SIR Disease Mafia - Game Over!

[Auro]

Do we actually know this to be the case?

The idea has been floated a few times by a few different people but I thought that was all setup speculation.

I strongly believe so.

Infected players should have the ability to be cured, since if the only counter is preventative there's no real incentive to want to lynch them.

And if infected players can be cured, they can't know who scum is when they are infected.

[mastina]

but it's still really weird though. Like, a simple "my role pm says...." would have been sufficient and made a ton more sense than "my original pm"

No, because 'my role pm says' is nonspecific. It is something that could be from any PM from the mod in relation to the role PM. To specific it is the original, you need to then either say 'original' or 'initial', for context that, yes, I am saying that in the initial role PM, NOT a followthrough role PM, the interaction is specified.

If you were to say 'my role PM says that this happens', I would have no clue if you're referring to something from your initial role PM, or if you were referring to a detail of your role PM that was laid out by the mod after clarification was in order. If you were to say 'my original/initial role PM says that this happens', it would be unambiguous that you were referring to the original/initial role PM, rather than a followthrough clarification PM.

That is to say, the very defense you used for ETL applies for Quick.

but my interpretation of quick is that this isnt the same as etls thing.

And just as I did with ETL I disagree with you on Quick.

Also the whole reason for pushing Blair kinda seems lie garbage? Like, Blair as a modifier that makes her die if she targets scum. OFC your pm will be different if you role pm.

Not entirely as different as it'd seem, since my role also deals in death with half of it. (Not the other half, but yes, half does deal with death. I could elaborate on this, but I shouldn't, obviously. Even this is a bit much to divulge and the main reason I'm doing so is only because with the likes of Almost50 positing it I figured that the jig was up and people had deduced it anyway. But while confirming what they basically already knew is probably harmless, specifying the exact nature of it is probably not a good idea.)

That having been said.

I will admit; a large portion of my hop onto Blair was specifically to push and prod Blair. I wanted to do so more heavily, until I was satisfied--and I'm not exactly satisfied. I still feel like there's flaws in Blair's claim, and Blair's been in the suspect pool for basically the entire game for good reason and Blair's content has not been enough to make me objectively think that assessment was inaccurate.

Objectively.
Objectively, I don't have any reason to clear Blair; I don't have any reason to feel satisfied; I don't have any objective reason for thinking Blair looks better now than when I cast the vote.
Objectively.

Subjectively, though. The vote has felt wrong since almost the minute I cast it. When I cast it, in a kneejerk reaction to the claim, being a kneejerk reaction, obviously it felt right to do in the moment but literally every bone in my body since then has been crying out "this is a bad vote and you should feel bad for it". Like I said. Objectively, I can't explain that. Objectively, there isn't any reason it's a bad vote. Objectively, I can't find a flaw in the vote. Objectively, it seems like there is reasonable logic backing me.

But subjectively everything about it feels wrong. Strong, overwhelming gut, 'this is wrong', so.
I'll trust my instincts here over my logic and go here:
VOTE: Jake.

Interestingly enough. Vice-versa applies to Aristophanes. Subjectively I still very strongly feel he's scum, but objectively I have doubts based on what he is doing. Push come to shove, I'd trust my gut over my logic here and would vote Ari again from it, but the

presence

of objective doubts is why my vote's going to Jake rather than Ari.

[OkaPoka]

a jake lynch is welcome, but i think ive forced my hand too much this game and ill let town decide if they prefer hoctac, ill be here to hammer

[mastina]

@Mastina: Recap on TChill and Nahdia town?

I would love to give details beyond a quoted post, but right now, all I can muster is to quote the post.

Quick has been overwhelmingly acting as I would expect him to if he were town, from my memory of him as a player. Everything he does just radiates the aura of being town, and his progression in reads displays a nuance I wouldn't expect him to be able to display as scum. He has reads and reasons that show a trajectory of thought to them that, moonlogicky as they can be, have a reasonability to them that show what appears to be actual, genuine thought in them, in a way that I don't think he can fake as scum.

