Mini Normal 2143 (Game over)

[Fredrick A Campbell]

i seriously eyeroll anytime a boomer tells me "OHH META CAN BE MANIPULATED" like of course u fucking moron. the idea is to finding the nuances the player isn't aware of or has a hard time changing and using that to inform you of the player. Not this revolutionary idea. But boomers can't adjust because they tried using meta once or twice realize "ohh shit people changed I can't use this anymore" and then went "ohh well meta is trash" instead "Ohh this meta is outdated I need to readjusted".

I don't think this is a problem only boomers have.

[NorwegianboyEE]

That’s2 players i hate now. And no, it has nothing to do with OMGUS.

I don't fully understand the reasons. Is it because they don't use meta?

And they tunnel their vote on town because they don't like my playstyle.

I'm not going to scum-read you for your playstyle, but I am finding you very hard to read along with Firebringer and his merry men.

It's ok. It can't be easy for a 17th century man to understand how a person born in the 21th century thinks.

[Fredrick A Campbell]

Considering my personality, it is fairly ironic that my avatar is a man from the 19th century but my mindset is of the 21st century.

[NorwegianboyEE]

@Firebringer
Did i chainsaw?

[Firebringer]

i seriously eyeroll anytime a boomer tells me "OHH META CAN BE MANIPULATED" like of course u fucking moron. the idea is to finding the nuances the player isn't aware of or has a hard time changing and using that to inform you of the player. Not this revolutionary idea. But boomers can't adjust because they tried using meta once or twice realize "ohh shit people changed I can't use this anymore" and then went "ohh well meta is trash" instead "Ohh this meta is outdated I need to readjusted".

I don't think this is a problem only boomers have.

Anyone who shouts meta is trash and talks like that is a boomer for all i am concerned.

Boomer = Anyone who doesn't know how to adapt.

Which is the same as throwing away meta because you failed at once or twice. I am not even one of those who says "meta is god", I prefer using it as a tool of understanding the fundamentals of a player to rule out things I shouldn't consider alignment indicative. Understand the baseline of a player and then when players deviate you can dig deeper.

[Firebringer]

@Firebringer
Did i chainsaw?

unless ur ally is persivul. I don't see how u could have.

[Fredrick A Campbell]

If that's the definition of a boomer, I agree with you. I just don't get annoyed by it.

[NorwegianboyEE]

When people understand that meta can be used in a symbiotic relationship with all other scum hunting tools, only then will we reach true nirvana in this imperfect society.

[Fredrick A Campbell]

Wait, there are people that don't understand that?

[Firebringer]

Wait, there are people that don't understand that?

some people didn't get the memo.

[Firebringer]

how did drew come to the conclusion that sakura was scum

[Fredrick A Campbell]

The spoiler is a thirty to forty-five minute read.

It's a big fat wall. Trump wishes he could build what I built.

Spoiler:

If someone does something scummy on the first page, it's still scummy. Wanting to lynch a claimed jester because we may not find other scum is scummy. Why not just find scum?

I agree with this.

That's such a weird way of looking at it: I am proposing we lynch him in case we have no other reads, I'd rather mislynch a Jester than deal with a headache claiming to be a Jester the entire game, especially if we have no better leads. But I am not adverse to lynching someone else if we have to, I guess.

It's also instaloss coz no one would lynch the Jester and the Jester wouldnt lynch scum.

I disagree jester is still town

Lynching negative utility is low-hanging fruit in my opinion

They are a voting member of the town.

I know it's early but entertaining the Jester discussion is bizarre. 87 is the most strange I've seen in a while too.

Norwegian, thoughts on this Jester talk? What do you think should be done if there is a Jester?

I think jester talk is fine because it can be used to see who's got a scummy mindset or not. But i'm pretty sure it's just a fake claim so i don't personally care much about it. I don't believe this game actually has a jester.

How..? It's the definition of WIFOM.

I am Town reading quick.

I am scum reading Mohab. Scummy is as scummy does.

