In post 1320, HoldenGolden wrote:Wait LL are you talking 1260 about kirari always being town? I ctrl f your ISO and that's the only instance I sae you posting that kirari is always town.
Pedit: no I didnt I addressed it first thing
I can see the later half of day 1 after cil2d replaces in going either way with his sheep vote onto cil2d. His peaches read progression is more important to me.
Which if you really want more analysis of it im more than happy to provide why that is NAI to me.
So I was intending to sheep Kirari and get my partner lynched? How is that not important to a 3b/Clidd pair? And how is a read progression on a SHEEP vote more important?
Because here is why:
A sheep vote is very noncommittal vote as scum. Literally you can get out of it by saying I now have reasons to suspect X and am no longer lost enough to sheep. You made it very clear that you didnt want to vote peaches eariler, so the sheep vote makes sense. This keeps with the rest of my thought process that you kept peach pseudo scum leaned early on in the since that you threw shade at her with providing ways to get out of it.
The reason I think it is NAI though is because the counter argument that you would provide a more suitable stance to foster more town credit if you scum rather than sheeping. It's a weaker arguement once factoring in the replacement and the voting dynamics, but I am still considering it. Hence why I didnt elaborate on it.
He def appeared super townie D1. Which explains why town is so uncoordinated atm. We are dealing with a strong scum game who knows how to come off as town.
In post 1324, 3bounty wrote:Holden also has a perfect scum spot on the Alo wagon.
Are you going to answer my question of who is my partner or are you going to keep throwing shade at me to discredit my case?
Because countermeasure: off wagon for scum is just as good as on wagon.
Will have to take look a bit later. But you def seem more than capable of bussing or distancing so not sure "who is my partner" really means anything to what I am reading of your alignment right now.
In post 1327, 3bounty wrote:He def appeared super townie D1. Which explains why town is so uncoordinated atm. We are dealing with a strong scum game who knows how to come off as town.
Ok who's my partner then.
Town is uncoordinated, but I feel that's a result of both the tracker claim, day 2 tone in general, and scum now panicking since tracker claim has made everyone expand this POV in a short time.
In post 1324, 3bounty wrote:Holden also has a perfect scum spot on the Alo wagon.
Are you going to answer my question of who is my partner or are you going to keep throwing shade at me to discredit my case?
Because countermeasure: off wagon for scum is just as good as on wagon.
Will have to take look a bit later. But you def seem more than capable of bussing or distancing so not sure "who is my partner" really means anything to what I am reading of your alignment right now.
I saw this after I post. I will take that praise even if it is wrong this game.
HEM was the person I was looking for you to say since eariler you said kirari and me didnt make sense and you had the scum read on him eariler. When you feel like it, feel free to read my ISO and do that case if you see it still.
What is your stance on cli2d and floof? I ask the later given you said 1071 (I think) never comes from town POV.
Do you think kirari can be town here despite you thinking scum was fishing for pr roles day 2?
In post 1324, 3bounty wrote:Holden also has a perfect scum spot on the Alo wagon.
Are you going to answer my question of who is my partner or are you going to keep throwing shade at me to discredit my case?
Because countermeasure: off wagon for scum is just as good as on wagon.
Will have to take look a bit later. But you def seem more than capable of bussing or distancing so not sure "who is my partner" really means anything to what I am reading of your alignment right now.
I saw this after I post. I will take that praise even if it is wrong this game.
HEM was the person I was looking for you to say since eariler you said kirari and me didnt make sense and you had the scum read on him eariler. When you feel like it, feel free to read my ISO and do that case if you see it still.
What is your stance on cli2d and floof? I ask the later given you said 1071 (I think) never comes from town POV.
Do you think kirari can be town here despite you thinking scum was fishing for pr roles day 2?
Yes I think Kirari can be town and the PR stuff were memes. But if she turns out to be scum I won't be surprised. Clidd I can't really get a read on him he seems distant and not focused which makes it NAI to me. Yoooh's gambit only comes from scum unless he is ONE HUNDRED PERCENT sure of Kirari's alignment which I don't see how that can be. But his other posts give townie vibes.
In post 1327, 3bounty wrote:He def appeared super townie D1. Which explains why town is so uncoordinated atm. We are dealing with a strong scum game who knows how to come off as town.
I think I asked this before so if you answered let me know but what made you so confident on me being town day 1 that you were willing to sheep?