The doubt comes from a combination of not having seen him play in a long time, not being all to familiar with him now, not having perfect memory of him, others having displayed suspicion on him and many of said players suspecting him also being townreads and me wanting to trust their assessments of him, and that it's not utterly impossible for a scum player to play the way he has.

He is my strongest non-locktown read because while those aforementioned doubts are strong enough to keep him from being in the locktown tier, I feel like they are more in the realm of paranoia than reasonable doubt.


Hoctac is also equally as town to Quick, due to a similar presence. Hoctac's posts contain a unique mixture of shitposting and gamesolving in a way that is incredibly hard to balance as scum, and I can trace where Hoctac's more serious gamesolving posts come from as well as see why Hoctac's less serious posts are being made. Overwhelmingly, Hoctac radiates the aura of a town player who is at ease in this game, and I struggle to see how scum could do what Hoctac has done so fluently and naturally.

The doubt here comes from utter unfamiliarity with Hoctac as a player. I have no clue what Hoctac is like as town and scum, no frame of reference for whether this is normal from him as any alignment, no real idea of whether Hoctac is town or scum by meta. (Plus, multiple slots being suspicious of him and me wanting to trust that they're onto something with said suspicion, and him being a borderline-lurker.) I will say that, disregarding meta, Hoctac would be one of my strongest townreads this game, and it is only this lack of familiarity with meta keeping Hoctac from being locktown.

Given that, that suspicion is firmly in the realms of mostly-paranoia.


Elements might've initially struck my scumdar, but later Elements posting greatly improved this read, because it actually looked like what I expect from Elements when he is town: radiating the aura of mislynch bait, but with content that shows a town mindset to it rather than a scum one. This was enough for a reasonably strong read.

Nahdia since then has been largely net-neutral to that read, neither strengthening it nor really weakening it, doing pretty much nothing to the slot, outside of paranoia of "what if I was wrong?" due to Nahdia not being as gamesolvey as I would like. So maybe, maybe a bit weaker than when the slot was Elements, but if so, due to feelings that are more borne from paranoia than anything else. The doubts I get from Nahdia don't actually feel like they're alignment indicative, so much as it is I am probably doubting Nahdia for being...well, Nahdia. So given that the doubts probably spurn from paranoia rather than reasonable doubts, the townread remains fairly strong.


Saudade is where he is at for good reason. This entire tier, him, the farside slot, FL (he's listed below in a tier but he's also among the conflicted reads), and Tchill, are precisely that; Of all the reads in the game, these four are the three I am most back-and-forth on.


Tchill's too low on the list as posted above, since he should be above both farside/Turkey and Saudade. By content and by meta, he'd be a townread because I've liked what I've seen and from what I know of his meta this looks to be him as town since it doesn't seem to match what I know of his scumgame. He's similar in Quick in how he's someone that is producing thoughts that, while I may not agree with, I understand where they come from and can trace the thought of, and is incredibly active, and has a meta that I have some awareness of but not perfect awareness of.

It is that lack of perfect awareness, similarly to Quick, where the doubt on the townread comes from. He is someone who could be hyper-active scum; of all the slots in the game, if this game were to have a hyperactive scum, he is by FAR the most probable contender. I am not intimately familiar with his meta, and his content is not something scum could never ever produce, and those who scumread him do bring up some valid criticisms of his play, and I want to have faith that they are onto something.

So, the doubts on him don't feel like they're paranoia, but on the other hand, in spite of the doubts feeling reasonable, not feeling like paranoia, they also don't feel right to me, because him being town feels right. He's definitely not the strongest gut-townread I have, but I'd say he's among them, because while I may not have any solid evidence that this is him as town, it

feels

like he's town. I still have twangs of doubt, where I think, "what if he's scum? He could be, given X Y Z", but overall he's more town than scum to me.