The views without justification get my attention here.

I claim vanilla town let's get on with Mohab.

This is oddball. VI or something...

Because there are other fish to fry.

And this is actually very silly.

Also I doubt any scum would've fallen for that, specially if at least one of their teammates is paying attention.

Speculating on scum's reaction to a reaction test is WIFOM.

What does it matter anyway? You're giving scum the opportunity to hide from you by describing how they would or wouldn't act? Or you're explaining away what is scum behaviour vs town behaviour? This comment is fishy.

NPOM looks like LHF to me right now.

Why?

If you believe his claim why does that not qualify as LHF for you.

Lynching a claimed townie is not LHF. It's easy NK, but not LHF.

There's WIFOM on what happens if he survives to D2 as well. Maybe then they become LHF, but not D1.

From my PoV, he does look scummy in a town way, that makes people just want to lynch him, but he's not even trying to accomplish any goal, and seems to believe he's found scum in Mohab and isnt convincing anyone either, plus it's weird to claim VT right then and there if he was scum, which makes him look like LHF for me. Because people want to lynch him for it.

You can't look scummy in a town way. You're either town acting suspiciously or not. Secondly, your emphasis on him being LHF is odd. Why are you guarding him?

My hot take is that Sakura, despite being second highest in activity, has not scumhunted at all.

I agree.

Oh hey, that's 2 soft shades already, any more takers?

You're very defensive at the slightest attention on you.

My hot take is that Sakura, despite being second highest in activity, has not scumhunted at all.

How very observant of you.

This is the sort of thing I consider for SvS, FTR.

Why?

This:

Wifom much?

There's WIFOM and there's things that make no sense.
So either I'm scum imitating my town game of townhunting over scumhunting, or I'm town.
No matter how much you ask me to hunt for scum in the "normal" way, That's not how I like to play, if you think that's scummy of me then sure go ahead and lynch me, that wont change how I play because I dont have fun playing that way.

... contradicts this:

Cool

Scumminess noted.

So I ask you, if I were scum why wouldnt I at least pretend to scumhunt?

Can I ask why?

And as a bonus, everything i've said about my meta and my personality is something you can research yourself, this isnt the first time I've been pushed for "not scumhunting" and i bet it wont be the last.

You seem to be doing a very hard job of townreading yourself for others sake. The continued push for people to meta you:

And as a bonus, everything i've said about my meta and my personality is something you can research yourself, this isnt the first time I've been pushed for "not scumhunting" and i bet it wont be the last.

... feels like 'Look! Look at it all! I'm town gais - I promise'. Then you turn around and do this:

You also said this based off a reply norwegian did to a post Quick made towards me:

Deflection. (Partner?)

Partner here seems to imply you think im scum and norwegian is my partner.
Am i wrong in that assumption?

... which is scum hunting.

Past few pages have been lots of bickering between NPOM and Sakura, with firebringer and Fredrick finally joining in. firebringer throws (personal) shade at Porkens and wants us to figure out who's the one person he's townreading, while Fredrick just has a lot of inquisitive questions regarding everyone else's reads (but hasn't actually posted any of his?).

Regarding NPOM and Sakura, the chatter was mostly useless, but I did get a strong feeling it was either TvT or SvT, I think a scum-coordinated argument like that would look a lot more doctored/polished if you get me? Not much else to point out regarding those two, will look in more specifics later and try to give a better read.

Fredrick and firebringers action strike some mild scum vibes here. Regarding Fredrick, their curious nature kind of invites me to think they're scum who wants people to feel they're participating without actually doing anything. firebringer's first few posts and shading at Porkens might just be scum wanting to mislynch with an excuse, though I would probably have to look at the meta's of the players to make more accurate reads, I think.

Tell me why a scum argument would be more coordinated or polished if they don't have daytalk (normal doesn't have DT)... This is a fishy statement to make. It's like... fake scum hunting.

Ok I'll let that go by if you promise to play the game normally with everyone else and just ignore Porkens. It'll be impossible to read you otherwise.

