Mini Normal 2135 (Endgame)

[mavsfan41]

Yea, idk. Me thinking either town!Persivul being NK’ed or no one being NK’ed. But the IC makes sense now with a player roster of 9 and an IC limiting the pool (also with not Wake in the game). However, scum!Persivul is not necessarily cleared with my flip but my flip of miller would give him some cred (if he was fake-claiming). So why not me? Seems like more gain for scum!Persivul than the IC. No one is trying to lynch me so people do believe (at this point at least) that I’m a miller. So idk what my lynch-ability rating is, but with it being low, scum!Persivul has more to gain from my death and NK’ing me is the way it would be. I still think scum!Persivul would know I’m not aligned with him and therefore have no reason to doubt my miller claim.

@Prana: with him being 1x role cop, yea, it absolutely makes sense for him to claim yesterday if he were town. Also I get the suspicion surrounding an easy claim but why not claim he “targeted” one of his scum buddies and say they’re VT? A little less suspicious than straight up claiming 1x role cop. I get that his lynch or his scum buddy’s lynch would out both, but that seems like a better move to make. And with two mislynches, scum really only has to survive one more and then lylo. Claiming 1x role cop does seem scummy but I think scum!Persivul would perhaps play the situation a little differently. If he did “target” his scum buddy, presumably he picked the one gaining the most suspicion and has an easy justification for why he chose his target. I think that would be a better gambit than saying 1x role cop.

[PranaDevil]

@Prana: with him being 1x role cop, yea, it absolutely makes sense for him to claim yesterday if he were town. Also I get the suspicion surrounding an easy claim but why not claim he “targeted” one of his scum buddies and say they’re VT? A little less suspicious than straight up claiming 1x role cop. I get that his lynch or his scum buddy’s lynch would out both, but that seems like a better move to make.

You answered it yourself. He's not cleared. If he were to "clear" a scum buddy there is suspicion on them. He could have done it with an actual town player too, but it risks hitting a PR, so not worth it.

[mavsfan41]

@Tanner: you vote popopo in 782. Have your thoughts on Knightmare shifted?

[Tanner]

Not yet, no. My best guess is still some combination of popo/Knight/Riabi/Prana. However, I see that I was dead wrong on Panda, and should probably reassess. While Persivul thought Knightmare was Town, I don't think I've caught anyone thinking so about popo, so I'm fine with having my vote there before I'm able to relook at the game. Won't happen today, sorry, I'm pretty tired, but I'll go over the most important parts again soon.

[PranaDevil]

I think everyone should ISO the three not on the D1 wagon (me, popo/Luca, and Tanner), and push there, even if we lynch Persivul today, because looking at those slots is important.

[Tanner]

How much difference do you make between "being on wagon of a counterclaimed Miller" and "being off wagon of a counterclaimed Miller while still constantly pushing for his lynch"?

[PranaDevil]

How much difference do you make between "being on wagon of a counterclaimed Miller" and "being off wagon of a counterclaimed Miller while still constantly pushing for his lynch"?

In that case... it depends entirely on situation, I'd say checking ISO's is important.

If it was near the end of the wagon and they didn't want to quick hammer, that's an important thing, as more discussion is important. If it was early on they had been talking about how scummy Drew was but never voted at all... then that's scummy.

[Persivul]

Fakeclaiming Rolecop makes no sense for scum. Any townies actually considering that should be embarrassed.

[PranaDevil]

Fakeclaiming Rolecop makes no sense for scum

lol, just because you say that, doesn't make it true. I've explained exactly why it makes more sense for scum than town

Also I don't think you fakeclaimed. I think you ARE a rolecop. The scum rolecop.

[Persivul]

Claiming makes no sense, and confirming mavs as miller really makes no sense. But whatever. You're the main pusher. If I die, mavs is confirmed, and you die tomorrow.

[PranaDevil]

No.

Claiming means if mavs is town, you bought his trust.

You've not confirmed mavs unless you flip town, and if he IS a miller, and he flipped, then you could claim town points.

