Jigsaw's Revenge - Game Over

[Morning Tweet]

All I gotta say is

if iDany isnt scum this game, ill actually lose all hope. All he has done is naked vote bad wagons without giving a reason. If he gives a reason, it's discredited instantly (Hectic). He never responds to our pressure. Scum kills off all the people who vote him. His lynch is derailed to Xtoxm. etc etc etc

[Battle Mage]

Sorry for the non-existent D2. I'm catching up, and I want to lynch Idany, because I still think he's still a good lynch today.

Lynched:

momo

momo (11) - Hectic, farside22, Morning Tweet, GuiltyLion, Albert B. Rampage, Elsa Jay, Blake Belladonna, Almost50, Battle Mage, xtoxm, BBmolla

To re-iterate my TR:

The first three votes on here is pretty much my town-core (obviously excluding the dead people). I feel like the wagon-starters are the most likely to be town on wagons that flip scum.

xtoxm

-

xtoxm (9) - Battle Mage, farside22, Morning Tweet, GuiltyLion, BBmolla, Almost50, Gamma Emerald, pisskop, Albert B. Rampage

This wagon is interesting. There's obviously a bunch of scum on here, but I townread most of the people on the wagon (dead towns are a given), by PoE, scum would be: Pisskop, Gamma, and BB.

Of the three, I think this was a sus vote due to lack of progression:

Agreed btw

VOTE: Xtotm

Besides that, I still think idany has a better chance of flipping scum.

VOTE: Idanyboy

iDanyboy (4) - Battle Mage, momo, BBmolla, Albert B. Rampage

This is probably the only thing psyching me out right now. This is might be distancing though. Momo and Idany both switched to the Hectic wagon when it got hot, so I can see the partnering.

ABR and BM have very similar posting styles so I realy don't get this hate. BM is playing the same as he did in day 1 and he loved him there.

VOTE: ABR

This vote is also kinda awful. Barely commenting on ABR, and framing it like the choice is between BM and ABR. They can be both Town. Which is what I think.

Right now, I don't see BM or ABR flipping scum. BM was actively spearheading the momo lynch, and ABR voted at a time when the wagon was still small. I don't see scum bussing early when there's a possibility of other wagons. I think that if ABR was scum, he would have joined the Elsa wagon when it was large. He was also didn't want Elsa to be lynched that day.

Also, this is a weaker meta read, but before this game I actually sorta knew about ABR from the wiki. I read up on this one guide he made (https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?t=12552) which helped immensely in a game I recently played (https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=84&t=82497). He seems to be playing a lot like how he talked about in the guide, which he describes as starting pro-town discussions.

We can't both be town. I am town. ABR must be scum. There is 2 scum in my hood. Voting Danyboy today is unforgivable.

Do you think ABR would write a guide on how to play as town, and then play completely differently as scum?

And can I just check, does his little outburst today feature in that guide at all? I'm sure I'll be forgiven for not reading it.

[Battle Mage]

All I gotta say is

if iDany isnt scum this game, ill actually lose all hope. All he has done is naked vote bad wagons without giving a reason. If he gives a reason, it's discredited instantly (Hectic). He never responds to our pressure. Scum kills off all the people who vote him. His lynch is derailed to Xtoxm. etc etc etc

I don't think any scumteam with 4 people is killing people because they are suspicious of Danyboy. No offence to the guy, but I don't think scums chances live-and-die on whether he survives 1 extra day.

[Morning Tweet]

The other thing to note is, Logan Nelson was flipped as a "Jigsaw Survivor". Because his identity was linked to his hood, and the Mod deemed him to be a Jigsaw Survivor. So I don't think you'll see Amanda Young flipping in the 8-person cop hood as "drug addict hanging out at the police HQ". Is it possible? Yes. Is there any reason to believe it? No.

Logan was flipped as "Jigsaw Survivor" in quotes because he was masquerading as one. He was pretending to be Simone, an actual Jigsaw Survivor. His role was just that. A neighbour.

He's not listed as "Jigsaw Survivor" (in QUOTES) because he's an actual Jigsaw survivor. He's an acolyte! His role was being in the survivor neighbourhood, that's all

[GeorgeBailey]

Also, this is a weaker meta read, but before this game I actually sorta knew about ABR from the wiki. I read up on this one guide he made (viewtopic.php?t=12552) which helped immensely in a game I recently played (viewtopic.php?f=84&t=82497). He seems to be playing a lot like how he talked about in the guide, which he describes as starting pro-town discussions.

