Mini Normal 2141: The World of Tomorrow [Game over!]

[mavsfan41]

Blair v. Quick is town v town, fight me:

yes, I think there's a certain recklessness, a certain scatteredness on Quick's part here that says town to me.

Whoops, forgot to do this:
VOTE: ready2rock

two threads in play here: blair presents gamma, and gamma presents the alternative, ready2rock. mavsfan decides to go with the latter.

The bottom part here is referring to my vote on R2R and siding with Gamma. At the time of this post, Quick HAD ALSO voted R2R at a later time than me so at this point, there are 3 votes on R2R. Gamma, myself, and Quick in that order. Quick's vote came in 1069. He doesn't move off R2R the rest of the day. This above post happens AFTER that Quick vote (1367) and when R2R had 3 votes. Hellbooks looks past Quick's positioning and SRs me for basically the same thing here. This is too convenient. Hellbooks does state earlier that she is TR'ing Quick.

@Quick: are you and Hellbooks a scum pairing?

[Quick]

Can you explain why you didnt join the Gamma wagon at the point you realized she was a cop (of sorts)? Why did you feel it necessary to push all of it into the open?

I did join the Gamma wagon. I clearly said, "I will side with Blair" but I was hoping there would be more time in the day for me to analyze stuff based on what Gamma was going to say, but then they got hammered. I wasn't the one wanting to end the day prematurely, that was you and to a lesser extent, votato.

[Quick]

@Quick: are you and Hellbooks a scum pairing?

Not at all. Looking at hellbooks content, it seems pretty good and doesn't seem like there is much of an agenda there.

[Quick]

I side with Blair despite my method saying Gamma is Town here. No way Blair fakes that guilty like that as Scum. And if they do, then we just kill Blair and R2R. 2 for 1, would make that trade any time.

Still, let's not rush this...

@VP

[hellbooks]

I like the questions VPB are asking now, so my Poe is reduced to {votato, mavs, hellbooks}.
verynice

interesting theory. Do you think mavs and I are partners? if not, then votato should be scum confirmed to you, don't you think?

The bottom part here is referring to my vote on R2R and siding with Gamma. At the time of this post, Quick HAD ALSO voted R2R at a later time than me so at this point, there are 3 votes on R2R. Gamma, myself, and Quick in that order. Quick's vote came in 1069. He doesn't move off R2R the rest of the day. This above post happens AFTER that Quick vote (1367) and when R2R had 3 votes. Hellbooks looks past Quick's positioning and SRs me for basically the same thing here. This is too convenient. Hellbooks does state earlier that she is TR'ing Quick.

@Quick: are you and Hellbooks a scum pairing?

this isn't a bad point. I think Quick's behavior is town for other reasons. but I agree that his actions regarding Blair's claim were atrocious. and maybe we've been giving him too much space today. I think he could stand to get some pressure, but I think that most of his 1v1s have made him seem like he's coming from a town perspective. I'll also look back at gamma interactions with quick sometime in the near future.
but beyond that, so is this you agreeing that voting R2R instead of Gamma was a suspicious action? also interesting. if that's the case, I wouldn't count that as a point against you, just saying.

[hellbooks]

mavsfan is certainly scum though. I really do think this

[mavsfan41]

@hellbooks: a little I suppose but I think you’re definitely over exaggerating how scummy the R2R vote was at that point. Blair’s case at the time was super random and strange. It was a left turn looking off the wagon for scum. Blair’s case is in 870 and my vote on R2R was shortly afterwards. So if that is scummy, why is that scummy it quick’s isn’t? Quick votes Blair less than 20 posts later then moves to R2R which could be seen as scummier with the premise you have of voting me and your case against me.

Furthermore, if my switch to R2R after the Blair case is reading me as scummy, that means the case as Blair laid out is so town that everyone seeing that would vote Gamma.

