Open 778: Nightless Vanilla [Game Over!]

[Isis]

Hi Alisae how are you

[Deimos27]

Spoiler: Isis

If I had to guess which direction to interpret Element's I would say it's town indicative for him, because he seems to be more passive day one when he has a green role PM.

I'd probably dislike it if he were anyone else.

Elements probably votes humaneatingmonkey there as every alignment except unlyncher, I think, but doing so silently is town for him.

He might also onboard to the plan, but I'd expect him to self-consciously feel obligated to provide some shred of his own reasoning for participating.

see this is weird because i was trying to browse his recent games and i found not one thing that can give me this kind of idea. At least 5 of his last games have been town, and his most recent scum game he kinda replaced into.

so to have this kind of conclusion of declaring that he is "paradoxically town", you guys must have a lot of history. can you give me insight on past games that might give you this idea?

[Can't figure out nested spoilers]

D1 scum!Elements
Your more recent scumgame might hold more weight, I don't know of it, but, here's to let you know where I'm coming from.

General pattern there is either objecting to bad planning or trying to get some kind of value out of joining in on stuffs

I think I have played 5 games with Elements? I have played with him bunches.

I have a few observations about this interaction.

(1) This read makes sense with the evidence provided, so I'm inclined to lean a pinch towards town!Elements.
(2) I think scum!Isis has equity

not

to tr Elements, who doesn't seem particularly valuable to pocket and would likely be wanted kept open for potential D1 lynchbait as one of the trollier players in this game. This is the case except when Elements is also scum. That's relevant because it would mean a future town!Elements flip I think offers some support for town!Isis.
(3) Isis appears to be quite experienced which means I'm less confident in reading them without associatives and VCA etc., especially since they're an alt and hence have no meta. In any case she appears both competent and proactive, someone helpful both in this day phase and later ones. So precluding a blatant scumslip I'd rule her out as the D1 lynch.

Spoiler: votato

and im still waiting for people with the red PMs to out... would be very helpful for some outside research im doing

Votato do you have a red role pm?

nope. mine is blue, or whatever the town color is.

I keep seeing this intentional scumslipping/scumclaiming nonsense. What game-theoretical purpose does it drive?

[Isis]

I'm an open alt, Deimos, you can request meta games if you want to

[Deimos27]

No, I think h.e.m. was townreading me either way. I just think it's somewhat scum indicative that at that juncture he's more concerned with litigating an approach to RVS that's slightly worse than any other approach rather building an emergent townbloc in a nightless game. It's not about dissonance, it's about priorities.
Like when I was in Guns and Roses and someone with zero games replaced in with an obvtown post that only one other person wanted to townlock, I spent like my next umpteen posts saying "cyanjet is town, don't ever lynch it after I'm dead".

In your post you certainly seemed to be speaking in terms of internal consistency and dissonance, no? This point you're now making about priorities I think has more value, since it shows some disposition towards IIoA.

I'm an open alt, Deimos, you can request meta games if you want to

Oh, I'm dumb I thought "open alt" meant an alt for open games. Yeah I'd appreciate it if you linked, say, your two most recent town and scum games on your main account. If you don't want to search through your own games just link the profile, I'll do it myself.

[Isis]

I can see how you could interpret it that way but my latter explanation is what I meant.

I'll fetch you four games in a moment.

[Isis]

*later

[Isis]

Scum, then town:

https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=52&t=82266
https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=81907

https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=82449
https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=84&t=82497

[Deimos27]

Wait... so i’m the mafia?

I'll get back to you on that when I'm done reading. Back to class for now.

And yes, I see what you did there.

[northsidegal]

Votecount 1.10

Target	Wagon
NorwegianboyEE (2)	Alisae (134), Green Crayons (178)
votato (2)	humaneatingmonkey (105), Elements (230)
Green Crayons (2)	Isis (228), Firebringer (235)
Isis (1)	Albert B. Rampage (263)
Firebringer (1)	Cycle Men (152)
Elements (1)	Looker (246)
humaneatingmonkey (1)	votato (239)
Cycle Men (1)	NorwegianboyEE (155)
Not Voting (1)	Deimos27 (269)

With 12 alive, it takes 7 to lynch. The Day 1 deadline is in (expired on 2020-05-08 06:42:59).