Anyway since I actually said I had voted every possible scumteam, I'll go ahead and VOTE: Lucky
To make sure I'm true to my word so that in post-game literally no one can say I didn't consider a scenario :3
I'm sure I get accused of fear-mongering but since LL is never getting lynched today this can just be a functional unvote while I wait for clidd to present his solve. But since two people have said "something feels off" about the game, if I get green-flipped this would be a likely scenario
In the mean time Lucky and one other have acted as though it's a foregone conclusion LL dies tonight when actually he is probably less likely to die after his claim than he was before. This means he probably gets to lead a game-losing mislynch tomorrow, since he knows I never flip scum roleblocker he basically knows with my lynch scum have no actual mechanical incentive to kill him outside of removing the IC. They can easily roleblock him tonight and continue on. The only scenario where LL is guaranteed to die is one where we hit a scum roleblocker today.
So even though I will be accused of fearmongering, this is actually for worlds where LL is alive tomorrow, even though that is the minority scenario (I'd say he has a ~40% chance to be alive tomorrow)
Lucky is probably IC but he is not actually IC. If we are in C then scum know there is no second TPR after jailer. This doesn't match tonally, but his absolutely bizarre play would theoretically make sense:
If anyone ever looks at VCA and I get lynched, you are getting lynched tomorrow for game loss
Unless you are 100% confident on me being scum, you need to take a step back and actually start playing this game in a way that is... good
In this scenario, as scum LL would like to continue mislynching me, but needs something to avoid getting lynched in 5-way. For this reason, he would claim tracker today to sell a world where we are in A when we are really in C.
I don't see this actually being realistic, but I'd rather make sure people have thought about this scenario long enough to dismiss it today rather than tomorrow.
In post 972, LuckyLuciano wrote:I don't equate being wrong with deliberately navigating a newbie game as an experienced player in a way that you know will confuse newbies.
I mean I'm townreading you because I don't think you try to bury the thread in three pages of bloat as a scum tactic in a newbie game
"deliberately navigating a newbie game" = saying townreads are masons and scumreads are "cop guilties" when I make it *painfully* obvious that's what I'm doing is like... a pretty bad faith argument
I really don't get how anyone could take those posts seriously. For the record, the last time I got pushed in this manner, the person pushing me was scum (in Ali v. Titus)
It's a very lamist argument. In this case I think *you* are town but you should maybe appreciate this is an incredibly easy and lazy argument for scum to make?
I guess the question then in a world of LL scum would be why he goes about the fakeclaim in the manner he has. The only conceivable reason would be that as scum he was genuinely tilted at me, maybe for like this post where it implies I think his scum-play is not conducive to fun.
His reaction of being toxic, telling me not to play, saying he wants to throw, etc. etc. then would all kinda match up and would explain why he would claim tracker when it makes basically no sense whatsoever from a town perspective to do so.
Don't get me wrong, I don't think this is in the range of LL's first scumgame at all.
♪Another win
They don't want me to have another win
So I ima make sure I get another win♪
VOTE: Holden L-2, if the next 2 posts are votes for Holden and we lolhammer in 5 posts flat, this game will have been worth it for the memes alone.
WRT me possibly fake-claiming. My opening post was a breadcrumb, because DJ Khaled drops those sick
tracks
.
Due diligence someone should probably ask what the song is, I believe this is a crumb but googling the lyrics I don't actually get how this is a crumb.
Anyway, on that point, I just want to say the following to LL before moving on to one or two of his accusations against me:
In post 1261, LuckyLuciano wrote:Alright, so here's the thing: I could sleep, and probably should since I really hate this game and would replace out if I didn't hate replacements more than I hate this game. However, Kirari has also annoyed me to the point where even though I don't care about winning this game, I do care about seeing him lose and my pettiness knows no bounds. In other words,
1 - You are not mech town, even if I think you're town and no one is arguing you're town
2 - Using a mech claim to get your preferred lynch will almost never work in any game ever, and if it does and you aren't right 100% you will draw a significant amount of ire
3 - Consequently, playing as though you are willing to gamethrow or are no longer playing to wincon is not acceptable, since theoretically we still need to consider the possibility you're scum fakeclaiming as implausible as that may be given your tone here
Frankly I'm inclined to leave my vote on you until you apologize for 1261 since that's just a mean-spirited post that goes entirely against the spirit of the game. If you continue at your current clip, I'll argue more proactively that we're in C and you're scum fakeclaiming which will, incidentally, make it even more likely you are alive tomorrow. So if you want to die tonight, you should at least act like you're willing to play the game in good-faith.
