Animals Upick [Game Over]

[farside22]

Mod Edit -- Click here for the Votecount on the previous page

Birds and Blatant are the main wagons right now, and they’re both defending votato. I think that’s indicative of them all being town wagons.

This is in conjunction with me just generally feeling like they’re both town.

Votato could be scum still, though

We literally can confirm the role, votato votes are scummy.

And if a role block comes in somewhere then it’s confirmed roleblock and we can lynch votato tomorrow.

And how exactly would you like to confirm votato's role? He now claimed that the target has to be attacked too in order for him to do any action.

You got to think about an RB, or something else out there that could mess with it.
I don't see why April thinks votato has to be town just based on the claim. It could be fake.

@April: Besides the claim from votato could you explain your town read on him?

I’m fine with being roleblocked too, that just gives us info on the game.

I also don’t have Votato as high town, i said they could still be scum, i think it’s fine to wait a day, though in the chance that we legit do confirm him.

We literally can confirm the role, votato votes are scummy.

And if a role block comes in somewhere then it’s confirmed roleblock and we can lynch votato tomorrow.

No we realistically cannot given his addtional information about his role.

Town votato would be a prime target to get roleblocked. Scum votato can just claim to be rbed. Thus votato claiming to be roleblocked day 2 would be NAI.

If we do somehow coordinate a town KP, you, and votato (who all have to be town for it to work) all on the same person without scum interference, then we all should laugh before beating the scum team for being incompetent.

Tldr: the only way town!votato can be confirmed given what we know is if the scum team makes a mistake (or they dont have a roleblocker/way to stop it). As such the plan to confirm him is far too risky since scum!votato can lie about the rb and then the town KP needed to set it all off kills the target. It can be minimized I guess by choosing a scummy person to kill theoretically, but then that's also going down the rabbit hole of further role speculation.

How do you know scum have a roleblocker?

This is also something that gets figured out this way, i don’t get the hold up.

Votato isn’t even like the #1 choice, he looks like low hanging fruit in the first place. Impatience in people is scummy.

We literally can confirm the role, votato votes are scummy.

And if a role block comes in somewhere then it’s confirmed roleblock and we can lynch votato tomorrow.

No we realistically cannot given his addtional information about his role.

Town votato would be a prime target to get roleblocked. Scum votato can just claim to be rbed. Thus votato claiming to be roleblocked day 2 would be NAI.

If we do somehow coordinate a town KP, you, and votato (who all have to be town for it to work) all on the same person without scum interference, then we all should laugh before beating the scum team for being incompetent.

Tldr: the only way town!votato can be confirmed given what we know is if the scum team makes a mistake (or they dont have a roleblocker/way to stop it). As such the plan to confirm him is far too risky since scum!votato can lie about the rb and then the town KP needed to set it all off kills the target. It can be minimized I guess by choosing a scummy person to kill theoretically, but then that's also going down the rabbit hole of further role speculation.

Wastling a vigi shot probably isn't worth confirming votato.

Don’t you think he’s scum?

It’s not a waste if he’s scum.

This is literally the point of it all.

If a kill goes through, he is essentially confirmed scum. If not, then he’s town or scum and I was blocked or he was blocked. That’s great info.

People who are trying to against this are just plain scummy regardless of your read on Votato.

I’m actually dead null on Votato as of right now tbh. I just don’t care enough to think about the slot today when i can get more info out of it over night.

Never called him town.

Rereading apeil she scum reads him till the claim then cares more about clearing him but i wondered with her constant desire to have this proof is so she looks good.

[PenguinPower]

Alright, so votato is a watcher that will heal the "janitor" part of a kill of the person he watches, correct? So, Player Y gets nightkilled and janitored, votato will see Player SCUM visit Y, and Y will flip the next day due to votato's janitor "heal". Correct me if I'm misinterpreting that.

Hard to correct you when the player who claims to have that role has said it does two different things.

(i don't think you are correct though)

[Birds and the Boys]

I find it hard to believe you really think his sum total of literally nine posts is enough of a reason to be making meta claims as strong as this one. So I want to ask for the receipts - please link me to these town games and these scum games you are referring to, and then let's look together at his first 9 posts in each game (as well as the size/activity levels of each game) and see whether this point holds up to scrutiny.

What are you trying to say here, Hobbes? Are you saying that you do not think I truly believe my assertions about Dunnstral? Here are Dunnstral's most recent completed games that I am aware of

https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=55&t=81613 - Large Normal 225 (town)
https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=55&t=81317 - Large Normal 224 (town)
https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=53&t=81560 - Mini Normal 2111 (town)
https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=150&t=81775 - TM2020 Whiteflag (town)
https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=82018 - Titus v. Alisae (scum)

Convenient does not mean "a wagon already exists on them", it means it's a relatively easy vote to place and justify.

