Jigsaw's Revenge - Game Over

[Battle Mage]

why do you keep commenting on my ABR read if you don't want to hear about it? seriously dudeee (*ﾉω-)

I suppose in the vain hope you stop digging that hole for yourself.

[Albert B. Rampage]

Ok bois

We lynching danny or what

[Morning Tweet]

Lets just lynch Danny I think we all agree he's scum and were just too scared of his big claim.

well ya pretty much

It was fricking multi-coloured. gimme a break dude.

there's only 1 scum in your hood, don't think it's you.

you should know your own hood flavour from your role pm.

scum is ABR, 2 of (BBMolla, GuiltyLion, Pisskop), and 1 from your hood (probably Danyboy)

you do not know this. this is coming entirely from your setup spec. try reading the game outside of it and see what comes of it

I'm confident. I think if I was wrong, at least 1 scum would have leapt on it. But the only way to find out is to try, and I'm a big fan of giving town the best chance to win.

You seriously don't need to be giving me advice about reading the game objectively.

anSWER THE EMOJI QUESTION

[Morning Tweet]

It was fricking multi-coloured. gimme a break dude.

there's only 1 scum in your hood, don't think it's you.

you should know your own hood flavour from your role pm.

scum is ABR, 2 of (BBMolla, GuiltyLion, Pisskop), and 1 from your hood (probably Danyboy)

you do not know this. this is coming entirely from your setup spec. try reading the game outside of it and see what comes of it

I'm confident. I think if I was wrong, at least 1 scum would have leapt on it. But the only way to find out is to try, and I'm a big fan of giving town the best chance to win.

the reason no one is leaping on it is way more likely to be because it's wrong. the fact you're taking no one agreeing with you as a sign that you're correct is.. actually kinda funny

[Eddie Cane]

I don't want to vote you, I think you're town.

vote BBmolla

I think Dany is more likely to be scum, Molla is not a town read but Dany is actively scummy.

Mathematically, we have more chance hitting scum with BBMolla. And you'll note ABR scum has been keen to lynch pretty much anyone today, except BBMolla.

What does that tell you?

I don't understand the mathematical point. I will detail my thoughts on Dany later, is Molla scum to you or just not townie and more likely scum by PoE?

[SirCakez]

Since apparently there is confusion over my definition of role madness, I'll also add that there can be more than one of the same role. As well, factional abilities do not count as a role (so a Mafia Goon with factional powers would not exist).

[Drixx]

I decline Eddie Cane. I haven't had time to read probably 1500 of the posts in this game yet. If you want to be a little less shotgun and little more sniper rifle with a request, I'll try to oblige.

Interested in the scumtell you say you saw with ABR.

[Eddie Cane]

Firstly: relooked at some of BM's setup/mechanics stuff. I, in fact, am not going to have time to properly post tonight. To let people stew: when Battle Mage was attacking ABR, I think tonally he sounded very townie. However, it did ping me pretty heavily that he didn't actually really engage with Battle Mage's arguments at all. I don't believe there was any point he tried to speak with BM in good faith or reply to his points diplomatically, but instead resigned to emotion and deflection. Ignoring well-composed arguments tends to be a scum thing. Also, following that, ABR's evaluation of BM seems odd - I got the idea he hard town read BM D2/early D3, but when BM started pushing him he changed to wanting to lynch - don't remember who, but somebody said something like "why not wagon BM" and ABR was like "ye that's my second lynch" or smth. Felt off with his trajectory, I'd think town ABR would react to BM with lolidiot not lolscum and anger. It sounded like scum who felt they were caught for the wrong reasons, ie with mod providing them a neighbor fakeclaim and BM tunnelling on that, or for things they believe are irrelevant. The more I type, the more I'm talking myself out of my ABR town lean, damn. But probably wouldn't vote today at any rate.

I can pull up quotes from computer when I have time if needed. But, I think in the grand scheme of things, ABR skews null to town. I think Morning Tweet is town regardless of ABR's alignment, and BM is

probably

town regardless of ABR's alignment. And, on the note of ABR v BM, I thought Drixx had a scummy popin during that argument. Dany's vote on ABR reminded me a lot of this:

VOTE: eddie

where Dany came from completely flaking on a game (like here) to pop in with an essentially naked vote on a wagon being hard pushed by town (this assumes BM!town).

