Jigsaw's Revenge - Game Over

[Drixx]

The SAW franchise is all about subverting expectations. iDanny's claim actually makes me more inclined to think he might be scum.

BM's play here is setting of alarm bells of another player on site and what they did at last year's MU championships in our game (I was representing my home site). I could never quite make a logical case against them the whole game, but I kept coming back to them as scum. And they were.

That doesn't prove anything this game, of course, but "gut" is just another way of saying "My brain is trying to tell me something I didn't catch".

[pisskop]

jeez you guys, 16 pages in maybe 16 hours?

[GuiltyLion]

I am more inclined to buy Dany's claim given what Gamma is saying about him stating that Jigsaw was in the hood. I don't think scum is likely to have the foresight to plant that seed ahead of time in order to make his claim more believable.

[Morning Tweet]

The SAW franchise is all about subverting expectations. iDanny's claim actually makes me more inclined to think he might be scum.

Im gonna need an elaboration on this. iDany's claim has done nothing but make me doubt myself on him being scum.

UNVOTE:

I am still against the ABR wagon and strongly do not want that to be our lynch today

[Gamma Emerald]

BTW I never get angry as scum, so it's ridiculous to me to take a 13 year meta, of me never losing my cool when I'm scum, and with that proven track record, people still think I can be scum here because "maybe on his 200th game he will do something different". It's clownish.

Gamma and Dany are lurkscum all the way to day 3 where they are more active to try to mislynch, they have done nothing town for the entire game.

Buddy that’s known as a trust tell. Not saying this means anything for your appearance, just stating the facts.

No it's not. If he had said "I always do X as Y, but never as Z" that's a trust tell. To violate the rule the player has to assert that they take a specific action only as a specific alignment, and then try and leverage that for gain.

This actually fails as a trust tell example for multiple reasons but I think that's the easiest one to spot.

“ABR rages as town”

“[ABR] never rages as scum”

Tell how that’s not the exact formula you described?

[Drixx]

I am more inclined to buy Dany's claim given what Gamma is saying about him stating that Jigsaw was in the hood. I don't think scum is likely to have the foresight to plant that seed ahead of time in order to make his claim more believable.

I mean ... I think you're short selling scum GL. At least ... any time I'm scum or I'm scum with Cerb in hydra, we're actively planting seeds right from the start for anything we can think of that might bear fruit along role or flavor lines.

[Vecna]

What if the key is just a scum tool?

So they can put themselves into traps, have it announced but walk out while fooling everyone that theyre part of it.

It makes very little sense for his actual victims to have keys to the traps.

What if Gamma actually scumclaimed with his key shit?

No idea why he'd give it to ABR though, unless he's bussing here.

The way GE is approaching this feels like he's actively bussing, or trying to fire up a TvT

Not sure which it is exactly

these are some good thoughts btw

Gamma I think you need to flavor claim and explain why you have a key to the traps

and I still don't really buy that ABR is your strongest townread at night to the point where you give him this key, and then you flip so casually/easily to voting him today and not even entertaining ideas of ways to leash him to try to handoff or use the key.

p-edit: sure, fair enough. More activity from slots I think are town is always good. I just don't suspect him at all right now.

I can do this: I am Detective Allison Kerry and the flavor regarding my key is that I have a brilliant scientific mind. I assume that means the key is if the character’s own design rather than one found somewhere.
Also reading the flavor also made me notice that the key is said to negate “all negative effects”.

As for why I changed my mind like I did, I had a plan regarding having ABR give the key to a trusted player (which would have been Vecna or VD following Vecna’s claim) but I never spoke up about it because I was too worried about scum interfering and when my doubts were confirmed I dropped the idea entirely. So I thought about it but it never bore fruit for me.
Also I was pretty much on a coin flip between ABR and BM but the fact ABR tied something to his survival made me feel more inclined to give it to him, in case scum wanted to take that road.

Actually feeling good about Gamma town now.. the claim makes me lean town for one. The whole "had a plan" thing actually seems genuine and really hard to make up

pedit: i was literally gonna say that..