Why did you not claim 1 shot yesterday when it would have been beneficial?
Why did you not scum hunt at all thus far?
Why are you not pushing people for answers, and instead just coasting by every single day by posting literally nothing?
What are your thoughts in the three people who weren't on Drew's wagon? Do you believe scum would all be on Drew's wagon? How many do you think are on there?
What about those who are being quiet? Have you any views on those slots?
What about Tanner? He's had very little in the way of sideways glances, let alone anything else, do you have a read on him?

[Persivul]

No.

Claiming means if mavs is town, you bought his trust.

Why did I need mavs trust?

You've not confirmed mavs unless you flip town,

Of course. I've said as much, multiple times. Why are you pretending otherwise?

and if he IS a miller, and he flipped, then you could claim town points.

Not at all. I saw no reason to doubt him. Scum gain nothing by faking a CC there, as millers tend to get lynched anyway. Indeed, there were people on D1 saying that even if Drew flips miller, mavs would need to die D2. I prevented that.

Why did you not claim 1 shot yesterday when it would have been beneficial?

Why aren't you reading? I already explained that. Misrepping me like this shows that you have an agenda. You're not trying to sort me.

Why did you not scum hunt at all thus far?

Another misrep, repeated many times. Again, just because I don't post walls like you doesn't mean I don't scum hunt. Plus, again, you didn't do jack until you saw how D1 went, then you started the wall posts on D2.

Why are you not pushing people for answers, and instead just coasting by every single day by posting literally nothing?

Please explain this from 728: "Based on what I've read so far, I do not see Panda as scum"
I asked you about it in 730.
You dodged an answer in 732.
I pushed for an answer in 735.
You dodged again in 736.

So, please:
- answer the original question.
- explain why you charge me with not pushing people for answers, when I clearly have.

What are your thoughts in the three people who weren't on Drew's wagon? Do you believe scum would all be on Drew's wagon? How many do you think are on there?

You and Luca scum, Tanner town. This is also clear from my posting. Why do you pretend like I don't have positions on these people?
Regarding numbers, scum like to be OFF wagons when possible, and with the miller CC, it was pretty easy for them to stay off.

What about those who are being quiet? Have you any views on those slots?
What about Tanner? He's had very little in the way of sideways glances, let alone anything else, do you have a read on him?

Did you miss my reads list BOTH times that I posted it?

[Persivul]

Prana progression on Panda:

397 - Suggesting Drew has "flail[ed] like a fish" is really bad.
721 - Panda #372 Is bad, I comment on it in #397 below, it still stands....Prana #397 I still stand by. Red Panda's #372 is really bad there....

So, Panda is really bad, bad, and really bad, but then:
728 - Based on what I've read so far, I do not see Panda as scum, why in the blue hell should I vote Panda "now" over someone who is my top scum read?

But just 4 posts and 29 minutes later:
736 - So... Scum team is leaning in the grouping of:
Persivul
Knightmare
Panda
Una

So:
- Prana's posts on Panda are all negative - "really bad."
- But, when I note that he's starting a vanity wagon near end of phase, he now says he doesn't see Panda as scum.
- But, 29 minutes later, he DOES see Panda as scum...but doesn't vote there.

This is classic positioning by scum to try to fit in with the group, but not be on the lynch in the VCs.

[Persivul]

But you, as scum, would want to latch onto mavs, and ride into the sunset so if he WAS the lynch today... you could buy town cred, and if he wasn't, but he dies later... you have town cred.

You think I get town cred from a mavs flip.

Persivul 60 towny

Eve made one mention of me, saying that I'm towny. Nothing for me to fear there.

From my POV, mavs MUST die just as much as Eve. There's no way I could have turned on him later. I know they both have to go before LYLO.

Both of them were town reading me.

You say I get town cred from a mavs flip.

Yet, Eve was killed instead of mavs.

[Persivul]

If Drew flips Miller, there will still be TWO miller claims, the fact one has been lynched does not change that, and it drastically changes the dynamic, as we're going into this lynch assuming Drew will flip scum, based solely off the "Why would scum CC just to die day 2?" situation.