Blair’s 870 is Gamma. Here’s what happens afterwards:
I vote R2R in 876
Votato votes Puppy in 880
Quick votes Blair in 893
Quick votes votato in 916
Votato votes R2R in 976
Quick votes Blair again in 1010
Votato and Quick vote midway in 1066 & 1067 respectively
Quick votes R2R in 1069 (the subsequent post after voting midway with the mods VC between)
VP votes Blair in 1068
Votato votes Blair in 1104
Blair reveals a guilty on Gamma

Those are the non-Gamma votes from Blair’s original case to Blair’s guilty on Gamma is revealed. Cherry picking my R2R vote with the argument how I chose R2R over Blair’s case while at the same time everyone but Dunnstral had votes elsewhere (including Quick TWICE on R2R) is BEYOND miss characterization here. This strikes me as a blatant attempt at a mislynch here.

[VP Baltar]

Can you explain why you didnt join the Gamma wagon at the point you realized she was a cop (of sorts)? Why did you feel it necessary to push all of it into the open?

I did join the Gamma wagon. I clearly said, "I will side with Blair" but I was hoping there would be more time in the day for me to analyze stuff based on what Gamma was going to say, but then they got hammered. I wasn't the one wanting to end the day prematurely, that was you and to a lesser extent, votato.

Meh get out of here with that noise. I'll admit my gambit on the vote goofed. I certainly wasn't expecting a simulpost. It was a risk on my part, and it did not pay off.

Perhaps my question wasn't clear because you didn't actually answer it. If you were reading her as a cop, why not try to force the gamma wagon without outing her? It's certainly possible scum picked up on the claim as you say, but it's also possible they didn't. You've been a persuasive force in this game, so why not try to use that and keep her undercover, even if there was a risk of a NK?

[ready2rock]

@mavs Repeating what I said earlier, to me the issue with your vote is not who you voted, but also the timing. a couple posts earlier you were seemingly set on votato and wanted to pressure and sort him. Then suddenly, after someone who we now know as scum presents their case on me, you're willing to completely abandon votato and jump onto a wagon that you say you aren't even convinced of the strength of yet. It doesn't feel like a natural progression.

And again, the reason I feel that Quick is town is that the actions of scum yesterday and the actions of Quick in thread make no sense if Quick is scum.

[Quick]

If you were reading her as a cop, why not try to force the gamma wagon without outing her?

Probably because, like I have said a million times already, Scum was already probably 3-4 steps ahead of me. If I can pick up that Blair is cop and I am normally PR blind (which I am, but I do have a special ability of finding VT) then it's pretty obvious Scum already knew Blair was cop pages and pages ago. I didn't actually do any harm as far as I can see. Besides, what Scum motive is there for outing the cop as Scum?

[Quick]

VOTE: mav

[Quick]

L-1 BTW.

[VP Baltar]

If you were reading her as a cop, why not try to force the gamma wagon without outing her?

Probably because, like I have said a million times already, Scum was already probably 3-4 steps ahead of me. If I can pick up that Blair is cop and I am normally PR blind (which I am, but I do have a special ability of finding VT) then it's pretty obvious Scum already knew Blair was cop pages and pages ago. I didn't actually do any harm as far as I can see. Besides, what Scum motive is there for outing the cop as Scum?

There absolutely is incentive to talk about PRs as scum. It gives a scum team more information to go off to fish them out the more people talk about.

Perhaps you disagree as a town philosophy, but that's generally how I think. The mafia team already has more info, so why give them anymore?

[Quick]

If you were reading her as a cop, why not try to force the gamma wagon without outing her?

Probably because, like I have said a million times already, Scum was already probably 3-4 steps ahead of me. If I can pick up that Blair is cop and I am normally PR blind (which I am, but I do have a special ability of finding VT) then it's pretty obvious Scum already knew Blair was cop pages and pages ago. I didn't actually do any harm as far as I can see. Besides, what Scum motive is there for outing the cop as Scum?

There absolutely is incentive to talk about PRs as scum. It gives a scum team more information to go off to fish them out the more people talk about.

Perhaps you disagree as a town philosophy, but that's generally how I think. The mafia team already has more info, so why give them anymore?

You are the guy obsessing about talking about PRs, not me.

[Quick]

Besides, I'd rather be a lynch candidate at this point so I can destroy Scum in LyLo.

Play carefully Scum, I am very dangerous late game.

[ready2rock]

If you were reading her as a cop, why not try to force the gamma wagon without outing her?