Having a spicy wagon like Votato at L-1 or BS aggressively arguing with people is a less convenient vote for scum in early D1, because it means you are going to be required to spend effort explaining why you are bandwagoning there and it will receive scrutiny/attention when the wagon gets hot. No one cares who is or isn't voting Chemist right now, he hasn't done enough to be a factor in the game, there's been no real attention being paid to him. Therefore he's a convenient vote.

I didn't discuss this reasoning specifically with Auro but we did agree last night that your slot looks bad while I was catching up.

Well, in that case, you can consider votato hammered. At the time I posted the gif of Voldemort eating the unicorn, I was prepared to hammer votato, but we waited to see if votato would organically engage the game according to what votato promised while getting wagoned. Votato did then follow through with those promises and in general their play does not make much sense coming from scum.

About your definition of convenient... does that mean if we had started a wagon on Chemist and got him lynched we would still have a convenient vote? I don't understand your approach to this game. By your definition, any vote that is not on a leading wagon is convenient. That is just... I thoroughly disagree with that approach to thinking about the game.

Are you sure that you and Auro agree with the scum read on us? Auro implied he does not scum read us when I asked him about it earlier today.

like to just continue to hammer this point, which do you think is more convenient/easy for scum to fake:

- Finding valid-sounding reasons to vote/wagon votato in his 85 post ISO, asking him questions and spinning his answers the way you want, fending off questions from people about why Votato is at L-1, dealing with the ramifications if he's quicklynched and flips town

vs

-"Dunnstral only has 9 posts his ISO is terrible"

I don't really see either of those as hard to defend from either alignment? A hammer on a wagon at L-1 implies that the person who hammers is the entire reason that the person died, which is obviously not true. Because of that, it would be easy to deflect in my opinion.

I feel like you're purposefully taking a very narrow minded approach to this game.

Also... you're townreading Blatant Scum and yet you are still voting him. Why?

- turducken

[April Ludgate]

How would I look good from it?

And where did I ever say you called him town?

You are blatantly misrepping.

I specifically stated you went to votato after Dunn wagon was picking up.

You also stated when Bird votes start going.

Birds is the current top wagon.

You are actively caught out fabricating and faking stuff

[April Ludgate]

Your entire big wall quote is 100% irrelevant and pointless and does nothing to comment on what actually was said, you just made a defense against stuff that wasn’t even thrown at you because you felt the need to defend yourself.


Lynch Farside

[April Ludgate]

Alright, so votato is a watcher that will heal the "janitor" part of a kill of the person he watches, correct? So, Player Y gets nightkilled and janitored, votato will see Player SCUM visit Y, and Y will flip the next day due to votato's janitor "heal". Correct me if I'm misinterpreting that.

April is implying she can kill and her kill comes attached with a janitor ability, so should be able to clear votato, since it doesn't really make any sense for votato to have a janitor-heal as scum. If they're both scum, this is a 77,108 IQ move, but that's

probably

not the case.

I agree we should lynch someone else if my assumptions above are correct.

~Cosmic

My understanding of it, which I believe to be true based on how we were talking about it in conjunction with my role, is that Votato targets someone, if they are killed/janitored, he will doctor and watch who targeted them, thus that player will not die, and not flip.

I believe this is what you said to an extent as well, which makes sense that Penguin doesn’t seem to be understanding it completely either.

I have a janitored Vig shot, so we were able to prove this during a night phase.

[April Ludgate]

People were talking about “but roleblockers wah wah”

Y’all, if either myself or Votato gets roleblocked in this scenario, that’s a damn win in and of itself.

[April Ludgate]

Also, Farside’s obv scum based on that Birds vote line.

“If Birds could get more votes” or whatever.

Had Farside voted Birds, Birds WOULD be the leading wagon.

Lynch the hell out of this

[April Ludgate]

There is absolutely nothing she is doing except pushing an agenda.

She’s playing a political positioning game.

Lynch the hell out of this

[April Ludgate]

Farside-Dunn for Scum 2020

[Blatant Scum]

JJH, Chemist, Creature, AND Blatant Scum *still* have their votes on us. That's problematic.

Give me a different wagon with which I would be OK and I will vote elsewhere.

[Birds and the Boys]

JJH, Chemist, Creature, AND Blatant Scum *still* have their votes on us. That's problematic.

Give me a different wagon with which I would be OK and I will vote elsewhere.