[Green Crayons]

why are people voting green crayons

he broke my hat

And I don't regret it.

[Green Crayons]

I think u got 48 hours left of my vote isis

What does this mean, by the way? I interpret it in two different ways, but neither makes sense.

[NorwegianboyEE]

I think u got 48 hours left of my vote isis

What does this mean, by the way? I interpret it in two different ways, but neither makes sense.

Pretty sure he’s referring to the agreement he would vote whoever they did for a limited time.

[Green Crayons]

Norwegian, who is scum?

[Deimos27]

Spoiler: Elements

I son't like votata's "ooh look idk what a town role pm is i must be scum oooh look oooh" (read int Morty's voice)

Why is it scummy? I see that behaviour from many players regardless of alignment just as part of a trolly meta.

I like isis although that coulld be just because they've expressed my play so far is town indicative

How does the fact that you're not sure yourself about your reasons for townreading Isis reflect on the reliability of that read? If you're aware that your reads are susceptible to pocketing, you should be trying to resolve that and identify the actual logical reasons in favour and against your read, rather than throwing your hands up and proclaiming uncertainty.

I'm thinking looker town atm and fire town

So far on page 4 these two have offered a grand total of approximately zero actual gamesolving content. Some people are proud about their ability to scumhunt through fluff. I am not. Why are these players town?

@Elements, questions within the spoiler. Feel free to ignore if already answered later in the thread.

Spoiler: Isis vs votato

votato what do you think of Elements?

i think thats a lot of reads to have on page 4. i also think thats a lot of reads to have without explaining them. but mostly i think its page 4, so im gonna wait about 40 pages before i come to any conclusions. or maybe not, we will see. i dont have any conclusions drawn yet. if element were to flip scum id wonder if you were trying to get a read on me to see if im dangerous and worth mislynching. the answer is that im not, and you coulda just said you had a red role pm and then asked me straight up.

I have all sorts of theory opinions about this topic I'd want to say postgame but I'm not sure whether they serve my wincon right now.

#91 strikes me a smidge disingenuous. Town!votato is pretty aware that an iso with little content besides scumclaim wifom isn't very threatening to a scum!Isis, irrespective of attitudes towards Elements.

Exactly. Im an unknown. I havent said anything useful so far iirc. Therefore, ask me a direct probing question so i either reveal danger level or look scummy, or both. The question serves town!isis, but also scum!isis

I'm inclined to agree with Isis that this is slightly scum-indicative from votato, not because his logic is wrong (though I do disagree with the scum motivation that he identifies if scum!Isis = True*), but because this comes off as unnecessarily throwing shade at Isis by bringing up the scum motivation when town motivation is equally likely and honestly rather obvious. I especially like this if town!Isis = True, since scum!votato shading her is completely consistent with his opinion that scum is well off targeting dangerous townies. Assuming he agrees with my assessment that Isis looks both experienced and competent, at least relative to many other players in this game.

*Votato's main point (which I think is clear enough in 95 at the latest) seems to be that scum!Isis has motivation to question him because he either makes a mistake and turns out to be an easy mislynch or reveals some degree of resistance (which votato implies is something that scum wants and would proceed to attempt to lynch). I find it very unlikely that the latter reason is present. Scum hardly needs to investigate how dangerous town!votato is at this time; they have a four player team, and plausibly already know from past experience who the dangerous scumhunters are, in case their gameplan is to push one of them. Furthermore, activating a so-far passive and unhelpful townie is way better for town than it is for scum.