If Drew does, indeed, flip town, we will obviously need to consider other possibilities, and a huge one will obviously be "do we believe there to be two millers?" And... we're lynching Drew off the back of the idea there's unlikely to be two Millers... so what actually changes if he flips town? Are you suggesting everyone should just accept there's "obviously two millers"? Because it would be your word against that then.

I highly doubt there's two millers, so if Drew flips town, I'm more than happy to come after you tomorrow.

I will still be looking elsewhere to see what happened, and what interactions happened and where, but to ignore how unlikely two millers would be, would be extremely poor.

This is Prana on D1 setting up mavs for a D2 lynch, which of course didn't happen because of my rolecop result. Same as he was setting me up yesterday for a lynch today.

[Persivul]

OK, guess I don't need much else in terms of this "reaction test". (see? this time I won't drag it any longer. You all have scarred me permanently.)
We definitely flip Persivul today now that he has claimed a 1-shot modifier.

Why? It fits very well with two millers.

His flip either confirms mavsfan, or finally gives us a red flip.

It confirms mavsfan, who is promptly killed tonight.

And on a red flip, I really want to townbin popopopo and Tanner.

Tanner? Seems to me we've been pretty comfortable with each other most of the game. Why Tanner?

[popopopopopopo]

im still scum reading nightmare.

persivul lied yesterday and i believe he is still not being truthful with us.

[PranaDevil]

and if he IS a miller, and he flipped, then you could claim town points.

Not at all. I saw no reason to doubt him. Scum gain nothing by faking a CC there, as millers tend to get lynched anyway. Indeed, there were people on D1 saying that even if Drew flips miller, mavs would need to die D2. I prevented that.

False, when you claimed, people were voting, but not at mavs, there was zero danger at him being lynched "just because". You prevented nothing, and you know it.

Why did you not claim 1 shot yesterday when it would have been beneficial?

Why aren't you reading? I already explained that. Misrepping me like this shows that you have an agenda. You're not trying to sort me.

I read what you said, it makes no sense from town.

Why did you not scum hunt at all thus far?

Another misrep, repeated many times. Again, just because I don't post walls like you doesn't mean I don't scum hunt. Plus, again, you didn't do jack until you saw how D1 went, then you started the wall posts on D2.

Why are you not pushing people for answers, and instead just coasting by every single day by posting literally nothing?

Please explain this from 728: "Based on what I've read so far, I do not see Panda as scum"
I asked you about it in 730.
You dodged an answer in 732.
I pushed for an answer in 735.
You dodged again in 736.

So, please:
- answer the original question.
- explain why you charge me with not pushing people for answers, when I clearly have.

I was looking at all posts, and was doing a catch up. A couple of bad posts at that time were not scummy enough to warrant a scum read.

I push you for not asking for answers because pretty much every post in your ISO is fluff. And like a couple of bad posts isn't by itself scummy, one or two good ones doesn't make you town.

What are your thoughts in the three people who weren't on Drew's wagon? Do you believe scum would all be on Drew's wagon? How many do you think are on there?

You and Luca scum, Tanner town. This is also clear from my posting. Why do you pretend like I don't have positions on these people?
Regarding numbers, scum like to be OFF wagons when possible, and with the miller CC, it was pretty easy for them to stay off.

What about those who are being quiet? Have you any views on those slots?
What about Tanner? He's had very little in the way of sideways glances, let alone anything else, do you have a read on him?

Did you miss my reads list BOTH times that I posted it?

That's a great way to continue not scum hunting. Until someone flips green, or are confirmed in some way, everyone is potential scum. "I've said this before and I refuse to continue looking" is not town.

Prana progression on Panda:

397 - Suggesting Drew has "flail[ed] like a fish" is really bad.
721 - Panda #372 Is bad, I comment on it in #397 below, it still stands....Prana #397 I still stand by. Red Panda's #372 is really bad there....

So, Panda is really bad, bad, and really bad, but then:
728 - Based on what I've read so far, I do not see Panda as scum, why in the blue hell should I vote Panda "now" over someone who is my top scum read?