It reads as nonsensical to me, unless im just missing the essence

Why not hold on to the key and give it to that trusted player himself so the odds of scum interferance is way lower than when using a middle man? A middle man that on D2 had much less reason to be suspicious about.

This reasoning does not ring truthful to me, but its a nice attempt to try and talk himself out of it.

[Albert B. Rampage]

VOTE: Vecna

I think this is the right vote.

[Vecna]

uhhuh

[Albert B. Rampage]

Something is just not adding up.

Hectic flips cop
EJ flips innocent child
Vecna confirms vault as innocent
Danny claims cop

[Albert B. Rampage]

And I have the worst role in the game it seems.

[Albert B. Rampage]

1 scum in:
danny/vecna

1 scum in:
blake/pisskop

Town: Gamma, Morning Tweet, GuiltyLion, Vault (unless vecna flips scum)
That leaves: BM, pisskop, drixx, dave, BBmolla

[Albert B. Rampage]

EBWOP

1 scum in:
danny/vecna

1 scum in:
blake/pisskop

Town: Gamma, Morning Tweet, GuiltyLion, Vault (unless vecna flips scum)
That leaves: BM, George, drixx, dave, BBmolla

[Albert B. Rampage]

I like the case on momo, but also place a high value on the power of competing wagons. Seeing Hectic struggle to find the case, which was very plainly stated by GL and by at least one person voting him, is entertaining at a minimum. It illustrates that he isn't truly reading and/or doesn't want to acknowledge it, and I think town would want to do both along with explicitly refuting it. I'll stay here but for the purposes of gauging wagon viability consider me willing to switch when needed.

re-examining Dave with fresh eyes in light of potentially town!Dany and town!Gamma, this feels a scummy excuse to stay on the Hectic wagon

Yeah, I agree.

VOTE: Dave

[Albert B. Rampage]

BBmolla post quickly, I don't know if you're scum or not

[Albert B. Rampage]

blake/dave/danny/bbmolla are the last scum? Can you imagine?

[Albert B. Rampage]

Votecount 3.1

Albert B. Rampage (6) - Battle Mage, Vecna, iDanyboy, pisskop, Gamma Emerald, VaultDweller
iDanyboy (4) - Morning Tweet, GeorgeBailey, GuiltyLion, Albert B. Rampage

Not voting (4) - davesaz, Blake Belladonna, BBmolla, Drixx

(expired on 2020-05-16 19:49:00) remain until day end

With 14 players alive, it takes 8 to reach a majority.

"Up until now, you have spent your life among the dead, piecing together their final moments. You're good at this because you, like them, are also dead. Dead... on the inside."

[

But then this VC doesn't make any sense.

[Albert B. Rampage]

VOTE: iDanyboy

Nah I feel stupid if Danny is scum and we don't lynch him.

The simplest explanation is Danny is scum. I'm just too uncertain about anything else.

[Albert B. Rampage]

I think 567 wins over 564, no question.

Davesaz is also scum. 567 is not a good case.

Be careful when going this route. I've seen davesaz react very poorly to pressure like this as both alignments.

Not sure why you are saying such if you find him scummy.

You misunderstand.

I'm looking to prevent a toxic gamestate, which is a very realistic possibility in this scenario. My read has no relevance to this.

Is he or is he not one of your top scumreads?

I can already tell you won't listen to my warning.

Very well, I will watch from afar.

Sigh.

I'm not saying don't wagon him. I'm saying to be careful about it. He has a history of reacting very poorly to pressure like this and I expect it to escalate with somebody like Albert B. Rampage at the helm.

I've fallen into that same trap multiple times in the past and it has yet to go in a positive direction for town.

This was really weird on Day 1.

VOTE: Blake

Blake defending dave and suspecting him at the same time. Wouldn't be surprised if they are both scum together.

[Albert B. Rampage]

This game is crazy hard I need to think more on it.

UNVOTE:

[davesaz]

This game is crazy hard I need to think more on it.

This was me early d2 (which ended before I even got caught up).
It's me today too, ~24 hours of shitstorm followed by some mechanical stuff that sounds way too good to be true.