I thought I found town in monkey but not as hard, let me double check
In post 522, Kirari Momobami wrote:Masonry: lucky, alora, 3b, kirari, holdengolden, who
N0 cop guilty: clidd
Ez game
In post 523, Kirari Momobami wrote:My night 0 split parity cop is difference between yoon and monkey but let's focus on the multitasking n0 guilty check first
Since Lucky has asserted that him not understanding how these posts come from a town POV, I guess I can walk everyone through.
In 288, I identify three slots as town. Two of those slots are now flipped town and the other is an uncc'd tpr. Generally, there are two ways you can approach day 1. Day 1 is the hardest day for town since there is less information for town. You can either choose to townhunt, or scumhunt. Generally people do a mix of both, trying to read each slot independently, but there's a legitimate question as to which is better.
Overall on site, the town winrate is very low in the large theme queue and very high in certain open setups, particularly
coalition
. There are two reasons for this: -large themes can have multiball, so scum actually have incentive to legitimately scumhunt, -b, in setups like coalition, town can win the game by exclusively finding town.
Now, let's consider 522 from my POV:
lucky, alora,
3b,
kirari,
holdengolden,
who
From my POV, I so far have been right on 4/4 townreads by post 522 (assuming Lucky is not in the same galaxy of this being a scum gambit since as I indicated above).
From here there's possibilities:
a) 3b and Holden are both scum. In this case, I am having a bad game.
b) there is one scum in 3b and Holden. In this case, I am having a typical game.
c) There is 0 scum in 3b and Holden. In this scenario I solved the game in under 600 posts, since a PoE of 3 is game-winning.
For this reason, I tend to dislike people talking post-game value as a player. I can't say for certain right now which of those three scenarios I'm in right now,
Looking back on some of my posts, I think there were decent reasons to consider Yooh as town. I strongly dislike his play today and his progression on me, but his freak out at me *maybe* makes sense since I did argue that I disbelieved he spent two hours on a post he claims he wrote. Maybe he "feels" like he spent 2 hours and he was speaking to his emotions, but I didn't like the way he was pushing me. Still, if he was town I at least 'get' why he would hyper-tunnel me after that since I knew it was a 'risky' argument.
Holden and 3b are both clutch reads right now. I degraded him as day 1 went on, and have been inclined to upgrade him today. If he's scum, monkey is right that he thought I'd be cleared by the tracker and the lynch would not go through. But nonetheless, I'd still look at this post:
In post 1016, HoldenGolden wrote:FYI it is final week(s) for me so activity will wax and wane potentially.
While I do find Kirari scummy, the whole fakeclaim situation doesn't fit for me and I feel the most reasonable reason why Inwho was killed was because he was virtually town-read by everybody day 1 at some point with no strong scum reads forming against them. Scum would have had a hard time forcing a mislynch onto them without over-extending themselves to the point of being easy to read by the rest of town. While I understand the points raised by Cli2d, I find the outlandish and varied claiming by Kirari to not really be efficiently the same as a fakeclaim. The n0 cop and mass mason posts both feel sorta obvious that it was a jest while, upon reading Inwho's response, doesn't seem enough was leaked by the claim for scum!kirari to read inwho as a pr solely on that.
I will admit I had secretly pinged Inwho as a PR based on the overall tone they projected constantly, so I think it is possible for scum to pick up on the pr tells, thought with the townreads as well there is too much speculation to go off of to directly link Kirari to the kill.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Meanwhile I am quite honestly confused given how this day is going. I like the Kirari lynch, but the entire thread seems hell bent on lynching her. This is alarming because if she is scum:
1) her partner is death-bussing her:
Spoiler:
I do not see the need to bus her this early into the day phase. Scum has a massive tempo advantage as they might now have no PR roles to worry about. Kirari was in a bad spot towards the end of day 1, but not nearly bad enough to warrent such a drastic measure as this. While obviously the partner cannot white-knight scum!Kirari as that would throw away their lead if Kirari does flip here (as it be easier to associate the two together), no one really is cautiously supporting the wagon while providing reads on others to deflect the wagon off scum!kirari. 3b is really the only one offering any sort of counter aggression to the lynch, but shuts down Kirari's out on floof here:
In post 989, 3bounty wrote:Yoooh is probably town. I think highest hit % is on the Alo wagon. The build up was too fast to be all town on there.