How about you vote someone you explicitly are scumreading rather than someone you are null on? Why do you need someone else to start the wagon? Start your own wagon.

- turducken

[Calvin ānd Hobbes]

What are you trying to say here, Hobbes? Are you saying that you do not think I truly believe my assertions about Dunnstral?

That's exactly what I'm trying to say, lol. Why do you ask like this? It feels performativecly defensive, melodramatic and awkward as hell as a result.

Here are Dunnstral's most recent completed games that I am aware of

https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=55&t=81613 - Large Normal 225 (town)
https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=55&t=81317 - Large Normal 224 (town)
https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=53&t=81560 - Mini Normal 2111 (town)
https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=150&t=81775 - TM2020 Whiteflag (town)
https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=82018 - Titus v. Alisae (scum)

Sweet, thanks. Let's take a quick look at a very surface level check of his activity level in D1 in these games.

In large Normal 225, he made his first 9 posts over the course of Dec 19 to Dec 27. This is a bit tricky to use since that's during a holiday period, but I'm not seeing especially more engagement in that game then he's given here. Do you think he was more involved in that game?

In large Normal 224, he made his first 9 posts over the course of Nov 13 to Nov 21. Again, roughly a week for 9 posts. Do you think he was more involved in that game?

In Mini Normal 2111, he made his first 9 posts over the course of Dec 12 to Dec 13, and did seem more involved in the early pages. I would agree his engagement there is a bit more involved than here so far.

In TM2020 he was similarly a lot more involved, but that's team Mafia. everyone tries really hard and you have a bunch of teammates backing you up and prodding you to play. I don't think it's fair to compare meta from that game.

In Titus v Alisae, he had his first 9 posts on the first day of the game. Far more involved than his play here so far.

So what we have here is two town games where he similarly 'lurked' early game, one town game where he played a fair amount on the first couple RL days, Team Mafia which I think is a disingenuous/bad comparison, and a scumgame where he actively posted a lot on the first RL day.

How on earth are you saying he feels closer to his scum meta than his town meta, based off of the town games and one scumgame you've linked here?

I also don't like how you listed his most recent games - including games you weren't in - instead of specific games that you personally played with him and were thinking about that influenced your read. At best, this is an entirely worthless meta "case". At worst, it feels you're being disingenuous in an effort to try to substantiate an incredibly weak point ("low activity for Dunn means scum") by using meta where most people won't question you or dig into whether your point makes any sense. And even still, your own hydra buddy already disagreed with similar reasoning earlier.

I want to know whether Fire agrees with you on this.

Well, in that case, you can consider votato hammered. At the time I posted the gif of Voldemort eating the unicorn, I was prepared to hammer votato, but we waited to see if votato would organically engage the game according to what votato promised while getting wagoned. Votato did then follow through with those promises and in general their play does not make much sense coming from scum.

Not at all following what you are saying with this hammer commentary - the hammer never happened so it's a moot point? And I think Votato's play is still awkward and fake - especially the way he didn't understand his role - what specifically doesn't make sense to come from scum?

About your definition of convenient... does that mean if we had started a wagon on Chemist and got him lynched we would still have a convenient vote? I don't understand your approach to this game. By your definition, any vote that is not on a leading wagon is convenient. That is just... I thoroughly disagree with that approach to thinking about the game.

That "by your definition" comment is a strawman. I made no claims about 'any vote not on a leading wagon'. I said Chemist in particular was a convenient vote because he's done nothing of significance and attracted no real attention, in the gamestate at that moment literally nobody cared that you put a vote down there. It was a low-impact, safe, bland vote.

Are you sure that you and Auro agree with the scum read on us? Auro implied he does not scum read us when I asked him about it earlier today.

Haven't synced with Calvin yet today. I was frankly surprised by his walk back earlier but will check in with him later tonight.

I feel like you're purposefully taking a very narrow minded approach to this game.

Let's say I am purposefully am taking a narrow approach here with respect to not liking your Chemist vote. What does that tell you about my alignment, and why?

Also, you specifically asked why I thought a Chemist vote was more convenient than a votato vote, and I answered. Now you're trying to move the argument away to something that has nothing to do with your Chemist vote being a scummy one.

Also... you're townreading Blatant Scum and yet you are still voting him. Why?

- turducken

I haven't checked with him about what to do with our vote yet. Calvin put that vote down.

- Hobbes

[Blatant Scum]

JJH, Chemist, Creature, AND Blatant Scum *still* have their votes on us. That's problematic.

Give me a different wagon with which I would be OK and I will vote elsewhere.

How about you vote someone you explicitly are scumreading rather than someone you are null on? Why do you need someone else to start the wagon? Start your own wagon.