I can say that I do need to give an updated readslist, with my reflections thusfar.

The short version is that I'd vote any of Jake, Aristophanes, 5G, and Turkey right now, and that everyone else I have at least some reason to not be voting, but I'd need to compile another readslist to get into the full version of this.

[mastina]

Oh I left Hoctac in that list deliberately but forgot to include in the post above why; I meant to, in a tangent, point out that I am well aware of the wagon on him and exactly why I will not join it--not even at deadline. I'd rather no-lynch than lynch Hoctac.

[mastina]

(The inclusion of Quick is there, 1: as a reminder to the remnants of that wagon why I won't vote for him not even at deadline, and 2: because it is pertinent to the Tchill-is-town reasoning because many of the reasons I have for Quick being town are also reasons I have for Tchill being town thus necessitating the inclusion of Quick for the full defense of Tchill.)

[mastina]

Mastina would never infect me.

Not true. I would probably not have you as my #1-guaranteed-choice for infection. I would almost certainly have you in my top-5 choices for infection (depending on who scumbuddies were, possibly moving higher).

To put it simply, the players I'd be most likely to infect would be {0. ETL but she died D1 so couldn't be the N1 infect, 1. Turkey/farside either holder of the slot as players who're ridiculously good as town that are also still damn good as scum, 2. Miss Lynch but not OkaPoka for the same reasons as Turkey/farside, 2.5 Vecna but not TSE for the same reasons as Miss Lynch/Oka, 3.5 Almost50, 4.5 FL}.

Those six players would be my top infections.
ETL was lynched, wouldn't be here.
Vecna was replaced at the beginning of N1, and since I wouldn't infect TSE and had ample time to change any target if I were to have targeted Vecna, it wouldn't be there.

Which means that N1 my choices of infection would be {Turkey, Miss Lynch, Almost50, Flavor Leaf}. So. You make top four converts here definitively.

Granted. Honestly, being honest. You probably would be either third or fourth on that, because Turkey > Miss Lynch > you/Almost50 to have infected, with you being about equal to Almost50 in value as an infected. So you probably wouldn't be an N1 infect. Not unless I was scum with both Turkey and Miss Lynch. But saying I'd

never

infect you? Nah. I absolutely would, in the right circumstance. In this specific game, with this specific playerlist, on night one? While you make the top four, sure, yeah, probably someone else. But in general? I could and would.

Obviously not that relevant though given that I am neither groupscum nor currently infected, so. I digress.

[mastina]

Fucking LOL
Was that a slip Hoctac?? I'll hold my vote because I see a bunch and don't want to accidentally hammer XD XD

Doubts about Ari being scum, for the record, are absolutely

not

based on posts like this which is the type of post which reaffirms the gut-scumread I hold on the slot, by the way.

[Auro]

so I don't make the cut for infection targets huh? Interesting

[OkaPoka]

people are missing like a huge factor of how scum would choose their infection just saying

not going to out why because its antitown to do so but like speculating about this face up doesn't work when the game is mostly face down

[mastina]

If she's scum, I think it's far more likely that she planted that language in there she she could argue that it wasn't a slip and is angry that she's getting pushed.

I suggest you look up Occam's Razor, as your arguments clearly lack an application of it.

I mean going from "fuck u nero" to "u r trying to go out of your way!" is just an overreaction and the later is just a mound of bullshit and kinda discrety.

It's not discredity; it is the objective truth, and your iso is proof of that.

Not once have you made a single post with me in anything other than a negative light. Not once.

Your arguments when doing so are, often, repeatedly, refuted--not just by me, but by many many many many other players who point out the flaws in your logic and your arguments.

And yet every single time, you continue to push me in that negative light and invent new reasons to do so.

That's not discrediting you. That's an objective truth of your slot's treatment of mine. It's literally there in your iso, for you to see if you bothered but of COURSE you won't because you don't want to fucking admit that yes I am right that yes you ARE going out of your way to paint me in negative light.