It could be to provide distance, but I think scum!3b along with scum!kirari wouldn't shut down the wagon and force themselves into a position where they are left only voting Alo's wagon. That would mean they are going all in on pushing me this day phase which seems like a suicide mission as what the hell will they do post day 2 if they achieve it? Kirari most likely will get lynched and 3b wouldn't be that far behind.
The fact the game state is so comfortable in this situation when the entire scum team should be trying to pivot this if kirari is scum is alarming and points to kirari actually being town.
Even if you disagree and think Kirari is being death bussed:
2) scum!kirari being lynched is god-awful for scum:
Spoiler:
By having her flip red, the game becomes a lot easier to read. I would move up on peoples town list due to Kirari's read progression on me painting me as town. Her interactions with Monkey today cements him as town too and the casting of shade onto cli2d throughout the game most likely gets him ranked higher too. That makes 3 strong town reads that most people agree with leaving [LL, 3b, Floof] as the last possible scum pool. I think depending on how you read the Floof interaction right now, you could cross Floof off that list making the game nearly impossible for scum to win (unless for some reason Monkey/Cli2d as scum hard pushed their teammate today). Scum would be dying to try and move the lynch as a resort, and quite frankly that is not what has been happening as Kirari is the only one understandably fighting the lynch. Thus, this supports the idea that kirari is town here.
3) Town!Kirari is great for scum to mislynch
Spoiler:
Obviously any mislynch is good for scum, but a kirari mislynch sets up scum in a very strong state to win the whole game. I can see a plan where they mislynch kirari today and then push me off of the suspicions raised during today by both kirari and others, carrying them into mylo/lylo (last lynch). From there, depending on how day 3 plays out and if they lynch me, they might have enough ammo to easily win the game depending on who exactly scum is. This is speculative of course, but since I know my alignment, I do see this gameplan easier. I think too they can spin kirari's posts so far earlier today to even throw shade at HEM and in general remove stronger town reads from everyone's list.
Outside of that, town!Kirari is quite hard to predict so far, and given the high activity, could prove to be a threat to scum. Since the suspicious were decent EoD day 1, I can see why they would push her even if they haven't thought that ahead.
In conclusion,
despite the fact individually I find Kirari's posts scummy, the thread sentiment here makes more sense only if Kirari is town. I doubt scum is willing to risk such a high risk low reward gambit by death-bussing here when they are this ahead in the game, and it makes a lot of sense for town!kirari to be scum's preferred lynch here. Going off this, I think those who are either pushing the wagon without directly taking the reigns of it most likely is the scum driving this. I need to go back throughout today to figure out how everyone's push/read progression has changed before I can feel certain where the scum is.
For me, these are excellent points why I am town, and they reflect Holden being in a position where he knows there are almost certainly scum willing to lynch me today. It's a very townie thought process, and if Holden is scum this game it's probably the towniest scum post I have ever seen in newbie queue, so congrats on that.
3b is a slot I need to reread, and I'd rather do that after clidd drops whatever walls he's working on.
In the related point that LL has asked about, why would I choose "mason" and "cop" as the joke-claims? I'm not in a position to put on an SE hat here, but this reflects
site meta
. Mason joke-claims are very, very common, as are semi-serious mason fake-claims. "Masons" are slots that are "confirmed town" and cop guilties are the only way to redcheck, so "cop" and "mason" are the only roles it makes sense to joke-claim. Joke claims are usually just a casual form of hyperbole. You can argue hyperbole is scummy, but in this case my hyperbole... to date... has been justified. My townreads thus far have been good, and I strongly suspect I have at most 1 scum in my "mason" block from early game.
I'm pretty sure there was stuff directed at me but I think the game is solving better around me rather than with me at the moment so I'll go ahead and give the thread (expired on 2020-04-22 20:14:15) before I will post again no matter what anyone says or does. This so far has done wonders for my blood pressure and is helping my productivity so I should probably do it more often.