But just 4 posts and 29 minutes later:
736 - So... Scum team is leaning in the grouping of:
Persivul
Knightmare
Panda
Una

So:
- Prana's posts on Panda are all negative - "really bad."
- But, when I note that he's starting a vanity wagon near end of phase, he now says he doesn't see Panda as scum.
- But, 29 minutes later, he DOES see Panda as scum...but doesn't vote there.

This is classic positioning by scum to try to fit in with the group, but not be on the lynch in the VCs.

This entire post is misrepresentation at its finest.

Do you not understand how catching up works? Actually... we know you do. We all know you are blatantly painting the story you want to tell.

But you, as scum, would want to latch onto mavs, and ride into the sunset so if he WAS the lynch today... you could buy town cred, and if he wasn't, but he dies later... you have town cred.

You think I get town cred from a mavs flip.

No, I think you wanted town cred. And you claim I misrepresent you...

[Persivul]

Spoiler:

Apologies for the length of this, but what mavs said earlier was right, I've done not too much scum hunting, and too much discussion about game set up (which in itself isn't bad, but by itself, helps nobody).

So this is where I'm at on my re-read:

Una #26... Still not a fan of. Jumps in, after something he could mention has happened (Tanner taking Persivul to L-2), but ignores it to call me scum and vote for Luca. He never mentions this again.

Una #61 Suggests to not have Wake vote anywhere (I'll admit I considered the idea right after)

Tanner #67 No real comment towards why a Drew vote was good, just did so. Just piggybacked on with Persivul. Extremely unhappy looking back at that.

Persivul #68 Is very much against Wake not voting due to how tough it would be to lynch scum. I mention this as it could be argued he had to make sure he didn't come off shifty by simply ignoring it if people know he normally would do it (I'm not checking other games for that info either). But, right there, it feels more town to want all the town to be able to lynch as it's harder to lynch scum if one town we know won't be on the wagon. Scum are likely to want the least town pushing for them as possible.

Persivul #92 actually feels like town giving people a heads up about the time limit. Would have been easy to just ignore it as scum.

Tanner #101 is bad, very bad. Just randomly votes Knightmare for no reason I can see.

Una #125 suggesting "we are ready for the lynch now" still rubs me up the wrong way. Less talking is good for scum, and bad for town.

farside #126 Says she found a game where two people claimed Miller, and both were town. I'm afraid she was wrong, looking at it, TwoInAMillion and MortFeld both claimed Miller. The game ended in a town win with TIAM's lynch, so he could not have been town. So still no evidence of two millers in a normal.

GB #144 Bought the double miller thing very fast.

Una #165 states he had a "reason" for not voting Drew... despite in #125 saying we are ready for the lynch. My top read is currently Una at this point as it feels like he knows Drew will turn green, and wants to avoid it.

Una #167 votes Tanner seemingly at random.

Tanner #175 Buddies George, an he did so earlier in the game too. (As stated in Drew #177)

Tanner #181 talks only about if Drew were scum, it means George is likely to be town due to a poor defense of him, while Knightmare is likely to be scum due to the "turbobus". Drew however flipped town... ScumGeorge would buy the double miller thing faster than others if he knew both were town, while Knightmare could be town or scum with the fast voting.

Knightmare #195 pulled up my #143, well after doing other responses from before, and after, that post, and only did so because Riabi did so in #192

Persivul #241 is bad. Pushing for quick lynching of Drew, and suggesting the vig doesn't shoot if we have one, which... we have a perfect vig shot in the other miller after Drew flipped green. I'd rather we fixed the miller situation over not shooting. I see no town motivation for this.

farside #248 calls Persivul scum, I'm not entirely certain I see where she's coming from based on the post she shared. I do have a similar feeling from the above (which contradicts my earlier thought from #68 and #92)

This is up to the end of page 10. I'm going to have to call it quits there for the full page reading (I plan to pick it up tomorrow).