I’m a VT.

Dany also claimed quickly in this game.

I'll do a proper reads list tomorrow, but for now the cliffnotes version to spark discussion because this game is stagnant: MT very town, Vault town partly from Vecna and partly from how he reacted to being "green checked", Gamma town because he was pretty town anyways, may have a cop inno, and scum almost never actually green check their partners in my experience, Drixx a bit scummy (and seen a couple people (I think BM/MT) call him townie maybe it was from the bulk of d1 I did not read could use an explanation), spicy town read on Blake/Fire, BM I have a rabbit hole paranoia read I don't want to go down unless asked but overall pretty town, should probably have a read on vecna but don't, thought he was townie but doubting myself and looking for the momo bus votes so IDFK, don't remember anything of substance from GL or Piss (that's scummier for GL because he's the one there good at mafia), molla has not seemed obv town yet which might make him scum but would like to hear fire's read.

[Albert B. Rampage]

His case against me was so well thought out, I simply had no defense to mount.

Either that or I wouldn't entertain setup spec and flavor on day 3. Unless you think I should respond to anything in particular?

[Morning Tweet]

@Eddie, Battle Mage thinks Drixx is obvtown and hasn't said why (as far as i know). I don't townread Drixx

You make a good point about ABR not *exactly* driving the momo wagon but sort of taking credit for it. i've been under the impression that ABR/BM were behind momo in similar amounts but it was pretty heavily BM. That might be the only part of BM's case i can sympathize with to some extent

that's a really good catchup considering how unbearable d3 probably is to read

[Eddie Cane]

I read some of pre-scum flip d1 and some random other parts before, and I want to clarify overall I still have ABR as null/slightly town. This is purely discussing the bad.

By far the dumbest case I ever read and way worse than Xtoxm.

This was the first reaction from you, which is not constructive or trying to engage BM. Because mafia is a team game, and even if you believe BM is the worst player to ever play, trying to convince him you are town if you believe he is town is important -

especially

so as he is in the "town leader" role. And, as far as I can tell, you thought he was town up to this point.

Why was BM so sure of xtoxm yesterday that every post he made was a death tunnel?

Without me there's no momo lynch Day 1. BMs theory is 2 scum in a 4 person hood AND I TRY TO MURDER BOTH MY HOOD MATES PINE AND BM N1?????

I didn't read much of d2, so this is all me interpreting posts about it from today. Based on the post Vecna quoted, it looks like you were happy to lynch Xtoxm too, and from what I read EoD1 you were only semi involved in killing Momo.

Maybe BM is paranoid because all my predictions are accurate, everyone killed at night was someone I townread so far. In any case Blake is scum and after today we can stop listening to BM forever.

(As an aside - please explain Blake scum if you still think it? I know you're not voting there but you've pushed there semi recently)
The rest of this page is okay, just some banter and small posts from both parties.

Neighbor is basically vt in this game. Got no powers at night.

Ok I hate to float this idea but what if BM is jigsaw?

Mod said BM killed people N1. He bussed his buddy for infinite towncred and claims BP?

Just a wild theory and ive no interest in voting BM for the next few days just keep that in mind.

Anyways peace out BM needs to be humbled vote Blake kthx

I believe the post said "Due to choices BM made, Elsa died", as in BM was trapped. I am not super familiar with lore but I have played a few saw setup games with trapping as the nks before, and Jigsaw was never allowed to trap themselves. But aside from that, I actually don't think the notion Momo was bussed is crazy, he's a bad player and its actually arguably likely. But this reaction feels more discreditory mafia than knee-jerk town. Not a big deal outside of expressing interest in later lynching BM.

sidenote - reading back through, remembering Piss actually was a bit townie, forgot this

- provided he's not with ABR exactly

Here's the bigger issue though: #1878 has some good points in it, some I'll admit are reachy. #1892 and #1893 are bad-mannered replies and where it devolves.

