

Even if you disagree and think Kirari is being death bussed:

2) scum!kirari being lynched is god-awful for scum:

Spoiler:

By having her flip red, the game becomes a lot easier to read. I would move up on peoples town list due to Kirari's read progression on me painting me as town. Her interactions with Monkey today cements him as town too and the casting of shade onto cli2d throughout the game most likely gets him ranked higher too. That makes 3 strong town reads that most people agree with leaving [LL, 3b, Floof] as the last possible scum pool. I think depending on how you read the Floof interaction right now, you could cross Floof off that list making the game nearly impossible for scum to win (unless for some reason Monkey/Cli2d as scum hard pushed their teammate today). Scum would be dying to try and move the lynch as a resort, and quite frankly that is not what has been happening as Kirari is the only one understandably fighting the lynch. Thus, this supports the idea that kirari is town here.

3) Town!Kirari is great for scum to mislynch

Spoiler:

Obviously any mislynch is good for scum, but a kirari mislynch sets up scum in a very strong state to win the whole game. I can see a plan where they mislynch kirari today and then push me off of the suspicions raised during today by both kirari and others, carrying them into mylo/lylo (last lynch). From there, depending on how day 3 plays out and if they lynch me, they might have enough ammo to easily win the game depending on who exactly scum is. This is speculative of course, but since I know my alignment, I do see this gameplan easier. I think too they can spin kirari's posts so far earlier today to even throw shade at HEM and in general remove stronger town reads from everyone's list.

Outside of that, town!Kirari is quite hard to predict so far, and given the high activity, could prove to be a threat to scum. Since the suspicious were decent EoD day 1, I can see why they would push her even if they haven't thought that ahead.

In conclusion,

despite the fact individually I find Kirari's posts scummy, the thread sentiment here makes more sense only if Kirari is town. I doubt scum is willing to risk such a high risk low reward gambit by death-bussing here when they are this ahead in the game, and it makes a lot of sense for town!kirari to be scum's preferred lynch here. Going off this, I think those who are either pushing the wagon without directly taking the reigns of it most likely is the scum driving this. I need to go back throughout today to figure out how everyone's push/read progression has changed before I can feel certain where the scum is.

[Kirari Momobami]

Now tell me, why scum-Yooh doing this right now when I said MANY TIMES it is non alignment indicative?

Scum often emphasize how upset they are about other stuff in the game that actually frustrates them

Actually most scum replace-outs fall along these same lines; "I don't like X, I have a big personality clash with them, replace me" etc. etc. That was actually such a common tactic that the entire site had to make a rule against it.

With that in mind emphasizing how upset you are about your one lost wallpost while pushing me is... like very much consistent with how *a lot* of scum play this game
1) generate AtE about off-topic nonsense
2) sit on a town wagon
3) avoid blowback when it flips green because of 1

Now your last post was a bit better but I still think if you're town you kinda oversold it by saying it was "2 hours" when it almost certainly wasn't. If you said you spent 15 minutes on a post, I'd believe that

[Kirari Momobami]

Hello? I never said anything about nightkill and this is what you bring? I also can say the same about your posts that baiting PRs to respond. How the hell I plan to push you anyway?

btw Yooh not noticing that post was directed at Monkey, not at Yooh, is +1 point cognitive load

[Kirari Momobami]

VOTE: Yooh

I think I'm inclined to disagree with 3B that this slot should be town, I still think he lied about the time it took him to write his EoD post that he lost, suddenly wall-posting in response to my push and also 1 point of cognitive load points to this slot just being scum

[HoldenGolden]

The wave-assault, IE the multiple people pushing reasons why Kirari is scum after the wagon gets to around 3 votes~ is also suspicious too but I digress.
--------------------------
I started with Floof (Yooh) because he was the first on the wagon. I find the vote fine for reasons I will explain latter, but the latest posts have issues.

There is an ironic part of Floof's "why people voted alo" post which is that it only focuses towards the end of day 1 rather than focusing on the entire read progression up to that point. I notice this with my section of his post because it omitted previous posts leading up to that point like:

I'm honestly fine lynching [3b, alo, kirari] atm. Cli2d made me ponder the LL read a bit more and I've concluded that I'm fine seeing him in day 2.

I honestly have passed allowing Kirari/wagon posts like that. I know they arent a serious player, but when I last played with them they displayed more motivation than what I'm seeing here. The whole Masonry read post to me feels incredibly forced and aimless. That's not even getting into the read against me which has diverged into do I meme alot as town now (yes I do). I tried jesting with them to see what they would do, and they havent impressed me much.

People are more than welcome to sway my opinion, but the more this day phase has gone on the more they have dunked down my list.

VOTE: Kirari

and In general my TL -> null -> lynch pool progression as a whole (which is why it is ironic because I feel the read on my from it would be stronger regardless on floofs AI).

I have a concern emerging now with Floof is from the day 1 eod reads post. He admits that he finds the voting logic of the wagon sketchy (all four people not having valid reasons to vote) which is great analysis day 2 since we know that Alo was town. However, he does not develop nor seems interested in pursing the others while pushing it to lynch Kirari. This is problematic to me as the singular focus of Floof's post seems designed to ensure the lynch on Kirari while leaving doors open to push the rest of the Alo wagon day 3 with what seems to be a focus on me somewhat more given how he cited mine earlier.

This may just be my expectations for town, but I would expect a town!floof to be questioning the rest of players and me about their reasons to vote day 1. He clearly is presenting it as something that irked him enough to try and create a WoT (wall of text) during day 1, yet now seems more content with sitting on the information instead of proactively inquiring about it. It makes sense why he voted Kirari eariler today, but doesn't explain why he isn't actively questioning the rest of the players about it while securing the lynch on her.

@Floof/Yooh:

Who do you think is scum here alongside Kirari given your opinion on the alo wagon? Why did you only focus towards the end of the day rather than everyone's progression day 1?

[HoldenGolden]

i'm not hyperconfident that holden is town. i just don't see that you had legitimate reasons for placing your vote on holden there vs. other players or on the current wagon.

Holden just seems significantly less townie than in my last game with him, he has a lot less presence and while I've liked some of his posts and jokes mostly all it amounted in was a scumread on me which means he's like 0% read rate right now

.

He could still be town but right now I kinda feel like there should be 2 scum inside {Holden, Monkey, Yooh} and of those three I'd say you're maybe? a little more likely to be town

So if I'm correct on clidd/LL/3B as a towncore, then the game is solved by lynching in those three. Do you want to argue that any of those three are scum at this point?

Also you be pleased to know that since then i've both powerscum to the point of being town mayor and have played a shitty town game recently. I like to mix it up.

[HoldenGolden]

In fact I'll expand the question to the whole game.

Assuming Kirari is scum here, who is their partner given today's and day 1's interactions? 3b made since until he denied an out for Kirari.

[HoldenGolden]

VOTE: holden.

This is the wagon you wanted then, yooh? If so why did you have 0 reaction to me saying holden was in my solve even after you started pushing me?

Was this a reaction test for Floof/yooh?

[HoldenGolden]

Yoooh is probably town. I think highest hit % is on the Alo wagon. The build up was too fast to be all town on there.

You have seen me post now. Post now.

What do you think of the rest of the wagon on alo then? You admit scum is within that pool and seem to think I am scum while Kirari is town. What about the rest? Throughout day 1 you had alo pinned as scum as well, so can you explain how the build up was "way to fast" for it all to be town there in your eyes?

What do you make about today's lynch given how fast it has build up?