This is a strange interaction.

vote:porkens

sakura's point about shading without voting or even FOS is good, and firebringer is probably town.

I consider this sheeping and without good cause. Sits you in a healthy place for the wagon too.

vote:porkens

sakura's point about shading without voting or even FOS is good, and firebringer is probably town.

Why is her point about shading good?

shading people without calling them scummy or voting them does nothing except increase distrust between the town members. the fact that you even said "i never called you scum" after the shading is also very bad.

... that's, not what he did? I don't even think Porkens threw shade..? He critically analysed two posts that didn't fit together, and then laughed at it after, and then you come in a chainsaw? The claim Porkens made about them being active lurking is true - they are / were. Sakura having to refer to her meta as some sort of justification for her behavior wasn't actually answering the question but deflecting the issue.

Besides, there's nothing wrong with listening to others opinions.

Well, there is. We just haven't seen whether you're doing it for the right or wrong reason yet. It's an ambiguous decision making process which allows you an easy out.

vote:porkens

sakura's point about shading without voting or even FOS is good, and firebringer is probably town.

Why is her point about shading good?

shading people without calling them scummy or voting them does nothing except increase distrust between the town members. the fact that you even said "i never called you scum" after the shading is also very bad.

I don’t buy this. My “very observant” post about Sakura was scum hunting, and it led to useful discussion Through which we could develop our reads. I factually stated that I did not call her scum. That has no bearing on whether I think she or her actions are scummy. I’m not casting about trying to make people look scummy. I am asking direct questions and stating my thoughts in an effort to further the game state.

Your argument seems disingenuous to me.

Agree, it appeared to be a chainsaw.

why me? besides the fact i am scum

Well, that obviously means we are town.

Double reaction all the way....

Yeah, I saw that too. I can't make up my mind on NPOM.

This game does have way too many inactive players right now.

@Drew-Sta
@CooLDoG
@Blurryface3189
@Persivul

So, Looking at the mod's confirmation post, there's 1 player that hasn't confirmed yet.
Persivul is V/LA according to his profile so that could easily be the cause of him not posting. (Although an ego search turns out he's at least posting on his other games, V/LA supposed to end today so I hope we hear from him)
CD hasn't been on site for 2 days, could be the person that hasnt confirmed.
Looking at Blurry's site activity seems to be someone that posts once every blue moon.
Same with Drew.

Looks like we just got some people that just arent active in general. I don't think we can discern alignment from activity alone.

These two posts in tandem appear to be attempts to get attention off currently posting players and into the dark. Which is moving from difficult to lynch players and on to unable to be defended targets.

The decision to move there when neither of these players have formed strong scum reads they've advertised, plus the fact that they seem unwilling to push a wagon, suggests they're more comfortable with moving something on a player that is not posting, as they will struggle to defend themselves and if lynched, it is easy to absolve responsibility of their actions.

But why post once and then not post for several days? You are just asking to be scumread.

You sheep and then scum read but not really form any argument for it. It's proving difficult to defend your actions.

Nor pokes me at 416, then Sakura takes up the lead in 436 and Nor doesn't prod me again. This seems odd. Especially since both were the ones pushing for non-posters as possible suspects. The fact they didn't acknowledge each others posts on that either, plus what I've just said, appears to be distancing.

450 and 452 Nor reengages but doesn't push me at all. Sakura then drops off at 470.

So they either town read me now or don't care about the non-posters? I'm not following the behaviour at all.

i have legitimate strong townread on sakura now.

I'm curious when and why did u get this strong townread of me, I thought you'd have been able to get this way earlier than when you expressed it, but only now u get a legitimate one.

its the fact that i don't think ur trying to manipulate me in anyway. i think and this is just a theory (and u might try it next time ur scum) u would more or less use me as a foundation to get ur placeholder/foot in the game by locking me in for ur read and then maneuver from there. I think ur playing this without that when the easy option of manipulating me exists and I think even if ur going for a more serious game u would still try to manipulate me in some way.