BM is blacklisted from all my future games if he's town

This and the following flurry of posts after BM only posted a long not-attacking post just seem unnecessary. I think

tonally

they sound town, but my impression is ABR is a good to very good player and AtE is an effective way to sidestep a convincing case. Posts like #1905 are nonsense.

So I dunno, there's some pingy things. I dunno why everyone's so damn confrontational this game.

[Morning Tweet]

Amanda Young faked being in a trap in Saw II (she still had to play it and was in some danger. See: needle pit), and Hoffman faked being in a trap in Saw IV (he was faking being in the trap, he was in no danger. See: ice block trap).

Dr Gordon, Amanda, and Logan all had to go through real traps before becoming acolytes, as well

[Eddie Cane]

You make a good point about ABR not *exactly* driving the momo wagon but sort of taking credit for it. i've been under the impression that ABR/BM were behind momo in similar amounts but it was pretty heavily BM. That might be the only part of BM's case i can sympathize with to some extent

I remember rb gave a stat a couple years ago where d1 scum lynches resulted in scum wins more often than d1 mislynches. The flavour suits this game my impression reading d1 was that BM buried the fuck out of momo, and momo pushed you (MT) for super whack reasons early on that didn't read like theater (on top of you already sounding extremely town today).

Unless you think I should respond to anything in particular?

So to answer directly, I think you should have responded to his well-formatted post with something, rather than degrading into personal attacks. At this point, it seems pretty irrelevant. I probably wouldn't vote you today, and I almost definitely wouldn't vote BM, so its a moot point and we don't need to dredge that part of the game up. I am just more interested in explaining your Blake lock scum read, and why it shifted to killing Dany.

@Eddie Cane

Spoiler: Readslist

BAT //

Morning Tweet I

TOWN BLOCK //

VaultDweller
Battle Mage I

HEAVY TOWN LEAN //

Albert B. Rampage
Vecna

TOWN LEAN //

GeorgeBailey
GuiltyLion I
Gamma Emerald

UNSURE //

iDanyboy
Davesaz
pisskop
BBmolla

SOME BAD LOOKS //

Drixx
Blake Belladonna

Players are ordered within their tier as well from most town to least town (or in iDany's case, how much i want to lynch him atm)
i put tick marks next to players showing how many games they've been in

-===================-

Spoiler: iDany

Very scummy slot. I want iDany to keep living on and give us more cop results, though. Will reconsider in the days to come.

Spoiler: davesaz

Dave is more here because i don’t explicitly townread him more than anything. I put him above my other unsures. Tbh? Reading through his recent ISO actually doesn’t look that bad. He makes good observations at least

A good few of his posts are explaining why he joined the Hectic wagon. Which is fair enough.

There isn’t enough for me to form a solid townread on dave yet though


2395 - Dave explains he voted Hectic because he thought hectic was scum lying about not being able to see the case against him. And also wanted to help get some wagon VCA going.

I do worry about leaning on the Hectic wagon too heavily, since at the time I did give some thought to joining it. Ultimately i liked momo’s better, but there is certainly town on Hectic and we need to find that


2418 - Dave feels it makes sense that iDany’s claim would be a cop when he’s in a cop PT

I agree


2470 - Dave points out that Pine was a double neighbour, and he finds it suspicious people are making a big deal out of the neighbour claim.

again I’m inclined to agree.

Spoiler: pisskop

Kinda bad hop on to ABR in 2063. Did he really think that ABR accidentally claimed VT..? i would expect him to think about how unlikely ABR accidentally fakeclaims a role that doesnt exist

2022 raises a good point and could possibly explain his progression on ABR.

1890 oh apparently pisskop is, in fact, not interested in lynching ABR at this point when there was pressure on ABR. This suggests that pisskop did hop on ABR thinking that ABR claimed something invalid. ok

1872 - I like his willingness to vote Blake or iDany, they are good preferences

pisskop seems generally excited about getting lynches and competing wagons going. Tonally i had a slight townread enough to put him higher than some others. For a large part i find pisskop hard to read so it is partially just a PoE as well

There is this whole d1 interaction where apparently pisskop lied about his PT status? Haven't gone back to actually deeply read that but it could be of some use.

