Mini Normal 2135 (Endgame)

[UnaBombaH]

Full disclosure: I was 1X. I withheld that yesterday to see if scum would target me N2.

Ok, this I do not believe for a second. But I'll give you a pass for now.

[Tanner]

Or can you give a meaning for Pandas role outside of providing a "false guilty"?

Pamda's role wouldn't be a false guilty for a Rolecop. Panda was Ascetic. A Rolecop would've returned "no result".

[Knightmare491]

I hate this game.

[UnaBombaH]

Or can you give a meaning for Pandas role outside of providing a "false guilty"?

Pamda's role wouldn't be a false guilty for a Rolecop. Panda was Ascetic. A Rolecop would've returned "no result".

Color me green and call me a Kiwi.
You are right.

[UnaBombaH]

But like...what the hell was the meaning of their role then?
They shouldn't claim it as to not stir the pot in a negative way, so they couldn't even try and become a "named townie" or whatever.
They couldn't be investigated for a clear.
They couldn't be neighborized because of the ascetic either, right?
They were just a role that meant nothing, and provided nothing?

Now I'm actually really confused.

[mavsfan41]

I’m a little confused about Panda’s flip. Their flip suggests Panda was in a day talk with others yes? And if that’s the case, do the people in that day talk thread know each other and are they confirmed town to each other? If that’s the case, where were they yesterday when Panda was racking up the votes and going to be lynched?!?!? Wtf?

Also, looking through the game during the night phase and re-evaluating the situation after the Panda flip, I found a weird post from both George Bailey and Riabi.

George’s is 505. Here he suggested this theory of double miller. He immediately accepted this but in 505 comes out and says he was ready to insta-vote me which is wild. He suggested double miller and when Drew flips, now he immediately reconsiders the theory he was pushing and claims he would’ve voted me had Persivul not come out and cleared me. He then walks this back immediately and votes Riabi for not accepting a double miller theory. I don’t know if I’ve mentions this or pointed this out previously but this one has a hypocrisy paragraphs apart.

I forgot what Riabi post I wanted to point out, but his ISO is strange. He pushes a lynch of Drew harder than Persivul and Drew is his only vote other than a RVS. He seems to fence sit too much for my liking. None of his posts seem original in terms of slinging suspicion and all sorta wagon on someone else. His ISO is worth another look.

My only issue here is that Riabi and George do go at it a little bit and this doesn’t strike me as SvS. I think scum is here but not sure which one. Maybe Riabi for his immense fence sitting. Thoughts?

Vote: Riabi

Post Riabi!

[PranaDevil]

VOTE: Prana

Town encryptor, but not neighbor or neighborizer, is really weird.

Full disclosure: I was 1X. I withheld that yesterday to see if scum would target me N2. Prana's setup attempt largely negated that. Still, scum probably don't have something obvious like strongman.

^ This is backpedalling to avoid having to give future results and an "excuse" as to why Persivul will survive future nights. "Why would the scum target a one shot?"

Panda was an encryptor, I have no clue what that means, does that mean we have a neighborizer on our hands, or another role that allows people to speak? Because without something to let Panda talk to someone, the role was utterly pointless...

Not necessarily true..?
Also, can't you see the potential "theme" taking shape in the game?
Immediately when I saw that Panda-flip I got a vibe like "townies you'd sort of want dead, but are still town"..
Miller, and potentially even double-Miller, and now an encryptor to potentially provide a false-guilty to the rolecop.

So... 3 anti-town roles, and a 1x shot town rolecop which would weaken town...?

If town is THAT weak, we had best have some super powered town roles to make up for it... where are they? Why is a 1x shot rolecop even a thing that works in a set up where we have 3 anti-town roles? That does not add up for a normal game to me.

It also does not strike me inherently as an anti-town role. It wasn't there so the scum could talk, as Panda had to be in whatever chat it was.

Like said, a "false guilty" for the assumed Rolecop. That flip makes me think that we really NEED to have a real cop somewhere too, or we are hopelessly outmatched by all this WIFOM-negative utility..

A 1x shot rolecop still leaves us hopelessly outmatched useless garbage.

This should also make everyone realise the rolecop is not required to be town. Anyone believing it just "because we have two millers" needs to step back and take a rethink.

Interestingly I have it totally backwards.
I was absolutely paranoid and leaning towards it being a scum-gambit yesterday, but now believe it to be more likely true with that flip.
Or can you give a meaning for Pandas role outside of providing a "false guilty"?

You somewhat make sense here... but again, Why a 1x shot? It does nothing for town as a 1x shot... so I don't buy it.

Persivul has done literally nothing all game, like... he's been active as fuck, all the way through, but not done any scum hunting, and if he was a legitimate 1x shot, then yesterday he should have been hammering home shit out of the park, get the scum to night kill him, over potentially hitting another power role... instead he twiddled his thumbs all game.