So i wanted to make sure i didn't see u trying to get me to really townlock u.

This gets my attention from both.

Explaining what would 'allow you to be captured' by someone else via meta and then manipulated, is like... some weird buddying or something. I feel like Sakura's 'not going after someone' here if they have decent understanding of their gameplay to me matches with the whole 'look at my meta, I only town hunt' schtick.

To me it's SvT interaction and I'm leaning to Sakura being scum at this point.

They're very intent on knowing where people sit with them, and then get defensive when people push at them.

K maybe i jumped the gun townreading you and i retract it.

Let's talk about that process? For me, the only thing saving NPOM rn is their claim.

So? A person is either town or scum.
If there's scum motive behind their actions then they are scum regardless of what they claimed.
If what they claimed and how is towny then there's no scum motive behind their actions.

That's WIFOM. Of course intent is important. They're either lying or not. The trick is working out which.

What is the Scum motive for claiming VT? After ~reasons~ which I won't mention?

I think this is a little naive, or defending something that can't be defended e.g. I don't think you can defend a VT claim this early in the game. It's either a tactic or the play of a VI. I think this is one of the few times meta helps - is NPOW a VI? Their previous games can be indicative of this.

Out of the active posters, I would say both FB and NPOM have the best shot at being Scum.

I'll do whatever Fire does.

VOTE: Persivul

This makes me want you to eat lunch.

When you had previously said:

I take back my TR on you. I can see what you are saying, but that's not the impression I get from NPOM's play here. He either genuinely doesn't want a NK on him (which I have been guilty of before, honestly) or he is makes a WEIRD ASS PLAY here as Scum.

For now, I believe his claim.

Of course I don't want to be killed how am I supposed to help the town win?

That's the thing... You are low key saying, "No need to kill me because I am VT, look elsewhere" and that implies you think you are good at this game and can solve without being a PR.

Which looks like you forgot you had a townread on your slot, specially considering i called the slot LHF/Lynchbait and you fought me on it.

Gee, this appears to be scumhunting. But I thought you didn't do that...

...
You guys have collectively spewed 13 odd pages of shit. Suggesting I can get an accurate read in all that mess is optimistic at the least.
...

Considering recent events, one man's shit is another man's treasure.

You can fish through my shit all day long mate.

Scumreading a townplayer(Quick)

You seem so, so certain...

For clarity: How do you know Quick is a townplayer?

He seems engaged and trying to gamesolve.

And I just checked. He never even voted for Quick.

Quick could be scum...something’s making me hesitate though so it’s not strong

To me that's a scumread without saying it's a scumread.

Yeah... no.

I'm not sure i want to trust Firebringer anymore. Because their read on Sakura makes no sense. Why are they so obvtown bruh?
VOTE: Firebringer

FB's argument was very clear, actually. Your distrust of it seems fishy. I'm not one to white knight, FB could be scum. But your argument around it seems odd.

It's like you want to get rid of them.

Also i'd like Sakura/Quick to actually explain why they tr FB, because that shit makes little sense to me right now.

quick scumreads me dude.

Not hard enough.

This appears to be a scummy, lazy tactic. You're throwing shit at someone and misrepresenting another players view to push your own.

I consider this a tell.

Also, it's a minor take considering half the game is dead. But all of the wagons seen so far have been god-awful. Can we please get a good and decent one going on FB for the sake of my sanity. Tnx.

Including your own?

I'm not sure i want to trust Firebringer anymore. Because their read on Sakura makes no sense. Why are they so obvtown bruh?
VOTE: Firebringer

its the fact that i don't think ur trying to manipulate me in anyway. i think and this is just a theory (and u might try it next time ur scum) u would more or less use me as a foundation to get ur placeholder/foot in the game by locking me in for ur read and then maneuver from there. I think ur playing this without that when the easy option of manipulating me exists and I think even if ur going for a more serious game u would still try to manipulate me in some way.