God damnit that was the wrong guide. This is the one that helped me out (although the other one was helpful too):

https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?t=7958

[Morning Tweet]

All I gotta say is

if iDany isnt scum this game, ill actually lose all hope. All he has done is naked vote bad wagons without giving a reason. If he gives a reason, it's discredited instantly (Hectic). He never responds to our pressure. Scum kills off all the people who vote him. His lynch is derailed to Xtoxm. etc etc etc

I don't think any scumteam with 4 people is killing people because they are suspicious of Danyboy. No offence to the guy, but I don't think scums chances live-and-die on whether he survives 1 extra day.

What i mean is it seems so unlikely that he's town, it seems impossible for him to be anything but scum. So if he's town, then my read is horribly wrong.

I think whether or not iDany is scum, killing off people who were hesitant to sheep the town!Xtoxm wagon is a good move. Easier to sway town's votes that way.

[Battle Mage]

If the members of your hood are not all Jigsaw survivors (Perez confirmed not really to be), then why would the scumteam have to obey the neighbourhoods? I think Logan is already an example of scum not having to obey it.

You are right that Corbett is irrelevant now. But it's not her vs. Amanda. Amanda could be in any PT. Not just the survivor one. thats what I'm getting at.

Imagine this: Amanda's role could be: You are Amanda Young, a "FBI Member" aligned with Jigsaw's Acolytes

Then below that, they are given a FBI fakeclaim.

This is what I think happened in momo/Logan's case.

I do see what you're getting at, and I strongly believe you're wrong. There's no evidence for what you're proposing, for starters. Amanda Young was not an FBI member, she was a drug dealer. There's lots of evidence (every flip so far) that people's actual roles, and fakeclaims, regardless of alignment, match up to their hood (or lack thereof). We will have more confidence in that when we flip more scum.

On Perez specifically, she had a Jigsaw puppet explode in her face. It wasn't a traditional trap, but it was clearly intended for Jigsaw to hurt/kill her. So she is a legitimate survivor.

The best way to settle this, of course, is to lynch ABR and see if he flips Amanda Young or Dr Gordon.

[GeorgeBailey]

We can't both be town. I am town. ABR must be scum. There is 2 scum in my hood. Voting Danyboy today is unforgivable.

Why? You literally just said:

Well if my reads are right, Danyboy and ABR are just bussing each other in panic right now.

I think idany has been acting scummier than ABR. and Idany is also in my hood. So I think this is a much better shot at scum.

Do you think ABR would write a guide on how to play as town, and then play completely differently as scum?

Yes? I haven't even seen him brought it up, so it's not like he's trying to WIFOM with it.

And can I just check, does his little outburst today feature in that guide at all? I'm sure I'll be forgiven for not reading it.

Do you think outbursts are AI? From my experience they really aren't. Both scum and Town can blow up over certain things.

[Morning Tweet]

BM I think the heart of our disagreement is whether or not the Acolytes real flavour name aligns with the hood status or not.

Lynching ABR wouldn't solve that mystery unless he flips scum. If he flips Corbett, we learn nothing.

[Battle Mage]

The other thing to note is, Logan Nelson was flipped as a "Jigsaw Survivor". Because his identity was linked to his hood, and the Mod deemed him to be a Jigsaw Survivor. So I don't think you'll see Amanda Young flipping in the 8-person cop hood as "drug addict hanging out at the police HQ". Is it possible? Yes. Is there any reason to believe it? No.

Logan was flipped as "Jigsaw Survivor" in quotes because he was masquerading as one. He was pretending to be Simone, an actual Jigsaw Survivor. His role was just that. A neighbour.

He's not listed as "Jigsaw Survivor" (in QUOTES) because he's an actual Jigsaw survivor. He's an acolyte! His role was being in the survivor neighbourhood, that's all

He was actually a Jigsaw Survivor though, like in the films. That's why he was in the Jigsaw survivor hood.

In the Saw franchise, Logan Nelson was a survivor of a Jigsaw trap, and then became his apprentice (i.e. an acolyte). I think you've dismissed my theory out of hand, when there is no evidence it's wrong, and we'll only find out if it's right by lynching ABR. If ABR flips town, then it's almost certainly wrong, because you'd have to have Amanda Young and Dr Gordon, and John Kramer all in non-PT.

[Battle Mage]

BM I think the heart of our disagreement is whether or not the Acolytes real flavour name aligns with the hood status or not.