Now we "know" he's no longer a rolecop, and he can just wifom the fact he wasn't killed because the scum have better targets to find, he's at best a VT, and most likely, scum that is harmful to us. I'm happy to shift my vote to the most likely scum player here.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Persivul

[Tanner]

I’m a little confused about Panda’s flip. Their flip suggests Panda was in a day talk with others yes? And if that’s the case, do the people in that day talk thread know each other and are they confirmed town to each other? If that’s the case, where were they yesterday when Panda was racking up the votes and going to be lynched?!?!? Wtf?

Well... No. Panda wasn't in any PTs since she was a VT, and she couldn't be added into any PTs (by a Neighborizer if one exists) since she was Ascetic. She was basically a Named Townie, except a very shitty version of one.

I would argue that Persi being 1shot makes sense, but in that case Town probably has more PRs. I don't know when the optimal moment for massclaim is, if someone else does they're free to chime in.

VOTE: popopo

I'm going to vote this for now, additional slot that didn't do jack shit yesterday after catching up. Will try to reread parts of the game soon, but I have to reasses since Panda has flipped Town.

[popopopopopopo]

VOTE: Prana

Town encryptor, but not neighbor or neighborizer, is really weird.

Full disclosure: I was 1X. I withheld that yesterday to see if scum would target me N2. Prana's setup attempt largely negated that. Still, scum probably don't have something obvious like strongman.

very convenient to be a 1 shot.

persivuls actions make a lot of sense coming from scum. mavsfan had already claimed miller in thread and i think the consensus was that he was telling the truth. even with the rolecop inspect. persivul gets to get big town cred like he's a pr but avoids having to be accountable for any night actions moving forward, avoids having to give results THAT CAN EASILY BE DISPROVED. Just imagine for one second that persivul IS scum, of course he would claim 1 shot today because he cant confirm his role any longer because no1 else has outed there role in thread.

vote:persivul

[UnaBombaH]

Three goons, and all town has for utility is a 1-shot rolecop - to potentially negate at least one of the negative-utility roles?
Dunno where this site stands on balance regarding the "Mountainous" setup (all Vanillas on both sides).

[UnaBombaH]

OK, guess I don't need much else in terms of this "reaction test". (see? this time I won't drag it any longer. You all have scarred me permanently.)
We definitely flip Persivul today now that he has claimed a 1-shot modifier.
His flip either confirms mavsfan, or finally gives us a red flip.

And on a red flip, I really want to townbin popopopo and Tanner.

[Tanner]

And on a red flip, I really want to townbin popopopo and Tanner.

I'm sorry, for what reason do you townbin me upon Persi's RED flip?

[UnaBombaH]

Scum would have absolutely no reason to bus here.
They have a solid foundation for a game full on 50/50 slots and weird claims.
Only thing that could confirm Persivul now is another roleclaim, and for all we know, even that could be scum fakeclaiming.

Scum wants to go into a LyLo where we are forced to choose a lynch between slots like Riabi (hasn't been around much at all), and a claimed Rolecop.
I'd prefer if we try to resolve two slots at once today.

There's another angle to this all, but I do not want to say it yet, as it might affect our remaining PR. (I think I have a good hunch)

[UnaBombaH]

The slot that replaced into Luca Blight is actually popopopopopopo?
Might have to revisit my previous statement about a townbin.

[Tanner]

I still don't understand how I'm Town in your eyes if Persi flips red. I've not voted Persi at all and I've been very vocal in insisting he's Town?

[UnaBombaH]

There's a chain.

[Persivul]

Full disclosure: I was 1X. I withheld that yesterday to see if scum would target me N2.

Ok, this I do not believe for a second. But I'll give you a pass for now.

It's actually more understandable considering what you just posted. Designer didn't want to give too many negatives to town. If millers both claim, rolecop naturally uses his shot to check the survivor, doesn't have a shot left to get a false guilty on the encryptor.

[Persivul]

Or can you give a meaning for Pandas role outside of providing a "false guilty"?

Pamda's role wouldn't be a false guilty for a Rolecop. Panda was Ascetic. A Rolecop would've returned "no result".

That's right, forgot about that part.

[mavsfan41]

@Persivul: who did you target last night and what did you find out?

@Prana: your theory of Persivul makes sense. The only thing I wonder is why would Persivul claim he’s 1x unprovoked? Seems like something that would IMMEDIATELY have people (like you yelling “bs!” and rightfully so). The only thing I could possibly see Perisvul claiming outright he’s a 1x now with a doctor presumably on him is that he wants the doctor targeting someone else trying to tell scum to target elsewhere cause they can’t kill him. With the IC’s death, I figure if there was a doctor, that Persivul was targeted by the doctor as that’s ONLY place a doctor would go other than Eve. That claim of a 1x from Persivul seems strange for him to outright claim with no pressure which in turn would open him up to people being suspicious of him with no real reward for scum!Persivul. It is also getting convenient for Perisvul.