In any case:
-The "masonry" thing reflects my entire philosophy of day 1 play, which is solving around a towncore
-It also reflects the problem I had at end of day, where having a strong scumread would have been preferable to push an alternative. Instead, I resorted to potato play of just lynching Alora when he started voting me randomly after claim/intent. It is not necessarily the "best" way to play a game but it is a way that has worked for me well very often, notably in both games moderated by Moriarty (Hall of Mirrors and Titus v. Alisae), both of which were nearly flawless town sweeps in large part because of the strength of my towncore. I'm not saying that's what will happen this game, but I think arguing there's no town POV where it comes from ignores the fact that I've done it as town multiple times and usually scum are the ones complaining about it most loudly, a point I've made before.
-I'm not flawless at the game but arguing I'd appreciate it if people would stop arguing I'm "bad at the game". I am still a player in this game and don't appreciate it.
In post 1327, 3bounty wrote:He def appeared super townie D1. Which explains why town is so uncoordinated atm. We are dealing with a strong scum game who knows how to come off as town.
I think I asked this before so if you answered let me know but what made you so confident on me being town day 1 that you were willing to sheep?
Early/mid game you were actually trying to solve the game, and felt like town. Pair this with the fact a D1 sheep has huge odds of sheeping town (which I learned from game 1994).
Further in the game I try not to sheep and use actual solving or PR info.
Ok, now that I am done with the draft workshop and my obligated school duties, I am here.
I am a bit worried how the game has slowed down again post LL's claim in the last 24 hours. This game-state of uncertainly and the lack of a clear wagon is advangtious to scum right now.
Everyone, today, must without question town/scum read Kirari and act accordingly. If Kirari is to be lynched, then it needs to be today for it to be the most effective instead of, worse case, us lynching a town and having to sort them out Day 3 in mylo. If scum does flip later, we can debate lynching Kirari if need be. This needs to be resolved now rather than later since we are facing 2 and a half days almost with no clear coalition of votes on anybody.
I am in the boat after much thought that Kirari is still town post LL's claim. The reason why I had debated it since my thread sentiment post is the interaction between Yooh and Kirari. This first pinged me as a TvS interaction is the tonal impact of it felt off in my gut. Upon rereading, I found Yooh's tone more and more believable making me question my read on Kirari. After thought, I think it makes more sense that kirari is town there and that I am most likely wrong about the interaction being TvS.
My vote for today's wagon is 3b. I already provided a detailed potential team pair with him, however individually I do find him scum regardless. His reaction to my case is partially damning as his initial response reads off as a shading attempt to shrug off my case for a reason that is clearly false if my case was actually read. I expect town!3b, if genuinely interested in scum hunting, to question why I seemingly omitted that point and understand my logic behind the day cli2d sheep vote. Especially since by his own admittance his scum pool is quite large (Me, HEM, Kirari, and now Floof given his 100% cannot be town read on the gambit). This highlights the overarching issue with his game play thus far. He seems more interested in opening up avenues to scum read people rather than narrowing down his scum pool for the most part.
Additionally I think the game-state has slowed down since comments like LL and Kirari's have told scum (regardless of if you think one of them is scum) that town is going to have a hard time consolidating into a lynch target.
In post 1254, LuckyLuciano wrote:Worthy of note, Holden was absent early in the day phase for an extended period of time. During that time, he posted elsewhere on site. Pairing this with the mod sending out notifications that day 2 was up, I see scum motive for avoiding the game but not town motive. In any case, if town!Kirari, then town!Holden feels good because while there is scum motive for Holden not posting during a scum!Kirari wagon, it seems odd for scum!Holden not to post during a town!Kirari wagon.
VOTE: Holden
If there is a tracker then mafia would know. Holden waiting for last to post is scum, I am willing to bet he is the one that did the night kill too.
If he knows there's a tracker it makes sense to wait it out before posting or else he'd be posting in vain due to a successful track on him.
LL explained the purpose of why I want people now to take hard stands on kirari, leaving kirari as a possible question mark day 3 gives scum an easy win assuming they pull a mislynch off today. This is exactly what 3b has done post claim. He is pushing the notion that I am scum hard despite the fact he is scum reading Kirari. That latter read does not seem to be changing given his voiced sentiment. If he is concerned about Kirari, why not vote him off now when there is pressure on him? Instead he is voting and pursing my mislynch because it sets up scums wincon day 3: Kirari. It wouldn't be bad if he simply gave the read without voting as then I can see it as him trying to look pass kirari today for the last scum (from his PoV). Yet, he did vote and now is pushing my lynch while still having 2, by his own admission, extremely scummy people (yooh and HEM), and a scum read on kirari.
