Mini Normal 2135 (Endgame)

[Knightmare491]

Knightmare #317 deliberately tries to make out I was ignoring Drew. I pointed it out at the time that he deliberately and wilfully ignored the fact I was willing to hammer Drew when the time came, while he was apparently going through my ISO. This is fake "scum hunting" quite clearly. Still happy with my scum team.

This is BS

[Knightmare491]

@Knightmare

I've said elsewhere that I'm not voting Drew right now, but am happy to be the hammer. I do not wish to rush a lynch when there's information to gather. If you were doing a true ISO of me you would have seen that. So why did you deliberately omit it to try and make out I refuse to vote Drew?

That's not what I said.................................................................

In my post I'm talking about the time there were three votes on Drew and he hadn't claimed yet, I felt like you had enough reason to vote there but didn't. This is another misrepresentation/shade throw attempt from you.

I clarified this in that ^ post

[Knightmare491]

I'll vote/hammer RP for lynch if needed, but I'm really feeling PD is scum now.

[PranaDevil]

I'm happy to flip, as it will conftown mavs, but this should have been done earlier.

Starting a new wagon with 1 day left is pretty much a scum claim

. You know you should vote somewhere, but you don't want to vote your buddy.

Didn't you claim something Drew did was a scum claim too? I do not think that phrase means what you think it means.

Seriously Persivul, you can claim that crap all you want, but you've literally nothing you can say against what I posted. You tried to rush a lynch, you were decidedly anti-town, your "I said that because I'm a rolecop" thing holds absolutely no water as I've already proven above, and now you are trying to paint me as scum.

Based on what I've read so far, I do not see Panda as scum, why in the blue hell should I vote Panda "now" over someone who is my top scum read? Just to please you? Just to "get a lynch"? No.

Knightmare has 2 votes, I'll happily shift my vote there if that becomes the lynch, but, based on my current reading (ANYONE attacking me for not looking at the most recent stuff at this exact second... scummy as fuck, and looking for excuses later).

...I still have no clue how can you see Persi scum without mavs. You also know that wagon isn't gonna go anywhere. We need a claim from Panda, and we need to start moving.

If mavs is a miller as claimed, and I currently believe him, a scum rolecop will search elsewhere, knowing they can confirm mavs. Scum already know if mavs is a miller, so don't need to rolecop him. Simples.

[Tanner]

...I still have no clue how can you see Persi scum without mavs. You also know that wagon isn't gonna go anywhere. We need a claim from Panda, and we need to start moving.

If mavs is a miller as claimed, and I currently believe him, a scum rolecop will search elsewhere, knowing they can confirm mavs. Scum already know if mavs is a miller, so don't need to rolecop him. Simples.

(1) scum!persi would've let this town eat themselves by lynching another townie and he wouldn't have claimed shit (2) this game is borderline bastard if there's two millers with no means of confirming either. they

have

to be of the same alignment. please put your vote somewhere that's actually helpful.

[Persivul]

Based on what I've read so far, I do not see Panda as scum

In your last post you said that Panda posts were bad and really bad.

[Persivul]

Persivul could be a scum going for the towncred when mavs flips.

Town having two Millers with no ways to confirm either one of them (i.e. - without something like a Rolecop) cannot be Normal as it basically gives scum 2 free mislynches.

Also, are you serious in saying Panda is scum, or...?

This is very much true.

It's both one alignment or the other.

So, you think mavs is scum too?

[PranaDevil]

(ANYONE attacking me for not looking at the most recent stuff at this exact second... scummy as fuck, and looking for excuses later).

[Tanner]

I'm not attacking you. I actually think this complete tone-deafness comes from Town more often than scum. I'm just annoyed because your vote is really really not helping right now.

[PranaDevil]

Oh, also, read what the hell I've actually posted, and respond to that, any discussion of where my vote is at this second is not helpful to anyone.

So, go, if you're town you want to look at what I'm saying, not ignore it. So read.

[Persivul]

(ANYONE attacking me for not looking at the most recent stuff at this exact second... scummy as fuck, and looking for excuses later).

LOL - you're not allowed to just declare that your prior positions don't matter. Positions can change, but you should be able to explain the change.

[PranaDevil]

Up to the end of page 19, but I like a good wagon recap, and feel it's important, especially as it changes a few things in my reads.