Spoiler: BBMolla

Vecna informed me that BBMolla wasn’t really that invested in Doubles Mafia, and was more or less forced to post. Thank ye for the info


1807 / 2010 - “Can we lynch Gamma / iDany”

iDany was fair at the time. Gamma too, although now i’m starting to think both these individuals may be town and just earlier lynchbait :O


2120 - “ABR is not a VT, he’s a neighbour”

Thank you. I still think pisskop thinking he slipped VT is weird.


2354 / 2407 - “I’ll do stuff” …… “If I were scum I’d be doing stuff”

What


2455 - BBMolla says we can hammer him since he’s already claimed and he doesn’t care

What


2480 - “Vault Dweller and iDany is scum”

(*ﾉω-)


2487 / 2488 / 2489 - BBMolla doesn’t seem to get why Vault is nearly confirmed town

Unsure whether to attribute this to being a faked act or simply BBMolla not really reading into it very closely. His posts prior would certainly suggest he’s not having a lot of time to engage with the game

Spoiler: Drixx

Wary of his suspicion on Vecna and Battle Mage. He seems to be getting the opposite vibes from it that i’d expect.

He ALSO gets the opposite reaction from iDany’s claim, thinking it makes iDany more scum that he claimed cop.. Dunno what to make of this. Why does Drixx suspect all of those who claim?

Not BBMolla’s claim though. Nor has Drixx ever expressed a suspicion on BBMolla. Drixx doesn’t have anywhere in his ISO (that is semi recent) where he outlines what his reads are. He just seems to comment on BM, iDany, Vecna, and Vault (suspicions on all 4).

So with my PoE plus his gameplay, I do not have a lot of confidence in this slot being town

938 - Drixx asking why people townread Hectic

Spoiler: Blake

1089 - “Apologies, I meant to unvote last time I visited the thread.”

I may be biased, but this sounds kinda like it could be a faked thought process. Drixx wasn’t in any kind of pressure. There didn’t really seem to be any reason to say this. Definitely a nitpick though. This post also contributes to a large trend of Blake saying she’ll go to this game but not really ending up getting to it sadly


1300 - Blake says the Drixx and Elsa wagons were acceptable, but the Battle Mage and Vecna wagons were awkward. Her townread on Hectic is going down, and she feels like she should be townreading Morning by now. Dave is unlikely scum if Morning is scum.

Oooh. Hectic was in her highest townreads in 512, but it seemed to progressively melt away. You can see this process in 801, where she comments her trust in Hectic is dwindling. She does comment she has a lot of townreads though


1384 / 1392 / 1398 - Blake makes very sure over multiple posts that ABR did not declare his plan in the neighbourhood to fake push Hectic then turn on momo.

Farside actually points out to Blake that it should be obvious that ABR didn’t spoil the plan to his neighbourhood. I tend to agree. This could be Blake wanting to fake exhibit a sense of cautiousness


1687 - Readslist

She townbins BBMolla and townreads dave + Drixx. I wonder if she feels she can freely townread her partners and use her reputation as a good town player to have people sheep her.

Morning and ABR are her nullreads. Hm okay. I’d kind of expect someone on the scumteam to try and place paranoia on ABR if ABR is town.

And then she pushes Gamma and iDany as being her highest scumreads, voting Gamma. I wonder what made Gamma more scummy than iDany..?


1741 - Claims nothing ABR has done is town

Can see this coming from a town perspective as well as a scum one. ABR has made really controversial statements surrounding the neighbourhoods. Still, if ABR is town, i’d expect someone on the scumteam to try and bring him down


I think her defense on Xtoxm could have had scummy intent. Most of the game kinda just went with the flow assuming BM had some good information. I admit that i did townread Xtoxm and i wanted to defend him too, though

The replaceout is curious but i won’t really focus on it too much. Blake never had a chance to comment on BM’s case on ABR which is a shame..