Probably because, like I have said a million times already, Scum was already probably 3-4 steps ahead of me. If I can pick up that Blair is cop and I am normally PR blind (which I am, but I do have a special ability of finding VT) then it's pretty obvious Scum already knew Blair was cop pages and pages ago. I didn't actually do any harm as far as I can see. Besides, what Scum motive is there for outing the cop as Scum?

There absolutely is incentive to talk about PRs as scum. It gives a scum team more information to go off to fish them out the more people talk about.

Perhaps you disagree as a town philosophy, but that's generally how I think. The mafia team already has more info, so why give them anymore?

Perhaps there may be times when that's true, but in this case I very much disagree. At a point when people weren't sure whether or not to trust Blair and the Gamma wagon was kind of keeping stagnant, outing the PR only served to strengthen her case, make people trust her, and get gamma lynched. At that point in the day, there was every incentive to keep that speculation amongst themselves, if they even had any (which, given gamma's weak claim, I'm not even sure they did)

[mavsfan41]

@mavs Repeating what I said earlier, to me the issue with your vote is not who you voted, but also the timing. a couple posts earlier you were seemingly set on votato and wanted to pressure and sort him. Then suddenly, after someone who we now know as scum presents their case on me, you're willing to completely abandon votato and jump onto a wagon that you say you aren't even convinced of the strength of yet. It doesn't feel like a natural progression.

And again, the reason I feel that Quick is town is that the actions of scum yesterday and the actions of Quick in thread make no sense if Quick is scum.

The bottom part, what specifically? There is the possibility of a hellbooks/Puppy scenario. Why do you have Quick as town? What actions are you talking about? He votes among Blair/you/votato all players I believe to be town (one confirmed town). His case against Blair (938,941) fully supports Gamma over Blair. He also votes Blair again in 1010. Then later will out Blair as a PR claiming scum had figured it out before that point. If his intentions are true here, I agree with VP’s 1432. Rather than straight up tell her to claim, if he had figured Blair had a pseudo-guilty, he pushes Blair’s Gamma case without outing her as a PR.

[VP Baltar]

Quick's avoidance of actually explaining why his strategy in that situation is better than what I presented is noted. I haven't said one word about PRs as far as I know, especially pre-Blair claim.

There's also this:

a very small part of me is tempted to say that we should not lynch blair or gammagooey and just let gamma live until n3 so he can shoot blair if he can

but, meh, can't outsmart the counter claims i think

What in the world?

Actually, not a terrible idea because Blair, theoretically, should be dead by D3.

Which doesn't make a lot of sense to me if you believe her claim at that point.

Downside is we don't have a lot to work off of Quick's response to the claim he forced because I messed up.

Perhaps there may be times when that's true, but in this case I very much disagree. At a point when people weren't sure whether or not to trust Blair and the Gamma wagon was kind of keeping stagnant, outing the PR only served to strengthen her case, make people trust her, and get gamma lynched. At that point in the day, there was every incentive to keep that speculation amongst themselves, if they even had any (which, given gamma's weak claim, I'm not even sure they did)

My point is that Quick likely had the influence to move that wagon forward if he suspected there was legitimacy to it -- and he could have done so without forcing a claim. The weakness in this argument is that it's a bit of Monday morning quarterbacking. Perhaps he wouldn't have actually been able to influence that. However, his chosen route certainly is what led to the claim. That much is indisputable. Blair certainly found this suspicious and said as much.

[votato]

intent to hammer.

[VP Baltar]

I am not sold entirely on this Mavs wagon btw. I'd like a little more day

[Quick]

Quick's avoidance of actually explaining why his strategy in that situation is better than what I presented is noted. I haven't said one word about PRs as far as I know, especially pre-Blair claim.

[VP Baltar]

I'd prefer someone unvote Mavs so we can have more time.

[midwaybear]

Besides, I'd rather be a lynch candidate at this point so I can destroy Scum in LyLo.

Play carefully Scum, I am very dangerous late game.

LAMIST boi

[Quick]

Besides, I'd rather be a lynch candidate at this point so I can destroy Scum in LyLo.

Play carefully Scum, I am very dangerous late game.

LAMIST boi

Now I know you are Town. Why are you listening to VP about me? VP has a pretty good shot at being Scum for multiple reasons.

[midwaybear]

i am not, but I wanted to point out how that was LAMIST
and what he said had a point