Biggest scum reads in no real order right now (as there's plenty still to read):
Una - #165, I feel he knew Drew would flip green.
Persivul - Pushing for a quick lynch, and suggesting the vig doesn't shoot the claimed miller? Erm...
Tanner - Buddying George, only talks about scum Drew, never considered Town Drew while discussing why he was ignoring George buying the two miller thing.
GB - Bought the two miller claim way too fast.

He made the same kind of catch-up post in his last scum game as well:
https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.p ... 8#p8759318

[Persivul]

and if he IS a miller, and he flipped, then you could claim town points.

Not at all. I saw no reason to doubt him. Scum gain nothing by faking a CC there, as millers tend to get lynched anyway. Indeed, there were people on D1 saying that even if Drew flips miller, mavs would need to die D2. I prevented that.

False, when you claimed, people were voting, but not at mavs, there was zero danger at him being lynched "just because". You prevented nothing, and you know it.

I already showed that some people - YOU - were setting him up for a D2 lynch:

If Drew flips Miller, there will still be TWO miller claims, the fact one has been lynched does not change that, and it drastically changes the dynamic, as we're going into this lynch assuming Drew will flip scum, based solely off the "Why would scum CC just to die day 2?" situation.

If Drew does, indeed, flip town, we will obviously need to consider other possibilities, and a huge one will obviously be "do we believe there to be two millers?" And... we're lynching Drew off the back of the idea there's unlikely to be two Millers... so what actually changes if he flips town? Are you suggesting everyone should just accept there's "obviously two millers"? Because it would be your word against that then.

I highly doubt there's two millers, so if Drew flips town, I'm more than happy to come after you tomorrow.

I will still be looking elsewhere to see what happened, and what interactions happened and where, but to ignore how unlikely two millers would be, would be extremely poor.

This is Prana on D1 setting up mavs for a D2 lynch, which of course didn't happen because of my rolecop result. Same as he was setting me up yesterday for a lynch today.

This shows that you don't even remember your own positions, which is more likely to come from scum than from town. It also shows that your agenda is to lynch me, not to sort me. If you were really trying to sort me, you would have accepted this and opened discussion, rather than making a knee-jerk denial.

It's also telling that you didn't respond to 814. Surely you read two more posts and saw it. Again, if you were trying to sort me, you might have said something like

I forgot about that, you're right, you did act to prevent a mislynch

. Instead you ignore it because it doesn't fit your narrative.

[Persivul]

Why did you not claim 1 shot yesterday when it would have been beneficial?

Why aren't you reading? I already explained that. Misrepping me like this shows that you have an agenda. You're not trying to sort me.

I read what you said, it makes no sense from town.

Yes, it makes perfect sense from town. I'm now effectively a VT. If scum had an obvious scum role and thought I had more shots, they might have killed me, which:
- creates another conftown in mavs
- gives another night to town PRs

It would have made zero town sense for me to claim 1X yesterday.

BTW, why would it be difficult for a scum rolecop to have to provide results? How would that catch me up?

[Persivul]

Why did you not scum hunt at all thus far?

Another misrep, repeated many times. Again, just because I don't post walls like you doesn't mean I don't scum hunt. Plus, again, you didn't do jack until you saw how D1 went, then you started the wall posts on D2.

Why are you not pushing people for answers, and instead just coasting by every single day by posting literally nothing?

Please explain this from 728: "Based on what I've read so far, I do not see Panda as scum"
I asked you about it in 730.
You dodged an answer in 732.
I pushed for an answer in 735.
You dodged again in 736.

So, please:
- answer the original question.
- explain why you charge me with not pushing people for answers, when I clearly have.

I was looking at all posts, and was doing a catch up. A couple of bad posts at that time were not scummy enough to warrant a scum read.

A half hour later you had the scum read on Panda, yet you didn't change your vote or declare intent. You wanted to be OFF that wagon.

I push you for not asking for answers because pretty much every post in your ISO is fluff.

Except for the posts where I was actually pushing you for answers, and you dodged.

[Tanner]

I have gone through popo's (very short) ISO and would like to point some things out.

page 1 down i already have a scumread (kngithmare)

Shortly after catching up, he expresses a scumread on Knightmare.