Knightmare #427 Highlighting this because it's literally Knightmare quoting Persivul claiming Drew is scummy for asking people what they will do when he flips town, and calling it a scum claim... much like he's trying to do with me. Sorry, no it's not.

farside #437 points out that there had best be more than "just lynch mavs" for D2, I think this may be telling. Though I'll admit it doesn't fully fit into the Persivul-scum position so much, unless he felt he could buy town points.

Drew post #442 however nullifies that as they could hae just booted out his biggest town read (and farside has been around a long time with plenty of experience)

Una #445 Quick, distance from Persivul, hurry up, do it now. Hah.

Drew #466 "I can’t see scum putting effort into the lynch after the CC. They’d have coasted." I agree. Persivul was coasting through it fully, literally did nothing at all.

Lynch post Drew-Sta (7)Persivul;mavsfan41;Knightmare491;Riabi;farside22;GeorgeBailey;UnaBombaH;

We know farside was town, I'm pretty strong on mavs being town, at LEAST one of these is scum. HOWEVER... I do not believe all three of the scum were on this wagon, which indeed blows my Persivul/Una/Knightmare scum team out of the water. This was such an easy lynch that scum did not need to be on it. There was certainly no need to hammer, not when I had already said I was willing to, they could have sat back knowing I would hammer already... so Una is likely town as of this point forward, or really stupid scum. But I'll go with town.

However... that also ruins the earlier theory of Una knowing scum have a rolecop, which confuses me. Why was Una even mentioning rolecop that early? I'm also ruling out Persivul just deciding to use that role randomly to claim her checked Mavs, meaning Persivul is 100% a rolecop, whether it's scum or town is another matter of course.

Still, if Una is town, that leaves Persivul, Knightmare, Riabi and George... I'm saying a minimum of one of these are scum, and a maximum of two. I'm still solid on Persivul as scum, and I still feel Knightmare is too.

Of those off the wagon we have:
Luca, Tanner, Prana, Panda, Wake

Obviously Wake is town, so one of the others must be scum, and I had none of them as scum reads. Luca leans town, Tanner leans town, I'm in there and I'm not in the habit of calling myself scum, Panda therefore is the odd one out.

So... Scum team is leaning in the grouping of:
Persivul
Knightmare
Panda
Una

(ANYONE attacking me for not looking at the most recent stuff at this exact second... scummy as fuck, and looking for excuses later).

LOL - you're not allowed to just declare that your prior positions don't matter. Positions can change, but you should be able to explain the change.

Well done. However I'm about to start reading page 20. So you can sit there and wait while pretending you're doing anything of use, like you did day 1, or you can actually read what the hell I'm doing rather than pretending you are. Scum.

[mavsfan41]

Vote: Red Panda

[PranaDevil]

Vote: Red Panda

This was bad posting, considering I'm still mid catch up, check this tomorrow lads. Because I see no town reason to hammer while I'm still posting thoughts on stuff.

[Tanner]

...That's L-1.

[PranaDevil]

...That's L-1.

Aha! I missed Una's unvote. Carry on.

This takes us to the end of page 24.

Knightmare #479 This was weird... his post immediately before mentions farside's reaction to the miller CC was weird, but I then checked his ISO... nothing really against George there. But also not a great deal against Mavs. He was happy for the Drew flip, but put Mavs as strong town "based on Drew's flip" earlier, and when Drew flipped town, he ignored the miller stuff entirely, despite previously talking about "if there's two millers we can just not include this game on our record", so he clearly was saying there wasn't two millers, yet goes into day two happily buying it? Not a chance that's town behaviour. Knightmare is 100% slam dunk scum.

mavs 496This is good posting, and I agree with it all, though maybe not the two cops thing in hindsight.

Tanner #499 Buys the rolecop claim away too easily.

Here's a suggestion... we don't have ANY town cop, normal or otherwise, scum have a rolecop though. That is plausible.

mavs #501 Agree too, and that doesn't necessarily require Una to be scum, scum could see it, happily let that happen, and not argue against it (I doubt they would argue for it either... may be worth someone checking who responded to Una, and who ignored that entirely, that someone isn't me). Plus, any doc night 1 was focusing on Wake. Mavs was easily ignored either so scum could buddy and claim town cred in some form for (rolecop), or as an easy lynch later, and any doc wasn't going there, while farside was an easy target, unfortunately.

George #503 says exactly what I did to Knightmare.

George #505 I've had three goes at writing this, and my thought process has changed... first I wanted to say not considering the possibility of double scum wasn't scummy... buuut... scum need to be seen as town, those who bought the claim quickly are actually more inclined to be town. Scum would know that if both millers flip it will come back to bite them, AND they would know both millers are telling the truth if there are, indeed, two millers (which I currently believe)... so the scum will mainly be those that originally refused to accept it. I feel this actually clears George (and annoyingly... Una...) in my head.

