Mini Normal 2143 (Game over)

[CooLDoG]

I forgot about this. I just missed the day start, then had my brother's wedding. 26 page catch-up coming. Might have to do it in parts. Gonna grab a coffee right now. Big sorry guys. Bug fucking sorry.

[CooLDoG]

RVS brings out the worst in us.

VOTE: NorwegianboyEE

Votes to bandwagon at start.

VOTE: Firebringer L-2. I don't like this guy though, bring him up boys.

Not L-2. Excuse to try and get lynch. Possibly trying to angle for fire to claim without knowing the votes.

OMGUS, VOTE: NoPowerOverMe

omgus vote. After he correctly pointed out it was not l-2/

vote: Mohab500

Blurry face is pretty scummy so far.

blurryface

blurry has not posted.

That's such a weird way of looking at it: I am proposing we lynch him in case we have no other reads, I'd rather mislynch a Jester than deal with a headache claiming to be a Jester the entire game, especially if we have no better leads. But I am not adverse to lynching someone else if we have to, I guess.

PAGE TWO COMPROMISE LYNCH? WTF?

I actually didn't know that at first, but I still want to lynch you on principle. VOTE: Quick

crazy vote switching so early.

Don't trust in the rules, or the moderator, or the other players. Trust in yourself, because that's all that matters. Just because the rules say a Jester can't be in the game, doesn't mean a Jester isn't in the game. The meaning of reality can quickly change based on your own perceptions of right and wrong.

DUDE, IT IS A NORMAL GAME. WE SIGNED UP BECAUSE WE DON'T WANT A BASTARD SET-UP. This must be trolling. Scummy as hell imho.

----- Need to stop tving mohab. -----

Hey Mohab im town leaning you too what are you going to do about that huh?!

Why are you talking about twon reads on page 3. Defending people like this is scummy, and at the very least anti-town. There is no reason to defend someone this early. Only in late game does it make sense for town to waste energy defending each other.

-town equity on Mohab for taking advantage of a page 1 joke jester claim and egging a lynch on Quick. (They thought the claim was actually serious.)

Great point. Either he thinks it is real, or he doesn't. If he thinks it isn't real, it shouldn't matter as an obvious joke. If he does think it is true, then he is playing against win-con.

So ergo, if there's a Jester claim the correct action is to lynch them and let them win, however not skip the day.

THIS IS DIRECTLY PLAYING AGAINST A TOWN WIN-CON. Very suspicous to want to lynch a jester claim day one. More likely scenario is scum trying to justify a strange random list.

Lynching negative utility is low-hanging fruit in my opinion

Agreement.

Lynching negative utility is low-hanging fruit in my opinion

Problem with that is that, Jester isnt exactly negative utility it's literally a different win condition, sure they can help town... if they want to, but their win condition encourages them to do things like acting scummy on purpose, spam posting, active lurking or who knows what else to encourage people to lynch them.

Of course a claimed Jester means a Jester willing to work with the town in exchange for being lynched so they can win, so in the end they have to be lynched too anyway and scum gets a free NK at some point.

So no, they arent town.

Either way, voting to lynch the jester claim d1 is saying that you want to lose the game. The counterfactual of scum cliaming jester for the lulz does not make sense. Why would they want to draw negative attention to them. If you actually believe int he jester claim, you are playing against your win-con.

not that this shit matters, this is a normal

Normally I'd agree, but there were some people that believed Jester to be able to be included in a Normal and have done behaviour that can be analysed on that context.

@Mod, is a jester a possible role in this game under your interpretation of the definition of a normal game?

Let's solve this problem right now.

[Sakura Hana]

Cooldog, the answer to that is no, you can find that in the normal game page, the only reason the jester discussion went on it's because it was clear some people believed it was possible and their reactions needed to be examined in that light.

[CooLDoG]

vote: nopoweroverme

can we just get rid of this guy

No justification for vote. And guess what, the scummy guy who wants to lynch jesters follows on in the next post.

RIght now I don't like popop, monhab, and sakura.