- turducken

VOTE: Hobbes
I am scared that I don't have enough charisma to make my favorite wagon pass.

[Birds and the Boys]

Also, Farside’s obv scum based on that Birds vote line.

“If Birds could get more votes” or whatever.

Had Farside voted Birds, Birds WOULD be the leading wagon.

Lynch the hell out of this

Yeah, I thought that line was pretty fence sitty from her. I'm not sure I want her to be the day 1 lynch though. I was townreading her based on her earlier play.

---

The more I think about votato's role the more confused I get. If he is a Janitor Doctor Watcher... that uh confuses me. If he was just a watcher, he would know who janitored/killed the person. If he was a doctor, that person would never die and the janitor would never go into effect.

votato, can you paraphrase as closely as you can your role?

- turducken

- turducken

[votato]

i dont see how anyone could be townreading BS. I also dont see how half this game can be this inactive. Apparently there is no way to get momentum for a dunnstral wagon though, so VOTE: farside. This game has too many pages to be this stagnant in terms of wagons. im confused.

[Calvin ānd Hobbes]

i dont see how anyone could be townreading BS. I also dont see how half this game can be this inactive. Apparently there is no way to get momentum for a dunnstral wagon though, so VOTE: farside. This game has too many pages to be this stagnant in terms of wagons. im confused.

Votato, why not join BS if you don't see how people are town reading him? That wagon had more votes than farside when you made this vote. Why vote farside instead?

-Hobbes

[Chemist1422]

UNVOTE: birds & boys

not caught up

might be caught up tonight but unsure

[votato]

Also, Farside’s obv scum based on that Birds vote line.

“If Birds could get more votes” or whatever.

Had Farside voted Birds, Birds WOULD be the leading wagon.

Lynch the hell out of this

Yeah, I thought that line was pretty fence sitty from her. I'm not sure I want her to be the day 1 lynch though. I was townreading her based on her earlier play.

---

The more I think about votato's role the more confused I get. If he is a Janitor Doctor Watcher... that uh confuses me. If he was just a watcher, he would know who janitored/killed the person. If he was a doctor, that person would never die and the janitor would never go into effect.

votato, can you paraphrase as closely as you can your role?

- turducken

- turducken

I'm not a janitor. I doctor janitored targets. So if someone were to be killed and janitored, and I visit them, I heal them so they dont flip, and I watch them. My role does two things if two conditions are true. so if target is killed and janitored, target is healed and watched. My action nullifies the janitor action since the target no longer dies. does that help?

[votato]

i dont see how anyone could be townreading BS. I also dont see how half this game can be this inactive. Apparently there is no way to get momentum for a dunnstral wagon though, so VOTE: farside. This game has too many pages to be this stagnant in terms of wagons. im confused.

Votato, why not join BS if you don't see how people are town reading him? That wagon had more votes than farside when you made this vote. Why vote farside instead?

-Hobbes

cuz april asked and I'm just waking up from a nap. maybe once I'm awake I'll realize ive made a terrible mistake. But I'm pretty sure I had my vote on BS for a while with no momentum building earlier this game.

[Calvin ānd Hobbes]

It feels to me like you've been wagon hopping to whoever is attracting general thread attention at the moment (BS, then Dunnstral, then farside). Do you agree with that assessment? Which of the three do you think is most likely to flip scum?

-Hobbes

[votato]

It feels to me like you've been wagon hopping to whoever is attracting general thread attention at the moment (BS, then Dunnstral, then farside). Do you agree with that assessment? Which of the three do you think is most likely to flip scum?

-Hobbes

to some extent youre right. I'm OK with pretty much anything that gets us some game progression. Nothing has happened in this game in what - 30 pages? I do think BS is probably more likely to flip scum, but farside is a new wagon, so maybe theres potential for something to happen there.

C&H why do you think these wagons keep stalling? Why is the game so dead?

[Birds and the Boys]

That's exactly what I'm trying to say, lol. Why do you ask like this? It feels performativecly defensive, melodramatic and awkward as hell as a result.

I wanted to be exactly sure with what you were saying. How is it defensive or melodramatic?

It is just funny to me that you are accusing me of not believing my own push when the last time someone did that they just tunneled me and conf biased every single move I made.

Spoiler:

Because “X is RVSing someone out of the game to avoid associatives

in RVS

” is really unlikely and an argument I’ve literally seen scum make before. It’s like looking for a need to justify your vote when there wasn’t one, and painting a very NAI action as scummy

Because “X is RVSing someone out of the game to avoid associatives

in RVS

” is really unlikely and an argument I’ve literally seen scum make before. It’s like looking for a need to justify your vote when there wasn’t one, and painting a very NAI action as scummy

Ok. Why would I as scum want to substantiate an RVS vote? Why wouldn’t I just say RVS?