Riabi #507 "I can't think of a reason that a scum!persivul would lie about mavs' claim." ... "What I don't understand though is why that claim confirms Persivul? If he is a scum role-cop, mavs seems like a pretty easy/convenient target to gain town cred." Riabi... you literally answered yourself instantly.

Tanner #508 and even up to now, is still blindly believing Persivul's rolecop claim and wilfully ignoring how easy it would be for scum to claim mavs is definitely town, have him killed in a night or two, and just use that as evidence he's telling the truth.

What I will say though... is if Persivul is NOT scum... he should be dead tonight. Because he's the scum target 100%. Especially as I'm the only one who suspects him.

Una #511 Makes the same point I've been making regarding Persivul.

Tanner #512 Makes a fair point here, Persivul does need to either get good results AND survive as if he's town, as I said above, he's target number 1 by the scum team as they need to stop him outing any of their team, but his death confirms Mavs at that point, giving us double confirmed town with the IC as well. So yes, a vote on Persivul should be elsewhere, but I still strongly believe he's scum.

Una #515 This is good. Una could easily have coasted off the rolecop claim if he were scum, and brought up stuff as wifom later, but he pushes the fact that a rolecop claim doesn't have to be town.

Panda #546 Answers me asking if scum have daytalk with believing they do. Didn't think much of it at the time... but since when is daytalk normal? for a start, thats normally a stronger thing for scum, meaning the chances are they don't have it if town do have a double miller. Also votes Una, and based on my current reading, Una has shifted more to the town side by this stage. Not anywhere atually within the town gates, but he's riding his horse there. So I'm not sure I approve of Panda shifting her vote that way.

Tanner #549 reads more like town wanting to shift away from set-up discussion, which is fair, I wish I hadn't been discussing it now.

Panda #552 Can't really tell which way Panda is lying here, this is a mess of a post, but my gut here says town.

The entire Panda/Tanner back and forth on page 23 feels town Vs town to me, which really doesn't help considering I'm certain based on vote analysis one of them or Luca has to be scum...

Tanner #569 I previously, in my #570 said I believed this, in hindsight I'm not so sure. I could be tunnelling Persivul, but he's been very anti-town up to this point in the game... like so anti-town he should be waving a flag screaming he's scum. But I don't believe mavs is scum either. He reads very town.

Una #574 Good posting by Una, and against my bad posting. Una could be scum still, and distancing brilliantly... but I'm not so sure there.

Tanner #593 "Prana, you almost seem hellbent on making Persi/mavs a viable mislynch." - This is suspect as all hell.

[PranaDevil]

Persivul #608 (Plus everything else from him on that page) Calls Wake useless... while literally being no more useful himself.

Knightmare #620 He loves his opportunistic stuff doesn't he?

popo #626 A solid entry, and it feels town leaning to me (which helps as it comes from the Luca slot I previously felt was town leaning). Also the point on Panda is well made. In fact, Una was only mentioned ONCE by Panda prior to voting for him in #546, and that was to say he brought up a good point... highly suspicious of Panda there.

mavs #640 makes good points, regarding Knightmare #630, Knightmare had to sit neutral to a wagon forming, and act like he was fine with it.

Persivul #644Okay... let's just assume, for a second, that maybe, just maybe you are town... WILL YOU DO SOMETHING?! Seriously, Persivul has posted literally NOTHING of use today... I know I've been shit for the most part, but holy cow, the only thing Persivul has done is go "I rolecopped mavs" and that's it. No scum hunting, no attempting to move town along... and if he IS a town rolecop, he should know he's dead tonight, so he would want to provide as much insight as possible, but nope, just coasting away, adding nothing to the discussion, but pretending to be town... how he isn't lead wagon is beyond me.

Also, the Panda vote in #611 amounted to "farside thought this, so I'm voting there". And that was it, nothing else. If Panda is scum, this is distancing. 100%.

Panda #645AtE for days.

Tanner #653 Let me respond to this with a clear head... you are suggesting that a two miller - 1 rolecop set up is done so we can avoid losing two millers to mislynches... so we an lose one miller to a mislynch, and a rolecop to a guaranteed night kill, and thus lose a strong power role? And you're suggesting that rolecop is best served by saving a wifom miller claim instead of trying to check scum? They could target the lurky slots and have a better hance of gaining useful information.