Start of page 5.

Idk, i don't have much experience with jesters. And that's precisely why i don't care to strategize about it. First of all, it doesn't really matter because why would a normal game have a jester? Secondly, i'm not experienced with the role so any idea i came up with would most likely suck donkey's butt.

Thank you for being somewhat rational.

I claim vanilla town let's get on with Mohab.

terrible claim. Terrible. Why claim with absolutely no real pressure? Granted, I think that every role would have claimed this is they were to claim here. I just don't get the reasoning behind it. You also have all of the people talking about jesters and quick lynching on your wagon. Not going to get up to speed. Odd to claim here. DOesn't sit with me well.

Because there are other fish to fry.

Even the slightest hint of pressure and you claim? On d1? Very off here.

No idea what just happened and I am not sure how claiming VT came into this whole thing, but if we're lynching NPOM, I am up. Let's go!

VOTE: NPOM L-1.

Lynch this... FUCK!

Agree. This person is fishing for claims hard fucking core.

Of course I don't want to be killed how am I supposed to help the town win?

overly survivalist.

Well I dont know his meta.

PAGE 8 and the M-word comes out. Meta is fucking bullshit and means nothing.

Cool

Scumminess noted.

So I ask you, if I were scum why wouldnt I at least pretend to scumhunt?

Wifom much?

lul what? It is wifom in both cases. That's the game. Scumhunting is townie. Town defending on d1 isn't because there is very little info to go off of. It also blocks others from scum hunting.

What I'm trying to say is that me not scumhunting is NAI.
(And even then people have told me that townhunting is still scumhunting, which i disagree with, but whatever)

Setting up not playing townie here. Essentially you are saying, "it isn't scummy for me to not play townie" which is bizzare. Scum already know who everyone is. Town do not. WHy would you elect to make the town's life harder?

It's not for no reason wifom is generally scummy

error. Wifom simply is. There either is such a situation or there isn't. There is not a legit wifom in this situation, I don't understand what ya'll are talking about.

I've gotten townreads on you and Mohab, i'd say that's far from fencesitting.

Town hunting hurts town in the early days because scum will be inclined to kill the stronger town reads. This leads to less info and harder later days when leads are less clear. Telling everybody essentially "I will not vote for this guy" makes it so that scum can't bandwagon on them, and signals that they should kill that strong read.

And as a bonus, everything i've said about my meta and my personality is something you can research yourself, this isnt the first time I've been pushed for "not scumhunting" and i bet it wont be the last.

ANNNNND this is why meta is shit. Scum play around their town meta and then town play around their town meta. It means nothing. Meta defense on page 10 is also ridiculous. You are essentially claiming, "hay, at the start of the game I always do this. I did this, ergo I am town". If you ever draw scum you are going to do the exact same thing and make this defense. God, I wish I were a double voter.

he pissed me off

could be a fair point given how early it is. Still din't like the vote when it happened.

i probably should have subbed out when porkens joined.
I really don't want to play with him.

w/e i can lynch him i guess. This is not reads based but i think i will continue voting this as long as i am here.

VOTE: Porkens

Odd vote given the fact that pork has only ntoe things that he finds scummy. There are also active players posting non-sense.

[CooLDoG]

Cooldog, the answer to that is no, you can find that in the normal game page, the only reason the jester discussion went on it's because it was clear some people believed it was possible and their reactions needed to be examined in that light.

But why are you entertaining such a degenerate discussion then?

[popopopopopopo]

welcome cooldog, sakura being luna's mean alter ego makes sense. luna was more chill

[popopopopopopo]

im kinda lost and dont have a lot of good reads, im gonna reread and post thoughts probably tonight

[Sakura Hana]

Town hunting hurts town in the early days because scum will be inclined to kill the stronger town reads.

Huh, i actually never looked at it that way.

[Sakura Hana]

ANNNNND this is why meta is shit. Scum play around their town meta and then town play around their town meta. It means nothing. Meta defense on page 10 is also ridiculous. You are essentially claiming, "hay, at the start of the game I always do this. I did this, ergo I am town". If you ever draw scum you are going to do the exact same thing and make this defense. God, I wish I were a double voter.

