Jigsaw's Revenge - Game Over

[GuiltyLion]

hmmm

I don't -love- Dany's claim bc if that's true that means I'm wildly reading the game wrong and scum-siding pretty hard right now - unless Gamma is Jigsaw

I do kinda buy two cops though, or at least don't feel that's inherently imbalanced.

I wanna see what MT/George think.

[GuiltyLion]

I guess the thing is, if iDanyBoy and Gamma were scum together, why does he claim to townclear his partner? Gamma would be in his corner already, and it wouldn't really buy Gamma further towncred after iDanyBoy flips

I wonder, of the people advocating only one scum in the large hood, who would that be, if we are to buy Dany's claims and results? Who is alive in that hood again? Drixx/VaultDweller/iDanyBoy/Gamma/George/davesaz? with Farside and Hectic dead?

[GuiltyLion]

danyBoy, Hectic's role PM does not mention a restriction in who he can target, and he was in the same hood as you. Why are you limited to your own hood, from a flavor perspective?

[iDanyboy]

My name is Detective Matt Gibson and I work for internal affairs.

I'm in the detective hood, so as I'm working for internal affairs there job is to investigate cops.

[BBmolla]

I might do stuff today

[Morning Tweet]

hmmm

I don't -love- Dany's claim bc if that's true that means I'm wildly reading the game wrong and scum-siding pretty hard right now - unless Gamma is Jigsaw

I do kinda buy two cops though, or at least don't feel that's inherently imbalanced.

I wanna see what MT/George think.

@GL, you think multiple cops isn't inherently imbalanced, but multiple x-shot BPs is?

The claim is a bit concerning to me. Would scum!dany pretend to pick farside and Gamma as his targets? Needs further exploration

Spoiler:

(iDanyboy)
farside
Hectic
Drixx
VaultDweller
Gamma
George
davesaz

To be honest I could see iDany investigating any of these people. Personally i'd have gone for farside, Drixx, or davesaz. George i meta townread. Vault and Gamma i had weak TLs.

So i don't think i can pull an AI argument from his picks ;(

I can’t convince you then. I don’t think I would make a fake cop play as scum.

I think this is a bad defense. It's clear that you're either a cop, or your mod-given fake claim is cop. It can't come from a pool of scum fakeclaims cause it's specific to your PT. So either way you were going to claim cop.

So for me, the main thing that would make me want to lynch iDany less is just the principle of cop being that valuable. Leaving him alive to clear more people would be immensely helpful later in the game if he does actually flip green.

But i'm not convinced that he is town based of his claim. It's the same thing he'd do as scum due to the mod-given fake claim

[Gamma Emerald]

BTW I never get angry as scum, so it's ridiculous to me to take a 13 year meta, of me never losing my cool when I'm scum, and with that proven track record, people still think I can be scum here because "maybe on his 200th game he will do something different". It's clownish.

Gamma and Dany are lurkscum all the way to day 3 where they are more active to try to mislynch, they have done nothing town for the entire game.

Buddy that’s known as a trust tell. Not saying this means anything for your appearance, just stating the facts.

[Gamma Emerald]

and much more inclined to lynch whoever complies with this request

Is this directed towards that group of 4 or everyone?

[Gamma Emerald]

What if the key is just a scum tool?

So they can put themselves into traps, have it announced but walk out while fooling everyone that theyre part of it.

It makes very little sense for his actual victims to have keys to the traps.

What if Gamma actually scumclaimed with his key shit?

No idea why he'd give it to ABR though, unless he's bussing here.

The way GE is approaching this feels like he's actively bussing, or trying to fire up a TvT

Not sure which it is exactly

these are some good thoughts btw

Gamma I think you need to flavor claim and explain why you have a key to the traps

and I still don't really buy that ABR is your strongest townread at night to the point where you give him this key, and then you flip so casually/easily to voting him today and not even entertaining ideas of ways to leash him to try to handoff or use the key.

p-edit: sure, fair enough. More activity from slots I think are town is always good. I just don't suspect him at all right now.

I can do this: I am Detective Allison Kerry and the flavor regarding my key is that I have a brilliant scientific mind. I assume that means the key is if the character’s own design rather than one found somewhere.
Also reading the flavor also made me notice that the key is said to negate “all negative effects”.

As for why I changed my mind like I did, I had a plan regarding having ABR give the key to a trusted player (which would have been Vecna or VD following Vecna’s claim) but I never spoke up about it because I was too worried about scum interfering and when my doubts were confirmed I dropped the idea entirely. So I thought about it but it never bore fruit for me.
Also I was pretty much on a coin flip between ABR and BM but the fact ABR tied something to his survival made me feel more inclined to give it to him, in case scum wanted to take that road.

[Gamma Emerald]

Because I didn’t have any read on him and didn’t think he would be night killed same for Gamma.

FYI in a vacuum this is good cop play so with Danny not really comprehending the game it seems I think his role usage is commendable

Now my concern regarding this claim is whether the flavor holds up, I’ll probably compare notes to Hectic’s flip if I decide to sleuth it out myself

[Gamma Emerald]

cop + cop + IC + IC = is too town-sided and can easily resolve itself for town after a couple days through dumb luck.

Someone is lying about their "innocents".

Who’s the other IC? If you mean VD that’s a different role, it’s essentially a Mason without the PT (it has a name but I don’t remember it).

[Gamma Emerald]

hmmm

I don't -love- Dany's claim bc if that's true that means I'm wildly reading the game wrong and scum-siding pretty hard right now - unless Gamma is Jigsaw

I do kinda buy two cops though, or at least don't feel that's inherently imbalanced.

I wanna see what MT/George think.