I offered you the chance to feel free to prove me wrong, demonstrating exactly how you could--but you didn't take me up on that offer because deep down you fucking know I'm right.

[mastina]

...are jesters possible in this game?

Infected pretty much ARE jesters. They advance the scum wincon by being lynched, because it keeps the original scum alive allowing them to infect more players, AND it prevents the town from curing infected players (which we are assuming is a mechanic because there's probably a logical reason why scum can kill infected players, i.e., a mechanic where the infected wouldn't necessarily stay infected).

So, if you see jestery play--that would be the obvious answer. As either Infected or scum-faking-being-Infected. (Notably, this is my opinion of Jake. I don't think Jake is town here right now; he's either Infected or he's scum that wants us to think he's infected. Without a way of clearly differentiating between the two, he's a fairly safe lynch. The chance of lynching scum makes the lynch worth it even if he does end up just being Infected and there's little drawback to it. If he is Infected, obviously, a scum lynch would be better, but if he's scum faking being Infected, lynching him > lynching town and just about any other lynch would be on town.)

[mastina]

...are jesters possible in this game?

Infected pretty much ARE jesters. They advance the scum wincon by being lynched, because it keeps the original scum alive allowing them to infect more players, AND it prevents the town from curing infected players (which we are assuming is a mechanic because there's probably a logical reason why scum can kill infected players, i.e., a mechanic where the infected wouldn't necessarily stay infected).

So, if you see jestery play--that would be the obvious answer. As either Infected or scum-faking-being-Infected. (Notably, this is my opinion of Jake. I don't think Jake is town here right now; he's either Infected or he's scum that wants us to think he's infected. Without a way of clearly differentiating between the two, he's a fairly safe lynch. The chance of lynching scum makes the lynch worth it even if he does end up just being Infected and there's little drawback to it. If he is Infected, obviously, a scum lynch would be better, but if he's scum faking being Infected, lynching him > lynching town and just about any other lynch would be on town.)

Basically, infected would be half-jester, half-traitor, in how their role would work. They are moderator-obligated to try and impede the town and help the scum, without knowing who the scum are. They know that they, themselves, are not the original scum, so lynching themselves is not lynching the original scum.)

[mastina]

Mastina produced significant content today, no? That should point to her being uninfected. The "original PM" thing is funny.

Correct. Not as much as I want to, not as much as is ideal--I still have a tab open for page 165 because while I read all of the content from that area of the game, there's still content from around that time that I wanted to respond to/point out which I haven't had the chance to do and I'm not sure I'll get around to it.

But I am still doing the best I can, just about every single day. I can't play perfectly here, not even 'perfectly given that I am mastina', as in, as good as I can play given who I am, in perfect-humanity-isn't-perfect fashion. I can't play at that level. But I'm still trying to get as close to that level as is currently possible. (Would say humanly possible, but the level I am striving for

is

humanly possible, just not CURRENTLY possible.)

but in response to wagon he is just kinda trolling and doesn't really care which i mean yeah

Which is a fairly strong indicator that Hoctac is town because, uh. Y'know. Only three original groupscum, scum need every single one of their members alive for as long as is humanly possible, and beyond that:
Who is defending Hoctac right now in a way that is plausibly a scumbuddy? I am, sure! But besides the fact that I am town, there's also generally a lack of Hoctac defense and near-universal support for Hoctac's death.

So you'd need to posit either the scum are perfectly okay with Hoctac's death and are bussing with Hoctac making zero effort to defend himself because he wants to die in spite of it losing 1/3 of the scumteam's original members' manpower when they need every member for as long as is humanly possible...

...Or, that scum are perfectly okay with Hoctac's death because Hoctac isn't scum, and Hoctac is okay with dieing because of not being scum.

The latter is far simpler than the former.

[mastina]

the slip is being that infected would die start of next night? i mean does any of the info we know lead to that conclusion?