I'm pretty sure I never said it made me town but that it was NAI for me.

[Sakura Hana]

Cooldog, the answer to that is no, you can find that in the normal game page, the only reason the jester discussion went on it's because it was clear some people believed it was possible and their reactions needed to be examined in that light.

But why are you entertaining such a degenerate discussion then?

As I said, I was figuring out Mohab's (and others) motives on the light of them believing a Jester to be possible.

[CooLDoG]

Norwe I feel like he's playing differently from 2138, but also he's done basically nothing so I'm conflicted.

My god. Only meta reads. No discussion of actual game content. Meta reads are so easy. Anything can be meta. I need a 10 page essay including at least 15 games to be convinced of a meta read this early in the game.

You know im just gonna OMGUS this.
VOTE: Porken
Seems more fun that anything that's happening right now and if Porkens being gone will make FB actually play the game then all the better.

Terrible erratic vote shifting once a wagon starts to fizzle onto the newest wagon that pops. No commitment to the reads that you claim to have.

It's pretty hard to do both WIFOM and OMGUS in the first 24 hours of a game....

Yes. This is exactly what I am thinking. I think it might be worth a vote.

im gonna play this game regardless. i am just never gonna have a legitimate read on porkens.

So im assuming if you get a scumread that's not Porkens you will stop voting him? Or are you planning on policy lynching him.

right now my answer to this "never moving of from porkens" but if i am being honest. I might not stick to porkens forever.

i have a horrible time following through on pushing a person forever when i say "never moving my vote"

what the hell is this? I'm honestly perplexed. In the same breath you say you are going to stick on the wagon, and that you want to hop off after a time. Angling for wagons and for claims. No legitmate scum hunting is going on with fire.

I can talk about it outside of game. Please sakura this isn't worth drudging up.

you have enough info so far to make a legitimate vote, and you are still simply voting for what are essentially rvs reasons. Seems like bad play to me.

Guess we've just got to lynch all of you troublesome players so we can avoid having difficulties reading people.

MORE ANGLING FOR SENSE LYNCHES.

vote:porkens

sakura's point about shading without voting or even FOS is good, and firebringer is probably town.

dsiagree. You only have one vote and it is early. Do you have quotes to back this stuff up. WHy is fire town? I don't see the scum vibes from porkins at this point in time.

i consider myself number one worst player.

you haven't played with me then.

vote:porkens

sakura's point about shading without voting or even FOS is good, and firebringer is probably town.

Why is her point about shading good?

shading people without calling them scummy or voting them does nothing except increase distrust between the town members. the fact that you even said "i never called you scum" after the shading is also very bad.

fair point. I understand the read now.

@Firebringer - Couldn't hyper voting also be scum trying to get a mislynch?

it would have to be newb scum or scum who isn't thinking about how their actions will get their attention. Ur going to have to argue that scum!mohab is not trying to hide his pursuit of just mislynching anyone.

They could just be totally non-serious as Scum, but it takes a read on the player to make that read so I think I agree with your reasoning for now.

Yeah, but it is page 15. There have been prolonged exchanges. The real question is why would town hypervote at this stage. The answer is that there is none. I see opportunistic wagoning during the volatile early stages.

Well, to be honest. I could buy the read on Mohab. Because i've seen their play on a mini like ages ago as town, and it was pretty damn erratic. I don't know if they tend to be more calculating as scum though. Only seen their towngame.

Again, this is why meta is bullshit. You are voting based upon a sample size of 1 with no counter factual evidence for him being scum. Terrible idea to do this as town imho. BUT, I am very, very biased against meta reads. I don't think they are scummy because everybody does them (a strange meta-meta read), but still anti-town.

[CooLDoG]

ANNNNND this is why meta is shit. Scum play around their town meta and then town play around their town meta. It means nothing. Meta defense on page 10 is also ridiculous. You are essentially claiming, "hay, at the start of the game I always do this. I did this, ergo I am town". If you ever draw scum you are going to do the exact same thing and make this defense. God, I wish I were a double voter.