I believe mavs is a miller, the rolecop claim is slightly more up in the air, but the argument someone made that it would be far easier for scum to sit back and mislynch the miller today then claim rolecop and clear them makes enough sense to me for now.

-snip-

-snip-

this useless setup spec is not helpful, but its a good way to avoid scumhunting and look like youre doing something productive. same with the doctor talk, honestly prana looks like hes hunting for PRs at points today.\

scumreads - redpanda,

prana

, knight

(in that order)

townreads -

persi

, mavs, GB, Una (im tired i will try and work out a few more townreads tomorrow)

vote: redpanda

This is his catchup post with just the parts I want to comment on.

Notice that, with regards to Persi, he says that (1) the Rolecop claim makes sense to him for the Day and (2) that he listed Persi as a Townread.

With regards to Prana, popo says how one of his posts is useless and not helpful, and lists him as his second strongest scumread. (after Panda, before Knight.)

redpanda's latest posts dont do much to sway my view. still happy with my vote. i could get on board with a prana wagon when the time comes but as it is im fine with panda.

He did literally nothing for the rest of Day 2, eventually prodging to make sure the Panda wagon goes through.

i dont believe that shit for a second

Today, his first reaction is that Persivul is lying.

VOTE: Prana

Town encryptor, but not neighbor or neighborizer, is really weird.

Full disclosure: I was 1X. I withheld that yesterday to see if scum would target me N2. Prana's setup attempt largely negated that. Still, scum probably don't have something obvious like strongman.

very convenient to be a 1 shot.

persivuls actions make a lot of sense coming from scum. mavsfan had already claimed miller in thread and i think the consensus was that he was telling the truth. even with the rolecop inspect. persivul gets to get big town cred like he's a pr but avoids having to be accountable for any night actions moving forward, avoids having to give results THAT CAN EASILY BE DISPROVED. Just imagine for one second that persivul IS scum, of course he would claim 1 shot today because he cant confirm his role any longer because no1 else has outed there role in thread.

vote:persivul

All of a sudden, Persivul's actions make sense coming from scum, and the consensus was that mavs was telling the truth.

im still scum reading nightmare.

persivul lied yesterday and i believe he is still not being truthful with us.

And he chimes in that he's "still scumreading Knightmare", but notice how his scumread on Prana (who was a bigger scumread than Knightmare!) is mysteriously gone.

I would like to add, the idea that Persi's scum for not claiming his 1s modifier yeterday is complete bullshit. I have recently seen a game where the inverse of this gambit happened. There was a 1shot Cop and a full Rolecop in the game. Both of them were forced to claim on Day 2. 1shot Cop truthfully claimed 1shot Cop, while the Rolecop lied and claimed 1shot Rolecop. And you know what happened? Scum killed the 1shot Cop instead, and the Rolecop was able to provide an additional result that ended up clearing a player down the line. So get out with that shit.

[Persivul]

Right... so...

Panda was an encryptor, I have no clue what that means, does that mean we have a neighborizer on our hands, or another role that allows people to speak? Because without something to let Panda talk to someone, the role was utterly pointless...

It also does not strike me inherently as an anti-town role. It wasn't there so the scum could talk, as Panda had to be in whatever chat it was.

This should also make everyone realise the rolecop is not required to be town. Anyone believing it just "because we have two millers" needs to step back and take a rethink.

Knightmare and Persivul are both still super scummy, and I want a Persivul lynch ideally, but am also willing to hold off for a cop to check him if we have one, and to see if he dies at night if we don't.

VOTE: Knightmare491

VOTE: Prana

Town encryptor, but not neighbor or neighborizer, is really weird.

Full disclosure: I was 1X. I withheld that yesterday to see if scum would target me N2. Prana's setup attempt largely negated that. Still, scum probably don't have something obvious like strongman.

1. If I'm scum, I'm happy that you're not pushing me. I don't poke you. Yet in the next post, I vote you. That's not a scum move.

2. Why were you willing to wait for a cop to check me?

[Persivul]

Tanner, where are you on Prana? For as much scummy shit that I'm seeing, I've also seen a couple things townie, e.g. his progression on you.