Spoiler: HEM vs votato

why vote me, votato?

why vote me, votato?

it was a pretty obvious rvs vote. ive since moved to a different vote that is very serious, you should ask me about that instead

it's not because of what isis tried to do D1?

oh no. i think that its a dumb plan on its face in terms of doing it explicitly like that. i meant that organic food is a scam. so i guess in a way its because of isis, but more because of your response to what she said.

so it's not rvs.

and you said this:

The absence of something useful is a trek into the negatives. I don't know what meta you're used to, but active lurking is hardly something I'd ever consider "an unknown".

oh ill contribute later. and im not actively lurking, because im making no effort to seem like im contributing. until very recently, when you tricked me. away, demon!

and now that you say that, it's not true at all.

VOTE: votato

I am completely unable to follow HEM's thought process. An RVS vote is not necessarily completely random, many players employ joke reasons for them. In this case, votato's joke reason was in protesting to doing this "organically", which is why he says the cause is technically HEM (by making the comment about organics) and Isis in the longer term (by making her entrance which prompted the comment about organics). And as far as I can see these responses are perfectly consistent with someone who is making no pretense at contributing.
@HEM, please explain more comprehensively why votato is scummy here.

u are correct.
VOTE: humaneatingmonkey

u can have my vote for the next 72 hours. do what u wnt with 2 votes.

A sheep in growlithe's clothing. What is the cause of this apparently immense trust you have of Isis?

[Deimos27]

Do players just get more inclined to post fluff the more experienced they get? This open has like half the game-relevant-content density of a Newbie.

[Cycle Men]

Do players just get more inclined to post fluff the more experienced they get? This open has like half the game-relevant-content density of a Newbie.

yes

[Green Crayons]

If a player is Incredibly Serious From Page 1 in their first phases of being a mafia, they might swing too much in the other direction of Never Serious Until Day 2 in phase two.

[Green Crayons]

being a mafia player*

[Green Crayons]

ofc we haven't hit day 2 yet. still time for Very Serious Posts!

[Cycle Men]

If a player is Incredibly Serious From Page 1 in their first phases of being a mafia, they might swing too much in the other direction of Never Serious Until Day 2 in phase two.

oh hey my life story

[NorwegianboyEE]

Norwegian, who is scum?

Ehh. I’d prefer to base my reads around flips and wagon analyzis in a nightless. But i guess my weaker personal reads for go to scum would be fluffposter Firebringer and Lurkey Cycleman. Looker be looking kinda bad too. But he has an abhorrent towngame in my experience so anything goes.
A bit dissapointed Alisae hasn’t been on my ass more ever since that initial push. The fact that they pushed a scumread before becoming relatively toned down points to bad mojo if you ask me man.

[Deimos27]

Spoiler: Page 6 catch-up

norwee scum and if he actually flips scum im calling isis town
also monkey is probably town

reading pg 4 now

scum!Norwegian -> town!Isis makes sense because scum!Norwegian has no reason to fabricate that early suspicion of Isis when they're scumpartners, but why is HEM town?

mostly because it feels like Norwee is forcing himself to push this.
It just doesn't look like scumhunting to me

Watch me.
VOTE: Isis
VOTE: Isis
VOTE: Isis

Why is Isis scum though??

god i could go for a burger rn

Have you considered... playing the game?

[Deimos27]

If a player is Incredibly Serious From Page 1 in their first phases of being a mafia, they might swing too much in the other direction of Never Serious Until Day 2 in phase two.

oh hey my life story

Will you make any read whatsoever if I ask really nicely?
Or shall we policy lynch you instead? ^^

[NorwegianboyEE]

There are multiple slots in this game i’d be happy to see get policy lynched tbh.

[Deimos27]

why do you have pops avatar

I knew I'd seen that somewhere.

GREEN CRAYONS YOU ARE 3.14159265% OF WHY I QUEUED FOR THIS GAME U BETTER COME PLAY WITH ME

SAME!

Albert was super hyped for the game to start from what i remember in the queue.

Maybe he doesn't like playing as scum?

---

These votechart graphs are faaancy

VOTE: humaneatingmonkey

Is this a serious vote?