I'm pretty sure I never said it made me town but that it was NAI for me.

looking back this is fair. But it is odd that you are defending yourself based off of meta and not your actual in-game actions in themselves.

[Sakura Hana]

Why does it feel like all the old players hate meta? I get it, a bunch of people do meta wrong, but still it's SOME basis to start your reads.

[Sakura Hana]

ANNNNND this is why meta is shit. Scum play around their town meta and then town play around their town meta. It means nothing. Meta defense on page 10 is also ridiculous. You are essentially claiming, "hay, at the start of the game I always do this. I did this, ergo I am town". If you ever draw scum you are going to do the exact same thing and make this defense. God, I wish I were a double voter.

I'm pretty sure I never said it made me town but that it was NAI for me.

looking back this is fair. But it is odd that you are defending yourself based off of meta and not your actual in-game actions in themselves.

I guess I can see how you'd look at it that way, but these people arent familiar with me and I'm a person that's stubborn and in no interest to change my views based on a scumread, the purpose of my posting was to say "Me not scumhunting is something I've done as town, and ergo i could also do it as scum to fake my townplay" To help them read me rather than to defend myself, in a way where I find it fair if there's something ASIDE from just "not scumhunting" as a reason to scumread me.

[CooLDoG]

why me? besides the fact i am scum

fry me

I prefer smoked pork.

I don't understand this. Isn't calling an action scummy more or less synonymous with calling them probable scum? I can see exceptional cases where this isn't the case but I think in a traditional early game like this, what you're saying doesn't make sense.

I generally agree with this. However, this comes down to a question of "ethics" or "morality" as an analogy. Do we think that one's overall pattern of behavior and mentality are predominant (ethics) or do we think that the sum of their actions makes them scum (morality). I think it is some of both.

CD hasn't been on site for 2 days, could be the person that hasnt confirmed.

For the record I confirmed super, super early. And that is one of the reasons that I forgot about the game. Also my brother's wedding made me forget about it. Again, big sorry for not posting.

Morning again.

Still reading through. I’m usually not quite this inactive but weekends mean kid time.

Tbh, nothing has triggered me. The bickering is amusing reading though, so keep going.

Bad prod-doging with no content for the post. Making excuses instead of explanations.

lets kill the king.

if i kill the king, i become next in line for the throne. even though im not his son.

captain firebringer, the prince of town. Sounds good to me
VOTE: Persivul

Strange vote. Don't undestand. This comes out of nowhere.

I'll do whatever Fire does.

VOTE: Persivul

strange buddy here. Nopower has shown he has independent thought up unto this point.

i touch everything!

but if u have no reads, u doing a random vote right now isn't out of the question. Or am i wrong?

WOWOWOWOW. This is trying to get votes on the board with no reason behind it. It is late enough in the game that actual reads should and can happen.

You’re pressing this point. I’ve explained myself. I’m not required to have town reads yet and I’m not required to justify that either.

True, but you could have just said THAT instead of attacking me. And when I made that post you hadnt said that you didnt like townreading people early.

You guys have collectively spewed 13 odd pages of shit. Suggesting I can get an accurate read in all that mess is optimistic at the least.

Several people here have gotten reads, and even if you're slow at getting reads or think that nothing can be gained from such, that doesnt mean you cant be asked if you have any TRs.

The other guys not posting is also what I’m waiting for. I’d like to see how they engage. They’re kind of critical to the game too.

This is also something that you could've said. Instead of attacking me.

The only reason I don't want to vote for sakura is posts like this. Actively trying to engage with people. There is scum hunting going on with probing for the logic behind certain reads.

sakura, quick, mohab.

3 townreads. Where my scum at?

Let's just tell the scum who to kill tonight why don't we? If fire is scum, there is at least one scum in this list.