I'm considering the fact that you've TR NPOM, Quick and now Sakura. I'm not seeing how this game makes sense if all scum are in lurkers. Are you just trying to pocket most of the active players? And what's this "they would manipulate me if i was scum" BS? How do you know that would be scum!Sakura's play here?

You're too fluffy and pockety compared to our last game FB. There's a pretty big difference.

In Fungi Mafia FB was actually lightly scum hunting, also picking a couple few TR's. Not handing them out like candy. Also, even though he always jokes. It was intertwined with actual solving. Here he just doesn't seem to care. As evidenced by wagoning either for some personal BS reason that has nothing to do with the game, or encouraging a wagon a dude that hasn't even posted FFS.
https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.p ... #p11828723

doesn't seem like a lazy scum norwe push

This makes me second guess my view on norwe, but I also think it's a case of nor pushing to get something started on someone.

fungi mafia cliff notes of Norwee:
--> Sometimes gave some insight to players usually mild mannered. Usually only gave long cases for why he thought a player was town.
--> Doesn't try to take control of game or lead. Perfectly willing to take a back seat.
--> Passiveness

Ur scumcase on me doesn't match this.

Yeah, im comfortable with u in my townreads.

Disagree. This isn't what they're doing here IMHO.

Number 1 and 2 don't correlate with their existing behaviour in this game. I checked fungi, they were town. So what are you actually trying to say here?!

I'll come back to 622.

Also i'd like Sakura/Quick to actually explain why they tr FB, because that shit makes little sense to me right now.

Firebringer is an old friend and knows all my weaknesses and It hasnt felt like he's trying to exploit them, a scum!FB would have

probably

TR me much earlier considering I got into the game from the get go and would've been pretty easy to call me TR due to meta and I would be none the wiser. His explanation on his TR of me matches his play around me and so I figured he's probably town.

You're too fluffy and pockety compared to our last game FB. There's a pretty big difference.

Our last game he was pretty obsessed with me, but, I feel he was MORE fluffy on fungi mafia.

Basically my feeling also comes from the fact that Firebringer is a pretty strong player, he is perfectly capable of playing normally,

but where's the fun in that

, and getting himself townread in the process. Considering he's just being fluffy he's just having fun, and being in an environment of people that arent very familiar with him

to my knowledge

he'd have a much easier time just playing normally and getting townread as scum, than whatever he's doing right now, it feels kind of anti-scum, if you know what i mean.

There's a non zero chance he's playing this way in order to pocket specific people

including me

, and you're free to point and laugh at me if he flips scum, but at this point I don't think he's doing anything to advance any specific agenda.

That's buddying to get them in your pocket.

Oh and talking reads, I do agree that now this is more similar to the town norwegian than the scum norwegian i've seen. So norwegian can go into the town bin too.

You and Nor sit at opposite ends of the spectrum on FB, which IMHO is of interest given the links I've drawn to you both.

I don’t think FB flipping scum would equate Sakura scum based on FB’s play around the slot.

And that right there is an interesting post. Basically absolving Sakura from being mafia if FB flips scum. Why would you do that? How do you have any certainty that is the case?! It's a post of certainty, and I cannot understand how you can be so certain about them.

651/post], [post]653, 660, 664, 666, 683 I'll come back to later as there's a lot to analyse in there for me.

Porkens vote in 696 is odd.

Drew has been lacking too. He came, he left. And everyone forgot im.

Now you touch on me again. And not in the 'sexy Norwegian chick' kind of way.

You seem to like to shift focus at times when focus is on you.

More votes on the pig please.

Why?

Scumreading a townplayer(Quick)

For clarity: How do you know Quick is a townplayer?

He seems engaged and trying to gamesolve.

And I just checked. He never even voted for Quick.

Quick could be scum...something’s making me hesitate though so it’s not strong

To me that's a scumread without saying it's a scumread.

So, NoPowerOverMe, you want(ed) more votes on Porkens because he is/was scumreading Quick, whom you assert is a town player. Is that an accurate representation of your thoughts?