[Tanner]

@Persivul:

who did you target last night

and what did you find out?

@Prana: your theory of Persivul makes sense. The only thing I wonder is why would

Persivul claim he’s 1x

unprovoked?

...

[PranaDevil]

@Persivul: who did you target last night and what did you find out?

He targeted nobody, because he "targeted" you N1.

@Prana: your theory of Persivul makes sense. The only thing I wonder is why would Persivul claim he’s 1x unprovoked? Seems like something that would IMMEDIATELY have people (like you yelling “bs!” and rightfully so). The only thing I could possibly see Perisvul claiming outright he’s a 1x now with a doctor presumably on him is that he wants the doctor targeting someone else trying to tell scum to target elsewhere cause they can’t kill him. With the IC’s death, I figure if there was a doctor, that Persivul was targeted by the doctor as that’s ONLY place a doctor would go other than Eve. That claim of a 1x from Persivul seems strange for him to outright claim with no pressure which in turn would open him up to people being suspicious of him with no real reward for scum!Persivul. It is also getting convenient for Perisvul.

If he wanted to prevent a doctor targeting him, YESTERDAY was the day to point that out, because last night would be when a doc would target him if they believed his claim, and thus we lose the IC. If he's town, scum could leave him alive knowing there's suspicion on him, which also means you aren't fully trusted. So IF he was town... not announcing it yesterday was very anti-town.

He would claim 1x unprovoked because it is immediately "convenient" that he doesn't have to explain any results. He can now try the whole "I announced it early" card, and he can also give a very clear reason as to why he's not lynched tonight.

There is literally no town reason to claim 1x there. A 1x town rolecop there stays quiet and lets the scum try to take him out later.

[mavsfan41]

Oh, he 1x I thought meant he was claiming bulletproof. My bad.....

[UnaBombaH]

WTF happened there mavs?
You had talked about fakeclaiming a bulletproof instead of an 1x rolecop?

[UnaBombaH]

I kid because I love.

[PranaDevil]

So... looking away from Persivul for the meantime, there's more than just him as scum, I still believe we have three, as that's most logical with this number of players.

Which means we need to consider his partners.

A quick wagon check so far:

Drew-Sta

(7)Persivul;mavsfan41;Knightmare491;Riabi;

farside22

;GeorgeBailey;UnaBombaH;

Not on the lynching wagon - popopopopopopo, Tanner, PranaDevil,

Red Panda

,

Eve

,

Drew-Sta

Red Panda

(6)Tanner;Persivul;popopopopopopo;

Eve

;mavsfan41;Knightmare491

Not on the lynching wagon - GeorgeBailey, PranaDevil, Riabi, UnaBombaH,

Red Panda

I'm positive scum have to be on both wagons.

Interstingly, Persivul, mavs and Knightmare were on both wagons. I do not believe all three scum were on both wagons in the slightest, so at least one of those must be town. However, I also believe at least one of them is scum too (and we already know my feelings on Persivul and Knightmare)

I also believe scum would avoid a wagon too (yes, I know that sticks me in that position too).

So... on day 1, we can confirm only three people who are uncertain were not on the lynch: Myself, popo and Tanner. One of this trio is 100% scum. Because the alternative is all three scum were on the Drew wagon... which was the easiest lynch in the history of lynches. Even people who believed him (farside for instance) were on Drew's wagon, there was no reason for scum to jump on at all, especially as multiple people were willing to hammer (myself included) So I believe the scum had to be on that early... Maybe before someone counterclaimed... Oh look Persivul is the only one there. Scum did not need to be on that wagon after that point, so at most one scum is on after mavs (or mavs is the second scum... but I'm not sure of that right now).

On the day two wagon... well that was a harder sell than Drew, obviously. I'll also point out that Una unvoted right near the deadline to "re-read" which wasn't a great time to do that (but then... neither was my catch up a good timed thing either... but with 1 week days, it was never going to be well timed), so the chance of two scum being on there is very likely. I'm would think one at the start, and one at the end... but that means Tanner and popo cannot be scum if Persivul is scum. And the chance of all three scum being on Panda is slim... as a no lynch doesn't harm scum too much.

The day two wagon needs a closer look. If nobody voted Panda between Tanner and Persivul, they are not scum together. If people voted and removed their votes in between, they could be.

Obviously this isn't the only information needed, but I am better at wagon reading than people reading.

So... current status, Persivul needs to flip.

One of the Prana, Tanner, Popo group is 100% scum. I believe while scum didn't "need" to be on the Drew wagon, it's logical two would be, because it was easy to claim Drew seemed scummy and the counter claim sealed it.

Other scum I believe to still be Knightmare from previous reasoning.