Mini Normal 2141: The World of Tomorrow [Game over!]

[Quick]

1) fit

2) best interests

Could you unpack what you mean by this and how I am doing/not doing that?

[VP Baltar]

1) fit

2) best interests

Could you unpack what you mean by this and how I am doing/not doing that?

Sure, fit is about who most logically fit as scum with gamma. I can't really eliminate you from that pool given the outing of Blair and the weird agreement with Puppy when they said maybe we shouldn't even lynch Blair or Gamma yesterday. If you had come out hard at gamma immediately because you believed Blair copped him, I'd be like "quick seems very townie for that"

Best interests of the town is about pushing the town toward making the right lynches. Ive outlined already why I don't think you've done that. Do you feel like your play this game has been highly beneficial to town in that sense?

Additionally the role fishing stuff is just bad. Like, you said everyone should mass claim, and even if that were true (it's not), you didn't offer any ideas about how that should play out or the order it should be done to best benefit town. Instead, you just claimed and encouraged others to follow. You don't honestly see that as beneficial to town do you?

[Quick]

1) fit

2) best interests

Could you unpack what you mean by this and how I am doing/not doing that?

Sure, fit is about who most logically fit as scum with gamma. I can't really eliminate you from that pool given the outing of Blair and the weird agreement with Puppy when they said maybe we shouldn't even lynch Blair or Gamma yesterday. If you had come out hard at gamma immediately because you believed Blair copped him, I'd be like "quick seems very townie for that"

Best interests of the town is about pushing the town toward making the right lynches. Ive outlined already why I don't think you've done that. Do you feel like your play this game has been highly beneficial to town in that sense?

Additionally the role fishing stuff is just bad. Like, you said everyone should mass claim, and even if that were true (it's not), you didn't offer any ideas about how that should play out or the order it should be done to best benefit town. Instead, you just claimed and encouraged others to follow. You don't honestly see that as beneficial to town do you?

Why do I claim VT there as Scum?

[midwaybear]

why do you claim VT at all?

[Quick]

why do you claim VT at all?

Because I don't want to wait until LoLo to mass claim because then it just becomes a game of who's claim do you believe more and has nothing to do with Scum hunting at all.

[midwaybear]

why mass claim in the first place?

[Quick]

why mass claim in the first place?

So we can Scum hunt.

In all seriousness.. I am not really sure how many more claims are even out there. We could hold off another day, but waiting until LyLo for mass claim is dangerous af.

Plus, it's pretty much essential that mav claims there as Scum and expecting anything other than something that can't be confirmed is suicide for Scum. Honestly, I would probably have claimed Doc there and seen where that would take me. Doc is almost always a good claim as Scum. But like I have said, I leave the fancy claims to my betters. I just as soon Scum hunt as Scum then try and pull something out of my ass.

It is weird because in retrospect, mav would be way better off claiming VT there as Scum I think. But then that eliminates a ton of WIFOM surrounding their claim and what to make of it and waste literally 2 weeks of your life trying to decide if it's actually viable or not. Fuck that. Ignore claims entirely and just get reads based on play. Anyone who knows the roles well enough and has a bit of time can fabricate a claim that is believable. That said, it takes all the finesse out of the game. You're lying to save your ass. All you have to do is be consistent. Pretty easy actually. That said, I have never been one who has been good at making up claims. I think I claimed Doc once when I replaced into a huge game late in it. Super easy! Just claim Doc! And if Doc doesn't work, you have a really good chance at outing another PR that would contradict the Doc claim. So it's really win/win.

In any case, IDK why votato and hellbooks are so sold on mav's claim being legit. I don't really buy it, but maybe I suck with all this claiming stuff. If it was just me making the decision, mav got put to L-1 with intent for a reason. let's read them based on their play and not based on the WIFOM of whether their claim is legit or not.

BTW, I can buy that the newbies would totally think, "No way they ever claim that as Scum here" but I think, as a general rule, the wackier the claim, the more likely it is to come from Scum.

And I'm still podering that R2R case VP made. Something doesn't feel quite right about it but I would probably have to go back and look. I think I made the comment at one point (possibly D1, not sure) that maybed R2R just has a Scummy meta. Still, their content hasn't been bad and they are still offering new thoughts so my TR on them just gets more solidified.