This is accurate, but I think you're floating up the wrong shit show mate.

Porkens appears to be trying to trap people but not sure if that's scum hunting or trying to get townies lynched by their own rope.

Tl:dr - I think Nor, Sakura appear to be scum at this point. I think we need to wait for Farken and Pers to contribute before we can proceed much further.

VOTE: NorwegianboyEE

Pages 28-32 are odd and I need to go review again. CoolDog's entrance changed the games dynamic a bit. I have to sift through what they've posted better as my initial thoughts are it didn't read right in placed and also read very well in others.

[Firebringer]

They're very intent on knowing where people sit with them, and then get defensive when people push at them.

None of this means anything. Plenty of people like to focus on what others reads are on them. For instance i got a read of Norwee based on his read on me.

[NorwegianboyEE]

They're very intent on knowing where people sit with them, and then get defensive when people push at them.

None of this means anything. Plenty of people like to focus on what others reads are on them. For instance i got a read of Norwee based on his read on me.

What's your read on Drew-sta and Corndog?

[Firebringer]

@Drew I read ur whole post and it almost seems liek ur theory on Norwee scum is directly related to Sakura being scum. You made many more points on Sakura being scum than Norwee. So why are u pushing Norwee? Is it because more people willing to lynch Norwee?

[Firebringer]

They're very intent on knowing where people sit with them, and then get defensive when people push at them.

None of this means anything. Plenty of people like to focus on what others reads are on them. For instance i got a read of Norwee based on his read on me.

What's your read on Drew-sta and Corndog?

i have to wait on cooldog till he gets a better footing. His reading comprehension in this game so far is lacking.

Drew is...interesting. I liked how he stood by his earlier position of "i don't have reads" and could have easily given out fake ass reads then and there to placate people and didn't. I think his push on u is kind of stupid when I see more reason for him to push Sakura. Even though I disagree with both of his reads. I could see him being scum but i really like his push against being dominated by anyone right now. I like that kind of attitude.

[Firebringer]

I'm not sure i want to trust Firebringer anymore. Because their read on Sakura makes no sense. Why are they so obvtown bruh?
VOTE: Firebringer

^^ That's a chainsaw. And the posts that follow. So yes, you did do it.

This isn't a chainsaw by any stretch of definition. Unless u think Persivul/Norwee is a team. If u think Norwe/Sakura is a team. Then this is like indirect distancing or something.

reverse chainsaw? Idk. Its not a chainsaw.

[Firebringer]

for those who don't know what a chainsaw is.
chainsaw is when u vote a person who is pushing ur scum teammate.

[Fredrick A Campbell]

Really like how you just clarify things and get everyone up to speed.

[Fredrick A Campbell]

Unfortunately, it still tells me nothing about your alignment.

[Firebringer]

u could always ask me questions

[NorwegianboyEE]

Ohhh i think i finally get it.
So Drew's got it in his head that Sakura is scum, and they view my supposed "defense" of Sakura by attacking FB as a indirect defense of Sakura. Even though i was actually attacking FB because i saw their TR of Sakura as a pocketing attempt. So they either misunderstood or misrepresented my post to suit this narrative. Am i right?

[Firebringer]

Ohhh i think i finally get it.
So Drew's got it in his head that Sakura is scum, and they view my supposed "defense" of Sakura by attacking FB as a indirect defense of Sakura. Even though i was actually attacking FB because i saw their TR of Sakura as a pocketing attempt. So they either misunderstood or misrepresented my post to suit this narrative. Am i right?

Yes.

[Fredrick A Campbell]

u could always ask me questions

That's true. Unfortunately, I have no idea what I could possibly ask that will help me determine your alignment.

[Firebringer]

u could always ask me questions

That's true. Unfortunately, I have no idea what I could possibly ask that will help me determine your alignment.

at least u didn't ask me if i was town. I would have had to say no, otherwise my honesty streak ends.