Clidd's wall is very slowly coming so I'll go ahead and walk through some of my concerns with clidd slot. I kinda wanted to save this for after he had done his revised solve but whatever, game is quiet and I need him to respond to these points at some time.
In post 469, InWho22 wrote:@Peaches: If you aren't going to participate, I would recommend you ask for a replacement and find another game when you have the time for it.
Essentially, in terms of night kill, this interaction makes Who a much more appealing kill if Peaches is town, since if Peaches gets flipped later then Who would be likely viewed as near-IC town since this response is almost never S/S (not never, I think Nancy had an interaction like this in Merchant's Dance with a scumbuddy but I don't remember that part of the game that well and there was *a lot* more theater due to an OOG conflict)
I'm not reading previous games to determine someone's alignment.
The early feud between HEM and LL I do not get.
I still didn't like this post. He's right on Who, so that's good. I agree with the Holden townlean. Actually not bad there.
But the refusal of doing meta is something I see more often from scum I think; in a newbie game I think newbie town would be more likely to be like "well how does meta work" rather than "nah F that" although tbh middle line could go either way
It's the third sentence that bothers me since if you don't "get" the interaction then that might be a sign it's time to do some digging. Although maybe this is simply an indication that Peaches should have tried a scumread on HEM?
In post 522, Kirari Momobami wrote:Masonry: lucky, alora, 3b, kirari, holdengolden, who
N0 cop guilty: clidd
Ez game
In post 523, Kirari Momobami wrote:My night 0 split parity cop is difference between yoon and monkey but let's focus on the multitasking n0 guilty check first
In post 550, Kirari Momobami wrote:When I say someone is masons with me, it means one of two things:
a) they're masons with me :3
b) I townread them strongly
Lol, this is a very risky instance. Do you have a game where you did something similar ?
In two previous posts, he a) observes that me saying 3b is doing a "parity cop" is OK, implying he understands what I'm saying
He observes there's a "gambit"
But then argues "this is a very risky instance" -- an sentiment I still don't understand coming from a VT perspective I guess
LL likes 508 because it's a wallpost leading to a townread on town. OK but -- I have done this sort of wallpost before as scum, and I don't see why this isn't pocketing. He doesn't commit to a hard read. I will say that the concerning aspect of this post for scum!clidd is that if the purpose is to pocket LL, framing the townread as coming from "too much arrogance for scum" is a bit concerning.
Next we have the Alo wall, which sets up clidd's position for rest of the day. 713
In this he does indicate " I feel that there was some towny *empathy* after he noticed that Monkey is a foreigner." which suggests he was willing to consider Alo as town
if Peaches flips green, there's a certain probability that at least one mafia is on the wagon now
. An early wagon like this with a silent player is an easy one for scum to slide in on unnoticed -- there is built-in reasoning for voting. On Day 2, we would take a look at who was on her wagon, when they joined and under what circumstances they joined. Everyone on the wagon would be under scrutiny. That would narrow down our game solve considerably.
1.
Actually, the lynch of absent slots fits the lynch policy better than obtaining information. In order to obtain associative information about a player, it is interesting that he has interactions with other players, and this implies having at least a considerable number of posts. Now, bringing it to our context: how would you get information with the lynch of a slot that has only 3 posts ? it's a strange logic coming from a town perspective.
2.
Yes, I have seen it happen in other games. However, the premise of focusing on 5 players specifically for the suspicion of having 1 scum seems to me to be inefficient, as it stimulates paranoia and discourages the evaluation of other players outside the wagon. Not to mention, of course, that depending on the competence of the scums players, it is possible that they will refrain from participating in the wagon, precisely because they are already aware of the flip and wait for towncred on D2. In any case, these two posts present a logic that has no beneficial applicability for town alignment and probably reflect a particular opinion that makes more sense in the
Scum!Aloratom
scenario trying to simulate towny speculation.
In post 284, Aloratom wrote:
I think you're probably Town. And I like your push on Peaches to encourage activity. Pressure votes are good.
I didn't realize that. I didn't think he had any votes on him.