Overall i could very well see Blake scum with at least a couple in BBMolla/dave/Drixx, possibly iDany!scum as a bus or simply iDany!town. And this would make ABR town as well i think.

Blake scum would make ABR town, I agree. I don't think your reasons for pushing Blake are terrible, but they feel strawmanny - like you came to the conclusion Blake was scum, and then built a narrative around it. I have a few reasons to think that slot is town if you'd like me to expand, but Fire is a pretty easy read so it shouldn't matter. I think Piss sounds town tonally as well, but a lot of slots are townier and he's a tough read, agreed. I actually agree with almost all of your reads and explanations (ie Dave actually sounds okay just hasn't done a ton), other than wimping out of obvscum claiming PR.

[Eddie Cane]

Amanda Young faked being in a trap in Saw II (she still had to play it and was in some danger. See: needle pit), and Hoffman faked being in a trap in Saw IV (he was faking being in the trap, he was in no danger. See: ice block trap).

Dr Gordon, Amanda, and Logan all had to go through real traps before becoming acolytes, as well

All this flavor is making me want to watch the series, lore sounds awesome.

Spoiler: Saw setup - credit to Shiny

No Night KP. Mod RNGs one key to be given between all non-trapped players; this key is lost at EOD. At the beginning of the day, mod announces who receives the key. Keys are used by messaging the mod your choice; mod will reveal who is saved, but will not reveal who used the key. Players cannot be saved from the head-trap twice. 5 min days (at least). Traps will NOT trigger during a formal; if traps remain on players after the formal is voted/rescinded (assuming 3 min after day starts), it will trigger. If the game goes to a F3, there will be no traps.

Mafia:

- Jigsaw - Picks two of any players (including self) starting n0; when day begins, they wake up with a head-trap (announced). Traps still on players three minutes after day begins will trigger and kill the players. PLAYERS KILLED THIS WAY DO NOT HAVE ALIGNMENT FLIPS. If Jigsaw dies, one of the Pigs are randomly selected to become new Jigsaw.
- Pig - Once per game, he can deny the distribution of the RNG key for that day. This power is NOT LOST upon turning into Jigsaw.
- Amanda Young - Full Lost Wolf. If trapped and saved, she IMMEDIATELY becomes a Pig and is added to Mafia night chat, gaining her own use of the Pig’s power. If both Jigsaw and Pig die before she is ‘activated,’ town wins.

Town:

- Detective Matthews - Parity Cop (n1 first check)
- Detective Kerry - Has one key that can be used to save someone. This key can be used to save someone who has already been saved. If trapped, cannot use key on herself.
- 5 VT

This is the setup I've played a few times (format is different - we play with video cameras in a group call). Essentially, the takeaway is that Jigsaw cannot trap themselves, but they

can

trap other mafia (the lost wolf or their known partner). While I'm mentioning it, mafia fairly often

do

trap their partners, probably above rand. However, this setup appears to have more agenda when trapped, indicated by flavor ("due to choices made by BM, Elsa died") and it sounds pretty OP to be able to trap mafia and still have them kill town. And, on that note, I doubt mafia chooses

elsa

as the threat to kill (unless BM didn't have a choice?), another reason indicating BM town.

[GuiltyLion]

@Drixx - can you give your read on danyBoy?

You have almost no interactions about/with him except to disagree with him about the merits of BM's case and then to disagree with me when I wonder whether danyboy saying Jigsaw is in his hood is unlikely to be scum premeditating their fakeclaim. I have no idea what your actual read on him is at all.

I kinda feel Drixx is scummier and scummier the more I think about it - the way he shaded momo but kept pushing BM/Vecna instead on D1 feels agenda-y.