Lynching ABR wouldn't solve that mystery unless he flips scum. If he flips Corbett, we learn nothing.

As in my previous post, if he flips Corbett, my theory falls flat. If he flips Amanda/Dr Gordon, my theory is extremely plausible, surely you must admit?

I mean yes, the heart of our disagreement is that I'm working off the information we have so far being representative of the game at large, and you're assuming it isn't. Neither is necessarily wrong or right, but my theory is more helpful in trying to get a grip of the game. And surely it's worth a punt today to know one way or the other?

[Morning Tweet]

1. It's game breaking if the Acolytes are all in their real PTs

2. Logan wasnt in the support group. Which is your theming. You have a picture of chairs in a circle or something, ya? That's your theme, and only you and momo's fake role fit with it.

That fact that Corbett and Perez don't align with this theming just makes it even more apparent that the hoods dont perfectly align with role flavour. Corbett IS either ABRs real role or his fakeclaim. Corbett is considered a Jigsaw Survivor. It doesnt matter if Logan is considered a jigsaw survivor or not-- any character can pass as one if Corbett can

[Battle Mage]

We can't both be town. I am town. ABR must be scum. There is 2 scum in my hood. Voting Danyboy today is unforgivable.

Why? You literally just said:

Well if my reads are right, Danyboy and ABR are just bussing each other in panic right now.

I think idany has been acting scummier than ABR. and Idany is also in my hood. So I think this is a much better shot at scum.

Please read my theory about the mechanics and flavour of the game, consider my discussion with MorningTweet, check out my case on ABR, and come back and tell me you think ABR is not the best lynch today. I dare you.

Do you think ABR would write a guide on how to play as town, and then play completely differently as scum?

Yes? I haven't even seen him brought it up, so it's not like he's trying to WIFOM with it.

It's quite a damning indictment on ABR as a player if you think he is so transparent as scum and can't behave as he would as town.

And can I just check, does his little outburst today feature in that guide at all? I'm sure I'll be forgiven for not reading it.

Do you think outbursts are AI? From my experience they really aren't. Both scum and Town can blow up over certain things.

He blew up over the fact I voted for him and he thought he was going to be lynched based on my case. That is an incredible level of defensiveness - not sure if that features in his guide?
It's different, for instance, from say, Xtoxm, who blew up because he thought I'd personally affronted him (which although wrong, I can understand, and wouldnt be AI).

[Morning Tweet]

I do not want to use our lynch today to find out if your theory is maybe right!!

Remember the whole 2 extra traps things tonight? Last night we narrowly escaped from having too many die. Now we're in trouble. We only have so many mislynches, and as long as I dont see ABR more likely scum than iDany, i dont want to vote him.

[Morning Tweet]

He blew up over the fact I voted for him and he thought he was going to be lynched based on my case. That is an incredible level of defensiveness - not sure if that features in his guide?

ABR pretty much said "I'll be surprised if even one townie is stupid enough to entertain this"

The idea that he feels he is likely to be lynched is something you've deduced yourself, he has not given me that impression

[Battle Mage]

1. It's game breaking if the Acolytes are all in their real PTs

2. Logan wasnt in the support group. Which is your theming. You have a picture of chairs in a circle or something, ya? That's your theme, and only you and momo's fake role fit with it.

That fact that Corbett and Perez don't align with this theming just makes it even more apparent that the hoods dont perfectly align with role flavour. Corbett IS either ABRs real role or his fakeclaim. Corbett is considered a Jigsaw Survivor. It doesnt matter if Logan is considered a jigsaw survivor or not-- any character can pass as one if Corbett can

1. It's not necessarily game-breaking, as evidenced by the fact we're having this discussion. Even if someone did figure it out, which probably wasn't that likely (as I knew nothing about the flavour coming in, and now I'm virtually an expert!), they would still need to persuade everyone else, many of whom wouldn't know the flavour anyway.

2. I fundamentally disagree with your perspective here. Here's why: The support group may be the theming of the hood, because that's a sensible theming for a group of Saw survivors. It may even be inspired by the scene you referenced from Saw 3D. But it's quite clearly not literally the same scene, given the characters there. However, all individuals claimed there, are Saw survivors through the franchise. So my point is that everyone in my hood is a Jigsaw survivor, and you're getting needlessly hung up on this idea they needed to be in that particular scene in the movie, which is not accurate.