UNVOTE: 3bounty
I feel that Aloratom, as a player, has a very sporadic nature and is difficult to assess. In post 284, for example, he mentions that he thinks InWho (230) is town, then superficially praises the Peaches push with a generic motive, ending by saying that pressure votes are good. I feel that the three sentences are very vague and precarious in development, especially since there is no expressive sequence that allows him to expand this impression for a more elaborate discussion. In post 366, his reaction is very strange and the split formatting of the two sentences of
''I didn't realize''
and
''I didn't think''
seem formulated in a way to fill space, as if he wanted to deliver an unnatural reaction to Monkey's post. The lack of attention I mentioned in his initial 108 ~ 118 post sequences is also present here. The question would be:
Scum!Aloratom
and
Town!Aloratom
share the same peculiarly atypical playstyle ?
Conclusion:
The difficulty of focusing and directing questions in many directions, without frequent development/elaboration, are characteristics of inconsistency that I classify as anti-town, precisely because they are not beneficial, in my opinion, in contributing to the resolution of the game.
I did a quick count of the number of question marks he typed in his ISO and the result was approximately 30, almost half of all his posts (65).
Unlike Luciano, I believe that his active participation is not as impactful as I would like it to be, because asking many questions without extracting or developing an expressive inference is far from being a towny thing. I believe I cannot feel confident in his slot and it is likely that in the long run this will materialize at a disadvantage not only for me, but for everyone. I took a look at some of his past games, which have been discriminated by Luciano previously, and although this *strangeness* is something he presents in every game, I am not comfortable dealing with it. Therefore, I would say that it is a viable lynch option for today, at least until I engage with other slots.
VOTE: Aloratom
This is interesting because we can see the Peaches wagon now; in fact I thought that wagon is interesting from any PoV:
Peaches - (3) - Kirari Momobami, InWho22, Aloratom
From my POV, this is a 100% town wagon on a ? slot. In this sense, a) clidd is right that Aloratom's argument isn't very good. There's no reason to think there's scum on the Peaches wagon at that point, and moreover, it's weird for Alo to make that argument unless he's going to scumread me specifically, which he does not do to my recollection. So Clidd might want to address the possibility it's an all town wagon on town, since from his POV he knows he's town. This also makes this wagon attention grabbing for me, since effectively Aloratom is a counter-wagon to the all-town wagon on Peaches if we think about how the game develops from this point.
Conversely, I actually noticed the exact same thing as Clidd, but I reached the exact opposite conclusion. This is actually what I was talking about in 287. As scum, Alora does not advance the game or ask very many questions, so this game was heavily different from his scum game both in activity and in tone. So I don't know why clidd presents the question marks as scum indicative when they do not match his scum games.
So the concern then is that clidd is faking meta to advance a scum agenda.
In post 733, clidd wrote:I've read a good part of the game already, my list is:
* The first three are due to interactions;
* The four in the middle need to be evaluated better (more interactions);
* The latter is probably a good lynch for today;
Considering this list, he does get me as townlean at this point.
Scenarios here:
clidd is town and is having a good game, HEM is town, and scum team is 2/3 in {3b, Yooh, HG}; even though he backpedals on his read of me for ?? reasons
clidd is town and is having a typical game, HEM is scum, and there's 1 in {3b, Yooh, HG}
clidd is scum and put his scumbuddy in the group of scum {HEM}
clidd is scum and put his scumbuddy in the 4 man null pull, and there's 1 in {3b, Yooh, HG}
I guess the most concerning thing for me is:
In post 828, clidd wrote:I consider two possible scenarios by reading this post:
1. You are scum;
Or
2. You have the worst possible reads [Monkey / Clidd] with the information available;
I believe that scenario 1 is more likely, so I'm ok with your lynch. I am not townreading absolutely anything you are typing.
again, as I asked before, why is he hyperconfident on Monkey being town such that he'll insult alora's read of HEM?
So to understand clidd, I need to understand why he has HEM as town, when I don't understand why HEM is 'locktown' either from HEM's iso/play or from clidd's iso, which emphasizes HEM as town but doesn't explain why he reaches that conclusion afaik.
If clidd is town, then I think the solve right now would have to be HEM/3b, so town!clidd would need to sell me on that world and explain why he was so emphatic on HEM town earlier. That, or he needs to convince me that one of my townreads in {HG/Yooh} is incorrect. Not that I wouldn't mind scumreading Yooh since I dislike how he approached me today, but he does seem like maybe town.