I can help on that post you're looking at. Yes, I freely admit that I thought Hectic was scum lying about not being able to see what the case against him was. And I freely admit that I wanted some VCA to work with (the competing wagons thing) and yup it sucks that said VCA ends up looking bad for me. I still haven't had a chance to examine D2 to see if we got anything useful VCA from it, though seriously doubt it. Today's wagons may be helpful.

[Gamma Emerald]

Something is just not adding up.

Hectic flips cop
EJ flips innocent child
Vecna confirms vault as innocent
Danny claims cop

And you don’t stick to your guns on Danny

WHY

?

[Albert B. Rampage]

I'm struggling to find the 4 scum is why. I'm not sure of any reads right now.

[Battle Mage]

My name is Detective Matt Gibson and I work for internal affairs.

I'm in the detective hood, so as I'm working for internal affairs there job is to investigate cops.

Instinctively I buy the flavour aspect of Dany's claim (as in, the internal affairs job being justification for having a role which only allows you to investigate within the detective hood). The role itself sounds completely plausible and not too powerful.

However:

It's an easy fake role-claim for scum, where he can buy himself lots of time.
It's Day 3 - scum have had plenty of time to come up with half decent fakeclaims now, after how badly Momo capitulated.

BM struck lightning D1 and we lynched momo, maybe he can do it a second time? BM who do you think we should lynch?

Still prefer lynching you. Aside from everything else we've already said, you are claiming VT, so it's a low-risk play anyway, and I don't want to spend the day running up wagons on everyone just to get claims. As above, scum should be able to put together a half decent fakeclaim by now.

The SAW franchise is all about subverting expectations. iDanny's claim actually makes me more inclined to think he might be scum.

BM's play here is setting of alarm bells of another player on site and what they did at last year's MU championships in our game (I was representing my home site). I could never quite make a logical case against them the whole game, but I kept coming back to them as scum. And they were.

That doesn't prove anything this game, of course, but "gut" is just another way of saying "My brain is trying to tell me something I didn't catch".

You're wasting your time here dude. But I'm taking a little something from the inference that I'm like a championship calibre player. Silver lining!

The SAW franchise is all about subverting expectations. iDanny's claim actually makes me more inclined to think he might be scum.

Im gonna need an elaboration on this. iDany's claim has done nothing but make me doubt myself on him being scum.

UNVOTE:

I am still against the ABR wagon and strongly do not want that to be our lynch today

MorningTweet, please see above. If you're town, don't spend the rest of the day running around bandwagonning people and getting claims for no reason. If we've outted another investigative (and that's a BIG IF), then that's already pretty bad. We should be expecting scum to be firing out some decent PR based fakeclaims by now, after what happened with Momo and ABR.

You will have to explain to me again why you strongly don't want ABR to be the lynch today. Because earlier, your reason was that you would rather lynch Danyboy. Now you doubt yourself on Danyboy, but you still won't go back to ABR, despite acknowledging he could be scum. It doesn't add up.

[Battle Mage]

My feeling about Danyboy is the same as Drix's feeling about me. I just feel every post has a scummy vibe.

Also, this is entirely consistent with how I've seen Danyboy play as scum, so that's worth noting.

With the claim, I'm torn. Probably in a similar place to where I started - I think he could easily be scum, but I don't think he's the right lynch for today.

The best and obvious scumlynch remains ABR. In addition to everything else, is nobody pinged by the fact he's returned to Day 1 form, being bombastic, running up people in the detective hood (where I've suggested there may only be 1 scum, and presumably a bunch of cop-type roles)? It's hard not to believe with his reaction to pressure earlier today, that he wasn't just scum who thought his goose was cooked.

If we're not going ABR, my recommendation would be to look outside the hoods at:

BBMolla
GuiltyLion
Pisskop

Vecna is also outside hoods, but I instinctively believe his claim. Although if VaultDweller hasn't already confirmed it, can someone please get him to do so? Just to verify that his flavour also includes something about looking for his son.