[GuiltyLion]

I'll do a proper reads list tomorrow, but for now the cliffnotes version to spark discussion because this game is stagnant: MT very town, Vault town partly from Vecna and partly from how he reacted to being "green checked", Gamma town because he was pretty town anyways, may have a cop inno, and scum almost never actually green check their partners in my experience, Drixx a bit scummy (and seen a couple people (I think BM/MT) call him townie maybe it was from the bulk of d1 I did not read could use an explanation), spicy town read on Blake/Fire, BM I have a rabbit hole paranoia read I don't want to go down unless asked but overall pretty town, should probably have a read on vecna but don't, thought he was townie but doubting myself and looking for the momo bus votes so IDFK, don't remember anything of substance from GL or Piss (that's scummier for GL because he's the one there good at mafia), molla has not seemed obv town yet which might make him scum but would like to hear fire's read.

I like these reads overall - I think Vecna is clearly town though

I'm happy to sheep you/MT today. I personally kinda want to give dany a day with that claim and lynch elsewhere, but if we're set on him seemling like obvscum and worth lynching through the claim then ultimately I'm on board with that

[Morning Tweet]

from what eddie's said, im leaning on crossing out Blake-Firebringer for now

pisskop i also kinda want to cross out

davesaz there isn't really anything explicitly scummy about, just a little bit quiet to be honest

iDany is universally agreed to be scummy, but we disagree on whether or not we let him live a night. i personally kinda wanna let him live to make scum uncomfortable in the case that he is actually town, if that makes sense. Cause after iDany is flipped down the line, we'll have have a collection of info if he is actually working for us

I wouldn't be too unhappy with a BB lynch. Kinda not sure how to read him at this point. I had him as town on earlier days but honestly not sure why

Drixx is not looking too hot

My lynch preferences atm:

Drixx>BBMolla>iDanyboy

Are there any lynch candidates im forgetting? >x3

[Morning Tweet]

Woaaoaoh

Happy birthday Guilty!!

VOTE: Drixx

[VaultDweller]

considering how unbearable d3 probably is to read

First post in a while I completely agree with

[pisskop]

oh good, just the quote i want to see at 4am.

[Morning Tweet]

hey now, just the bits where ABR, BM, or I are talking

.....oh that's all of d3? hmm

[pisskop]

I should play. I want to want to.

[VaultDweller]

Spoiler:

Here's the list of players I will NOT lynch today: Pisskop, momo, drixx, BM, Hectic, MT, farside, EJ. I think today is a crapshoot as far lynching correctly because town is dysfunctional, and am mainly angling for Day 2 analysis. I need to get the building blocks of early, serious bandwagons that have a chance to tip over to a real lynch. Make of that what you will.

The way Albert has played this day out is incredibly scummy. He's said I'm 99% scum but has refused to write the case on me or give resasons because "it's better if I let people see it themselves", essentially meaning no discussion can be had about

why

I'm scum, and the game can't be progressed.

VOTE: momo

The gig is up, Hectic, we know you're scum now!

*pulls the curtain to reveal the sign*

WELCOME, SCUM!

The jig is up you got caught.

Anyway, in other news, Hectic is scum.

You've gone from townreading me to mysteriously having a scumread as soon as I disliked some of your posts and started pushing Almo.

You disagreed with me in post 969 about something I said in post 329. I'm over it, Hectic... LOL

I'm 99% certain that Hectic is scum. This is our lynch today. I can see you guys are having a hard time pushing a bandwagon beyond 3 votes, so I'll try to reduce my activity for the final 7 days until we can consolidate around Hectic.

Hectic's posts in the last 24 hours guarantee he is scum. His thought progression simply makes no sense unless he is scum.

How is it that the only one picking up on Hectic claiming scum is GL?

I really HATE to explain myself unless we will lose if I don't. It's much better for me to give a few hints and then solve the rest of the game based on reactions. If in a few real life days nobody has figured out why Hectic is scum, I will write the case myself.

Or we could always give him a pass and try to lynch his teammates to give scum a fighting chance, because they are royally screwed in this game.

This Hectic wagon is ass.

nobody cares about your claim.

Im not joining the hectic wagon

I know, farside. You are the other scum. I saw it coming.

I'm pretty sure this is a reaction test by ABR and if not I'm concerned lmao

No it's genuine. All my other reads are cleared.

Farside/Hectic is 2/5 the scumteam and I have 3 to go.

"Why else would we not know our hoodmates?"