Drew-sta's 465 Not a big fan here. It is basically only defending. No effort has yet been put on him catching scum. He has plenty of time to defend himself, but none to actually catch scum it seems.

sakura, r u townreading norwee? should i be?

probing for town reads. This is scummy. Trying to see who won't get wagoned and so he can kill them later. Contemplating a fire vote.

im pretty sure scum me could dance around all but 2 players here.

More meta-self referential posting about your own play. Not interested with scum hunting.

[CooLDoG]

Why does it feel like all the old players hate meta? I get it, a bunch of people do meta wrong, but still it's SOME basis to start your reads.

I hated meta when doing meta reads was meta. It is one of my schticks. I have not gone a game without saying "meta is bullshit". That is the one constant part of my meta.

[CooLDoG]

I like popo's vote on NPOM based on what I know of them as a player and the fact that NPOM DOES actually have some Scum equity IIRC.

If you do not remember why popopopopopopo's vote on NoPowerOverMe makes popopopopopopo "looks to be town," there is no reason and as far as I am concerned, it does not.

Ah, good. You found my reason. Thanks.

I don't understand why quick will not answer a simple question like this.

Quick could be scum...something’s making me hesitate though so it’s not strong

clarify this for me please. Just throwing out "I think x is scummy, but maybe not" helps no one and you might as well submit a blank post.

I'm not sure i want to trust Firebringer anymore. Because their read on Sakura makes no sense. Why are they so obvtown bruh?
VOTE: Firebringer

This is a chainsaw, correct? There were also some strange interactions earlier between norwegian and sakura and monab.

I'm NOT A BIG FAN OF MONAB's read list in 622. Not sure if I just disagree or if there is something going on there. I don't know why asking questions makes one slightly scummy or hard to read. Doesn't that make one town? The drew-sta read is bizzare due to the fact that he doesn't scum hunt. I think there is something strange again, between norwegian and monab and sakura. Can't put my finger on it. But the way that they form a triangle of reading the other one as scum seems off to me for some damn reason. Maybe it is just anime avitars... hmmm....

[CooLDoG]

And I am caught up now.

I could be persuaded to vote for fire, norwegian, sakura or monab. I think I will leave my vote on monab for now. I'ma gonna take a shower, check the game thread, go to the store, check the game thread while eating a late lunch.

Again ,big sorry for not being active. I know being apologetic like this is strange. But I do feel quite bad for not posting It was not my intention at all.

[Sakura Hana]

Considering your catch up brought quite a bit of information that i haven't finished parsing yet, you're forgiven.

[CooLDoG]

Actually my vote on monab doesn't make since sit it will just sit there and doesn't produce activity.

VOTE: NorwegianboyEE

[CooLDoG]

also, the lurker votes are dumb and degenerate. There is scum who has posted that we can actively question. Don't vote the lurker and just vote park there. You are not going to apply any additional pressure.

[Mohab500]

Are you going to spend the entire page complaining about meta, or????

I am just kidding. Anyways, I like how to the point you are, you said some fairly reasonable things (stuff mentioned about Porkens actually kind of opened my eyes to some more alternate ways of reading them). The stuff about why town reading is actually a conspiracy to get scum to kill someone was also kind of interesting. For some reason, you seem to be lacking the ability to understand sarcasm, which, seeing this gamestate up until now and the posts we're getting, means this game isn't the best match for you. Who knows I guess.

Guess to finalize your read, I'll have to... read your meta.

(Incase it wasn't obvious, I am joking, I'll look more thoroughly later, but a minor town lean for now).

[Sakura Hana]

Ah yes, i do remember before in other games playing with people that would refuse to out their townreads, I guess that explains it, I always thought they had something to hide.

[NorwegianboyEE]

Actually my vote on monab doesn't make since sit it will just sit there and doesn't produce activity.

VOTE: NorwegianboyEE

I get your schtic. Hating meta, 'i am a super 2009 old-fashioned player with weird kinks'... yada yada.
But what is this? "It will just sit there, on Mohab." And then you vote me?

[NorwegianboyEE]

Are you suggesting Mohab would be too inactive to respond to votes? Because they immediately disproved that...