[Battle Mage]

He blew up over the fact I voted for him and he thought he was going to be lynched based on my case. That is an incredible level of defensiveness - not sure if that features in his guide?

ABR pretty much said "I'll be surprised if even one townie is stupid enough to entertain this"

The idea that he feels he is likely to be lynched is something you've deduced yourself, he has not given me that impression

5 reasons I disagree:

1. He threw a tantrum and said he wasn't going to post anymore because of the case, which indicated he had given up.
2. He hasn't even attempted to engage with, or dispute that case.
3. I did manage to rally people behind lynches on 2 consecutive days, when he couldn't.
4. If he really wasn't worried, why would he have abandoned his 'case' on Blake and started pushing Dany as a more viable counter-wagon? NB: Yesterday in the PT when I suggested lynching Dany the following day, he completely freaked out and said it was a terrible idea.
5. If he really wasn't worried, surely he would take it in his stride in the same way he did when he had 1 or 2 votes on previous days.

[Battle Mage]

I do not want to use our lynch today to find out if your theory is maybe right!!

Remember the whole 2 extra traps things tonight? Last night we narrowly escaped from having too many die. Now we're in trouble. We only have so many mislynches, and as long as I dont see ABR more likely scum than iDany, i dont want to vote him.

Mathematically the odds of Dany being scum are slimmer, and are you not slightly wary of how quickly everyone has jumped on him as the counter-wagon? It doesn't change the fact he's scummy, but it should give you pause for thought. Sometimes the scummiest player isn't actually scum, and it's important to look at the behaviour of everyone else around them.

I'm somewhat concerned that if we don't lynch ABR today and take back the initiative for town, we risk losing a game we should absolutely not be losing. Especially because if Danyboy flips scum, ABR will weasel his way off the hook because he joined the wagon fairly early (although it was a counter-wagon to his own). ABR->Danyboy is a much more sensible play. Although if ABR flips scum, the next move could be BBMolla instead.

[Battle Mage]

I do not want to use our lynch today to find out if your theory is maybe right!!

Remember the whole 2 extra traps things tonight? Last night we narrowly escaped from having too many die. Now we're in trouble. We only have so many mislynches, and as long as I dont see ABR more likely scum than iDany, i dont want to vote him.

Are you not slightly wary of the fact that Pisskop and ABR are pushing IDany, and 1 if highly likely to be scum, and the other is also pretty likely to be scum? It feels like a low percentage play. You should believe in the theory, it makes sense, and even after your forensic scrutiny (flavour-apt), it still stands up. FBI Approved.

[Albert B. Rampage]

BM has a messiah complex and thinks he's the only one who can save the poor town because everyone is too dumb to see his brilliance. What a joke he's become.

[Battle Mage]

BM has a messiah complex and thinks he's the only one who can save the poor town because everyone is too dumb to see his brilliance. What a joke he's become.

You won't get any credit if you manage to pull this off - weak appeal to emotion and degrading yourself by bullying others. You're the joke, regardless of alignment, and this is a no-win situation for you anyway.

[Battle Mage]

BM has a messiah complex and thinks he's the only one who can save the poor town because everyone is too dumb to see his brilliance. What a joke he's become.

I missed the messiah complex bit. Wow, you have changed your tune since Day 1. And Day 2. Remember? When you were begging everyone repeatedly to follow you because you were the only one who knew how to win the game?

You're priceless babe.

[Albert B. Rampage]

Don't call anyone babe, that's disgusting.

OK PEOPLE

I don't like it anymore than you guys, but we ignore bm and drag him to a win across the finish line despite his 90 posts a day clogging up the thread and him totally not deserving to win, mod grant me the strength to persevere!!!!!!

[Albert B. Rampage]

keep in mind 10 years ago we used to policy lynch bm because we thought he was a jester.

[Battle Mage]

Don't call anyone babe, that's disgusting.

OK PEOPLE

I don't like it anymore than you guys, but we ignore bm and drag him to a win across the finish line despite his 90 posts a day clogging up the thread and him totally not deserving to win, mod grant me the strength to persevere!!!!!!

I don't think anything is as disgusting as your behaviour in this game. And that includes me being called an f***ing c*** by Xtoxm. So you definitely don't get to tell anyone what they can or can't say. Learn some respect, then you can earn some respect. Babe.

It's nice you've shown up now the heat is off a little, with renewed vigour no less! Could you be any more obviously cowering scum?

Confirm Vote: ABR

This one ain't moving.