This is just WIFOM thinking

Why would town!you want to substantiate an RVS vote

I am getting that vibe from your posting right now, Hobbes. You are focusing solely on our pushes against Chemist and Dunnstral as convenient rather than getting a secured lynch on the wagon de jour. You're ignoring the part where we claimed miller, claimed confused, fake scumclaimed. And in general, you're really just ignoring everything else about our play other than the pushes on Chemist and Dunnstral.

You really must want us to be scum.
At this point, Auro should know I am town and if he doesn't that might well be a scumclaim from your slot.

By the way, I was right about the "there's no way that thought ever comes from town" post I made in that game.

I also don't like how you listed his most recent games - including games you weren't in - instead of specific games that you personally played with him and were thinking about that influenced your read. At best, this is an entirely worthless meta "case".

It is quite possibly just a terrible meta case. In a few days/weeks, we can revisit this. I may be confbiasing on Dunnstral from an ultra recent game, but etc.

And just because the name "gobbledygook" doesn't appear in the playerlist doesn't mean gobbledygook the person was not in that game.

Not at all following what you are saying with this hammer commentary - the hammer never happened so it's a moot point? And I think Votato's play is still awkward and fake - especially the way he didn't understand his role - what specifically doesn't make sense to come from scum?

I was being smarmy with the hammer comment. I was pointing out that I was prepared to hammer votato (as evidenced by the unicorn eating gif because votato has a unicorn avatar), but decided against it to see if votato would do anything given a new leash on life.

I think that if I am scum placed at L-1 for multiple days I....
- do not antagonize town by refusing to claim
- do not claim a confusing role

Instead, I would probably claim right away something that would incentivize the town to keep me around. Like Novice Tracker or something to that effect.

That "by your definition" comment is a strawman. I made no claims about 'any vote not on a leading wagon'. I said Chemist in particular was a convenient vote because he's done nothing of significance and attracted no real attention, in the gamestate at that moment literally nobody cared that you put a vote down there. It was a low-impact, safe, bland vote.

It is not a strawman. Your opinion on what is convenient is terrible.
If votato is scum, I will give you that the Chemist and Dunnstral votes are bad. But if votato is town, I am curious to see how you would view those votes at that time.

Let's say I am purposefully am taking a narrow approach here with respect to not liking your Chemist vote. What does that tell you about my alignment, and why?

Also, you specifically asked why I thought a Chemist vote was more convenient than a votato vote, and I answered. Now you're trying to move the argument away to something that has nothing to do with your Chemist vote being a scummy one.

If you are taking a narrow minded approach, I would say it means you are more likely scum.

I don't understand what you mean by moving the conversation away from that? I don't only want to talk about your opinion on the Chemist vote. I think you narrowly focusing only on the Chemist and Dunnstral vote is actually, in an ironic sort of way, being convenient. You only want to talk about what justifies your scum read of us, but ignore the rest of our play that makes very little sense coming from scum.

Why do you feel the need to check in with Auro to make sure where your vote goes?

- turducken

[Birds and the Boys]

Also, Farside’s obv scum based on that Birds vote line.

“If Birds could get more votes” or whatever.

Had Farside voted Birds, Birds WOULD be the leading wagon.

Lynch the hell out of this

Yeah, I thought that line was pretty fence sitty from her. I'm not sure I want her to be the day 1 lynch though. I was townreading her based on her earlier play.

---

The more I think about votato's role the more confused I get. If he is a Janitor Doctor Watcher... that uh confuses me. If he was just a watcher, he would know who janitored/killed the person. If he was a doctor, that person would never die and the janitor would never go into effect.

votato, can you paraphrase as closely as you can your role?

- turducken

- turducken

I'm not a janitor. I doctor janitored targets. So if someone were to be killed and janitored, and I visit them, I heal them so they dont flip, and I watch them. My role does two things if two conditions are true. so if target is killed and janitored, target is healed and watched. My action nullifies the janitor action since the target no longer dies. does that help?

Ok, so if your target is only targeted by a janitor action (lel) but not killed, your ability would just fail entirely? If your target was only targeted by a kill, but not a janitored scum kill, your action would fail entirely?

- turducken

[Birds and the Boys]

Hobbes, it is quite possible that my vote and case against Dunnstral is terrible. I realize that. I just think that your scum case against us is independently terrible and I am trying to see if it comes from scum or not.

- turducken