Losing two town, over losing two different town... is still losing two town... in fact, "balancing" it, s we lose an actual power role in the rolecop, over mislynching the miller... feels like a bigger town loss than not having any cop at all.

Panda #674 Very much feels in the past couple of posts that Panda is getting stressed at the votes on them (see: #645) We open with suggesting the rolecop is town aligned... good idea, distance from your buddy.

In fact... if Panda flips scum (I solidly believe she will be the lynch, though I'd favour Knightmare), I think this post will yeild very important information.

Persivul #676 Still not scum hunting.

Final conclusion:

Reads are:

Town:
Eve

Likely town:
Mavs
Popo
Una

Null:
George
Tanner
Riabi

Scum:
Persivul
Knightmare
Panda

Am happy to hammer Panda when I wake up tomorrow. (To give Una the chance to do their catch up tonight).

Also, looking at it now, persivul is the last to die out of those as he has to be a scum kill if he's town, because they cannot risk him surviving and outing some of them.

I'd favour Knightmare first, (and am about to park my vote there because if it does gain steam, I'm still happy, and I don't wish to hammer Panda prematurely) but am comfortable with the Panda wagon.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Knightmare

[Persivul]

persivul is the last to die out of those as he has to be a scum kill if he's town, because they cannot risk him surviving and outing some of them

You keep saying this. How do you know that scum have roles that are obviously scummy? And why do scum want to 100% conftown mavs, which happens when I flip?

[Persivul]

Part of me thinks you're bad town rather than scum, but the way you're setting me up for a lynch tomorrow doesn't feel like bad town.

[PranaDevil]

persivul is the last to die out of those as he has to be a scum kill if he's town, because they cannot risk him surviving and outing some of them

You keep saying this. How do you know that scum have roles that are obviously scummy? And why do scum want to 100% conftown mavs, which happens when I flip?

That's fair, I don't know they will have an obviously scummy role, I was thinking you would also get "mafia goon" as a response or similar. But that would be more normal cop territory.

As for the second bit... you being scum rolecop =/= 100% conftown mavs, mavs can be town miller still with you being a rolecop.

I do approve of you actually doing some talking though, more of this.

Part of me thinks you're bad town rather than scum, but the way you're setting me up for a lynch tomorrow doesn't feel like bad town.

Tomorrow? Oh no, that will be Knightmare almost for certain. You are either killed by scum or lynched when it's obvious you are scum in two day phases. But you are scum, your lack of any worthwhile scum hunting at any stage of this game is enough evidence of that.

[Persivul]

your lack of any worthwhile scum hunting

This from the person who waited until the end of D2 to even read D1?

[PranaDevil]

I meant, mavs could be scum with Persivul being scum.

But you, as scum, would want to latch onto mavs, and ride into the sunset so if he WAS the lynch today... you could buy town cred, and if he wasn't, but he dies later... you have town cred.

However, regardless of all of that, Persivul's posting has just been super bad, like all game, barely any actual scum hunting, doing the same thing people called out me for, but 10x worse, but because he claimed rolecop he's "town"... I don't buy it, at all.

your lack of any worthwhile scum hunting

This from the person who waited until the end of D2 to even read D1?

At least I started... what's your excuse?

[Persivul]

Did you miss this?

Conftown

Wake88

- IC doing nothing

mavsfan41

- by my understanding of normal millers, he's IC to me. I considered the way far out there idea that a scum universal backup could have made a great play there, but reading up it seems that normal UBs only inherit roles from their own faction. So, I think it's mechanically impossible for him to be scum considering normal rules and my result.

Town

(No particular order within a group)

Riabi

- When I went to make this list, I knew this guy had posted somewhat but couldn't remember what he said. That's usually a bad sign, but I read his ISO, and it looks fine.

Tanner

Knightmare491

Null

UnaBombaH
PranaDevil
GeorgeBailey

These three have all managed to put up a lot of words without really saying much at all. Not the Una I'm used to.

Luca Blight

- Had him in scum initially due to farside's read, but read his ISO and I'm not so sure. If salad slot flips red, 366 might mean luca slot is green. Scum usually aren't so obviously together in reads that early.

Scum

Red Panda

Saladman27

Una has since moved up somewhat.

That means scum is you, George, and 1 of Panda/Luca.

Just because I don't make wall posts doesn't mean I'm not scum hunting.

[PranaDevil]

A list of names =/= scum hunting.

[Tanner]

I hate Interjecting your two's moments like this, but, Persi, could you tell me why you're Townreading Knightmare?