For the record: I very very very sincerely doubt that infected would automatically die at the start of the next night--there's multiple reasons for this, my role among them.

As such, the supposed 'slip', if it were a slip at all, would actually be a townslip, not a scumslip, because scum would know the correct mechanic involving infection and not make the mistake of thinking infected automatically die at the start of the next night.

[mastina]

I don’t think both

you

and

Aristophanes

are Town.
I also don’t think both

Hoctac

and

Jake

are Town.

It should be fairly obvious which in both of those duos I think is town and scum.

Care to guess?

[mastina]

Mastina, are you accusing Nero of being scum? If you are not, then what is the purpose of this exchange?

I didn't respond to this because ironically enough: I didn't see the point of making it an exchange. It didn't seem like a question that'd have a productive answer and still doesn't. The answer though; Nero is not scum, neither infected nor original scum. The purpose is not something I can put to words.

[mastina]

so I don't make the cut for infection targets huh? Interesting

I forgot you in the list.
Yes, you make it, for the same reason farside/Turkey/Miss Lynch would.

With luck though we won't have to deal with paranoia of you being infected tho.

[Jake The Wolfie]

Mastina prob

IS

infected. That whole "your going out of your way to scumread me and get me scum read" is just so whiney. She'd also make a ton of sense to be infected n1. Sorry, FL.

Sure, go ahead and believe that if you want in spite of me having laid out exactly what I would do when infected. Makes perfect sense for me to have not changed at all between D1 and D2 in spite of the alignment change and me having explicitly told you precisely what I'd do if I were infected.

You are just saying words related to what you'd do if you were infected. We have nobway of knowing whether you're lying as infected/scum, telling the truth as town, or something else as a 3rd party

[Jake The Wolfie]

Mastina prob

IS

infected. That whole "your going out of your way to scumread me and get me scum read" is just so whiney.


She'd also make a ton of sense to be infected n1. Sorry, FL.

I feel this is what I said.

I’m Never Night 1 infected here.

I would infect you.

[Jake The Wolfie]

...are jesters possible in this game?

Infected pretty much ARE jesters. They advance the scum wincon by being lynched, because it keeps the original scum alive allowing them to infect more players, AND it prevents the town from curing infected players (which we are assuming is a mechanic because there's probably a logical reason why scum can kill infected players, i.e., a mechanic where the infected wouldn't necessarily stay infected).

So, if you see jestery play--that would be the obvious answer. As either Infected or scum-faking-being-Infected. (Notably, this is my opinion of Jake. I don't think Jake is town here right now; he's either Infected or he's scum that wants us to think he's infected. Without a way of clearly differentiating between the two, he's a fairly safe lynch. The chance of lynching scum makes the lynch worth it even if he does end up just being Infected and there's little drawback to it. If he is Infected, obviously, a scum lynch would be better, but if he's scum faking being Infected, lynching him > lynching town and just about any other lynch would be on town.)

Well lynching me is wrong 100% of the time because, and you fuckers better not twist my god damn words, my starting role PM was Town-Aligned.

[Jake The Wolfie]

Also VOTE: Hoctac for self-pres

[Aristophanes]

Fucking LOL
Was that a slip Hoctac?? I'll hold my vote because I see a bunch and don't want to accidentally hammer XD XD

Doubts about Ari being scum, for the record, are absolutely

not

based on posts like this which is the type of post which reaffirms the gut-scumread I hold on the slot, by the way.

So mastina, you're going to absolutely love this tidbit!

I wrote that post, and before I clicked "submit" I thought to myself "this is exactly the type of post mastina is going to scumread me for."

I posted it anyway.

Take that as you may. It probably tells you nothing.

[Auro]

But what does it tell YOU about Mastina, Ari

[Auro]

I forgot you in the list.
Yes, you make it, for the same reason farside/Turkey/Miss Lynch would.

Haha, I thought you found my scumgame too easy to fish out.