Both cops can only check 1/3 of the game and have a potential false positive
That kinda makes them less powerful than one would think

[Gamma Emerald]

Actually the fact that Jigsaw is essentially a godfather to cop roles combined with Danny’s second post in the PT (claiming Jigsaw is in our hood) makes his claim more believable

As for the original question about whether he indicated anything about his results there, he did not.

[Gamma Emerald]

Actually I don’t see where the hood-only clause is in Hectic’s role?

[Morning Tweet]

Actually the fact that Jigsaw is essentially a godfather to cop roles combined with Danny’s second post in the PT (claiming Jigsaw is in our hood) makes his claim more believable

As for the original question about whether he indicated anything about his results there, he did not.

What do u mean by iDany claiming Jigsaw is in your PT? Was that a theory of his from his role, or does he know that somehow

Also there is no hood-only clause in hectic's role. Hectic is a detective. iDany is claiming to be like an internal services guy

[Albert B. Rampage]

OK Gamma is town.

[Morning Tweet]

What if the key is just a scum tool?

So they can put themselves into traps, have it announced but walk out while fooling everyone that theyre part of it.

It makes very little sense for his actual victims to have keys to the traps.

What if Gamma actually scumclaimed with his key shit?

No idea why he'd give it to ABR though, unless he's bussing here.

The way GE is approaching this feels like he's actively bussing, or trying to fire up a TvT

Not sure which it is exactly

these are some good thoughts btw

Gamma I think you need to flavor claim and explain why you have a key to the traps

and I still don't really buy that ABR is your strongest townread at night to the point where you give him this key, and then you flip so casually/easily to voting him today and not even entertaining ideas of ways to leash him to try to handoff or use the key.

p-edit: sure, fair enough. More activity from slots I think are town is always good. I just don't suspect him at all right now.

I can do this: I am Detective Allison Kerry and the flavor regarding my key is that I have a brilliant scientific mind. I assume that means the key is if the character’s own design rather than one found somewhere.
Also reading the flavor also made me notice that the key is said to negate “all negative effects”.

As for why I changed my mind like I did, I had a plan regarding having ABR give the key to a trusted player (which would have been Vecna or VD following Vecna’s claim) but I never spoke up about it because I was too worried about scum interfering and when my doubts were confirmed I dropped the idea entirely. So I thought about it but it never bore fruit for me.
Also I was pretty much on a coin flip between ABR and BM but the fact ABR tied something to his survival made me feel more inclined to give it to him, in case scum wanted to take that road.

Actually feeling good about Gamma town now.. the claim makes me lean town for one. The whole "had a plan" thing actually seems genuine and really hard to make up

pedit: i was literally gonna say that..

[Morning Tweet]

Gamma and iDany really shouldn't be scum together-- i can't imagine iDany fakeclaiming one of his scumpartners as one of his clears.

Because A.) I do NOT want an ABR lynch and B.) iDany's claim doesn't clear him for me, iDany remains the best vote. iDany still claims this role if it's his mod fakeclaim.

I am also willing to explore Blake, dave, and Drixx either today or in the future. Possibly pisskop and BBMolla too but did get some measures of town

[Albert B. Rampage]

VOTE: bella

VOTE: bella

Damnit pisskop, don't undermine me!

Competing wagons are good

I think for sure one of pisskop/blake has to be scum now.

[Gamma Emerald]

Actually the fact that Jigsaw is essentially a godfather to cop roles combined with Danny’s second post in the PT (claiming Jigsaw is in our hood) makes his claim more believable

As for the original question about whether he indicated anything about his results there, he did not.

What do u mean by iDany claiming Jigsaw is in your PT? Was that a theory of his from his role, or does he know that somehow

Also there is no hood-only clause in hectic's role. Hectic is a detective. iDany is claiming to be like an internal services guy

Danny straight up said “Jigsaw is in here”, which is likely a conclusion based on his role, not actual certain info. However it lends credence to the claim.

[Albert B. Rampage]

But pisskop can't be scum with Blake. It's one or the other I'm just not sure which one.

UNVOTE:

[GuiltyLion]

yeah, I think I am definitely wrong on Gamma, and likely wrong on Dany as a result too.

Which means I gotta do a hard reset
UNVOTE:

[Albert B. Rampage]

BM struck lightning D1 and we lynched momo, maybe he can do it a second time? BM who do you think we should lynch?

[Drixx]

BTW I never get angry as scum, so it's ridiculous to me to take a 13 year meta, of me never losing my cool when I'm scum, and with that proven track record, people still think I can be scum here because "maybe on his 200th game he will do something different". It's clownish.

Gamma and Dany are lurkscum all the way to day 3 where they are more active to try to mislynch, they have done nothing town for the entire game.

Buddy that’s known as a trust tell. Not saying this means anything for your appearance, just stating the facts.

No it's not. If he had said "I always do X as Y, but never as Z" that's a trust tell. To violate the rule the player has to assert that they take a specific action only as a specific alignment, and then try and leverage that for gain.

This actually fails as a trust tell example for multiple reasons but I think that's the easiest one to spot.

[GuiltyLion]

I like the case on momo, but also place a high value on the power of competing wagons. Seeing Hectic struggle to find the case, which was very plainly stated by GL and by at least one person voting him, is entertaining at a minimum. It illustrates that he isn't truly reading and/or doesn't want to acknowledge it, and I think town would want to do both along with explicitly refuting it. I'll stay here but for the purposes of gauging wagon viability consider me willing to switch when needed.

re-examining Dave with fresh eyes in light of potentially town!Dany and town!Gamma, this feels a scummy excuse to stay on the Hectic wagon