This post of pisskop is entirely consistent with him not being in a hood. Pisskop is either lying consistently or is town.

You should look at Hectic AGAIN.

meh

VOTE: pine

Posts like this make pisskop look scummy. He needs to join the HECTIC WINWAGON.

farside is scum guys

Doesn't matter, vote Hectic.

Sigh, how many votes am I on? Don't hammer before I have a chance to claim.

[A TV Cable Repair Man giving into streaming services]

Given how close we are to deadline, it's time you consider your options.

I can see a world where Momo is town and I can see a world where Hectic is scum but I'm feeling Momo over Hectic unless ABR has an especially compelling point on something I'm not seeing

Stay active, we will need you to finish off Hectic as the clock ticks to midnight.

Seriously, in what world is this town?

He's been memeposting "hEcTiC iS sCuM" and that's literally it the past few days.

Why was BM so sure of xtoxm yesterday that every post he made was a death tunnel?

Without me there's no momo lynch Day 1. BMs theory is 2 scum in a 4 person hood AND I TRY TO MURDER BOTH MY HOOD MATES PINE AND BM N1?????

VOTE: Albert B Rampage

1) Partly due to the case above, which admittedly isn't very solid, but is the best I've got. There were some other quotes I wanted to include as well, but I lost them. Tl;dr:
- He did a 180 degree U-turn on his Momo read D1.
- Hectic was pretty sure he was scum, and given how accurately he read momo, I am giving this some weight.
- He claimed the momo lynch, even though it was initiated by Hectic (from what I read of D1 at least, hadn't read everything, was V/LA at the time).

2) And partly because it's the lynch that will give us the most information. The last few pages have been a mess, and I doubt I will get a solid read on anyone today.

[Vecna]

This game is confirmed Role Madness, there are no Vanilla Townies or Mafia Goons.

Just a reminder that this is the mods definition so a neighbor is perfectly acceptable

ABR might be scum regardless of that but a case built on that is foolish

FOOOOLIOIISSHH

I think BM is the one using that as evidence against ABR

This is a misrepresentation, I've been clear on my view that I don't believe there are plain old town neighbours in the game. Conceptually there could be. But I don't think there is. So ABR would then be lying, duh.

Look at the flips we already have

[Vecna]

he's also dead, which confirms that neighbour is a possible role in this role madness game, thereby answering iDany's post. so.. yeah

your defense of drixx reminds me of something i could say to you about ABR. as I said i haven't really looked thru yet but my inital lynchpool is something like Drixx/dave/Blake/pisskop/BBMolla

BBMolla? great, time to put the chips in! I'll take Pisskop as a compromise if absolutely necessary.

I think you misunderstood my point about Momo - he wasn't a normal neighbour, he was a

scum

neighbour. So that is a "role" which is not a standard vanilla role. Clearly there are a couple of those in the game, so it seems obtuse to suggest the existence of scum in the hoods proves there must be vanilla town neighbours in the game. Personally, I don't buy it, and once again you've made a deduction which seems objectively unlikely and portrayed it as fact. This is not conduct which feels protown to me.

"Scum" is an alignment. "Neighbour" is a role. The fact he was on the scumteam does not make his role somehow more special than a town neighbour.

Momo's flip proves that neighbour is an acceptable role in this role madness.

I think of being on a scumteam as being a power role, coz u get to do shit, innit?

Seriously though, the point is not whether it's conceptually possible to have a town neighbour, but whether you actually believe there is 1. I do not. You evidently do. But we are getting to a point where it becomes less and less likely as more and more claims come out.

Maybe we can cut to the chase - if ABR purported to be the only vanilla town neighbour in the entire game, would you believe him?

Are you forgetting that Pine was a town neighbour?

I would expect somewhere between maybe 1-3 town neighbours. It will not surprise me AT ALL if there is multiple. 75% of the game is in PTs.

Pine was a double neighbour. His special ability was being in 2 hoods. Let's not go round in circles on this please.

still means that being neighbourly meets the role madness criteria

Also, someone also did the thing in their good iwth the momo role which confirms the same if they werent bullshitting