So summary:
-I like that clidd's towncase on LL doesn't feel super pockety
-I like that clidd observed a point where Alora could have been town
but
-I dislike how he's approached HEM slot, I don't get why he is so strong on that read or why he pushed Alora because of his HEM read
-I'm worried his question mark meta-argument on Alora didn't reach the conclusion it should have by looking at scum games
and as a result:
-if he's town I need him to sell me on a scumteam that doesn't include him, since he otherwise is the common denominator among most existing scumteams
-if he's scum he needs to immediately bus his buddy for towncred :3 :3 :3
Right now I need content from clidd and he knows I need content from him. Whether my vote is on him or not is irrelevant.
I can put a vote on 3b if you want more pressure there but my order of interest is clidd-->HEM-->3b atm, so I don't dislike your solve but I'd like to know why you remove HEM basically
In post 1344, Kirari Momobami wrote:Right now I need content from clidd and he knows I need content from him. Whether my vote is on him or not is irrelevant.
I can put a vote on 3b if you want more pressure there but my order of interest is clidd-->HEM-->3b atm, so I don't dislike your solve but I'd like to know why you remove HEM basically
I can provide a longer analysis on HEM in a bit post dinner, but the general tldr is while he is left in my PoE, his posting style and certain posts ping me as town. Can he be associated with 3b, sure. However cli2d makes more sense.
Moreover, having just played with scum!monkey, I do notice a difference in tone where here monkey is more emotional it seems then his cool and collected appearance in that game. It's only that one game of course, but it is worth noting.
In post 1345, 3bounty wrote:Post 1311 makes the most sense to me. Haven't seen a counter to it besides:
- That can't be true because who is my partner.
- That can't be true because you (3bounty) are scum.
Those are definitely not reasons for me to be changing vote.
A) expect there has been more. I directly commented on my afkness to LL in response to his post which is what your logic is explaining. Meaning that this representation of my points are wrong.
B) your arguement and LLs has a major fallacy is that regardless of my alignment, there is no actual defense that can be provided. Both town!me and scum!me cannot provide evidence of why I wasnt posting outside of my word for it. It's not like I can post a picture of my brain saying "I dont feel like playing this game right now" now can I? As such, your arguement cannot be rebuated in a logical manner not because its soild, but because logically speaking there is no manner to logically defend it. It's all claims on my end.
This is why people argue that lurking in general is anti town and not necessarily scum. I'll admit that there is more to it than the normal lurker read, but it still has the same issues at heart.
C) this still doesnt jusifty the reasoning why your voting me than kirari who, since you for sure are believing his claim due to your reason on me, LL have already expressed needs to be lynched today. Hence why I'm calling into question your posing of multiple people being scum. According additionally to your own logic, floof is 100% scum expect in a narrow instance. See the issue?
LL, I am willing to comprise on my stance if need be to secure town some lynch today regardless of how the stances turn out if you agree to do the same.
In post 451, 3bounty wrote:In recent memory he misrepped me by saying I tried to take an easy lynch on peaches, which never happened. The timing of his case on me seemed opportunistic. Fabricated case/read to get a mislynch. Never really town read him, so he is in my scum pile.
I remember seeing this and thinking 3b/HEM is not S/S as well, which I'd want clidd to address since that is the world I think he needs as town
In post 1041, humaneatingmonkey wrote:i agree that with the way it's going, we should definitely be wary of the fast tracking of kirari's wagon. however, i dont understand why you think kirari is town for this. i also dont understand why you think 3b/kirari is impossible. i also agree that if kirari is scum, someone will try to counter push it.
either 1. it's you, and you're trying to counter push it. 2. 3b is trying to take a temperature of your opinion on 3b so he can know it's good to bus. 3. its not kirari, and im bad at this game.
these are my premature thoughts.
I didn't really like HEM pushing this world; so while I vibed with him day 1 on the Who townread and the NKA makes more sense if Kirari+HEM are both town (in who being a target for being UTR), if Who was killed to avoid spew onto clidd/peaches-slot then HEM would be a candidate again. I think the main thing here is the "if kirari is scum, someone will try to counter push it" is just a really anti-town argument since it creates wifom about gamestate and future activity. Also didn't like the "3. its not kirari, and im bad at this game" since that seems to be making excuses about his read. Also framing them as "premature thoughts" seems to be setting up future backpedal if there's pushback.
So this is a slimy post, but looking back at 451 I'm still faced with the issue that clidd/HEM or clidd/3b makes more sense to me than HEM/3b based on the early game interaction which didn't really particularly strike me as distancing, although I'm a little less sure of that now than when I was reading it at the time I guess