I will have to ISO hellbooks given I make it past this phase and we are both still alive next Day Phase. I have liked their content, but honestly, them TRing me based on me talking about how I know I grate on people doesn't seem like a LEGITIMATE reason to TR me. I can get it if there is like... politics involved and they just want to manipulate me to be nicer to people and not be a prick, but that's honestly a garbage reason to legit TR someone unless it's based on tone or something like that. Nothing about what I said should really turn heads in their read on me.

Puppy is no where so that slot probably needs pressure next Day Phase. I don't want to see Scum coast to victory. That's why if VP is Scum here, I actually respect his play quite a bit. mav to to some extent because that may not be the easiest fake claim to make. Maybe Puppy is bored with this game? I would like their thoughts sometime soonish. We still have plenty of time to decide who we want to lynch.

My top choice for lynch is mav, followed by VP, followed by a tie between hellbooks and Puppy. That is where I think the last two Scum are. I am not seeing votato!Scum or midway!Scum much at all, but if they fool me here congrats to them.

[Quick]

@Blair: why did you pick Gammagooey to target with your night action? Looking through your ISO day 1, you really only mention not having a read on him late in the day and that’s basically it. This is repeated a couple times but reads to me like an afterthought. Seems like someone you didn’t have near the top of people you would target with a night action.

@Blair: never mind. Thanks

@mav, why did you just nope out of the thread after Blair claimed? Pretty much everyone else made a stance on it one way or another (except maybe Puppy, which is looking rather... ripe about now). Why didn't you use your voice or your vote? What was your plan going into N2?

If anyone doesn't know what I'm talking about there:

Quick says Blair Tunnel with the words being capitalized in post 191, and then the two start going at each other, and quick says the post has a double meaning, and then later he points it out again

Blair v. Quick would be an interesting theory you could put more time into that might be more compelling

...

except that you bring this up after justifying your hammer by appealing to quick and

immediately after

you sheep blair on gamagooey

Something about puppy's catchup is off to me. Like they're pretending not to know about the most recent of events on purpose

ok, i'm all caught up, i didn't see the stuff about roles and claims until the end

not sure there's much i can add, one of blair/gamma is scum, i've been townreading blair most of the game and will probably side that way

@Puppy, Why are you so utterly apathetic here when we caught Scum?

a very small part of me is tempted to say that we should not lynch blair or gammagooey and just let gamma live until n3 so he can shoot blair if he can

but, meh, can't outsmart the counter claims i think

What in the world?

Maybe VP is Town here and was picking up on something... Hmm..

Also you didn't comment on anything I said at all which gives me bad feelings

anything specific you want, let me know

otherwise, there wasn't much in the last page or so that looks answerable. "puppy pretending that he hasn't read the latest stuff" -- yeah, I got killed in another game and had time for this one and started where i left off. it's an understandable reason to sketch me, but it's not really something i can answer, either you believe me or don't /shrug

I was under the impression that you at least slightly scumread me. The way you talk to me feels off, like you're assuming I'm town here. Is anybody else seeing this weirdness?

i have u as null

to my mind all you did was post a couple catch-up posts and then hammer. since the hammer happened while i was offline and was a bad hammer that gives me mixed feelings about trying to read your slot (this is one of the reasons why it was a bad hammer, it could only have introduced this complexity on reading ur slot)

No follow up from Puppy on that. Very bizarre. Why prioritize answering Dunn over VP here?

And VP did this just after:

Someone tell me if traffic analyst is a standard kind of role? I have not played in years and do not know what is considered a "normal" role.

https://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=Normal_Game

So basically anything just not roles that involve elements of chance.

Blair is more believable here and one of them has to go.

VOTE: gamma L-1 I believe

Which is another huge WTF moment. Why put Gamma at L-1 to self hammer when they were RIGHT IN THE MIDDLE of taking looks at Puppy. I do NOT understand dropping that like a hot potato (no pun intended @votato). It makes all three of mav/puppy/VP look SUPER suspect at how this all went down.

I sorta kinda feel like VP is traitor in this game. I had 3p feels early with the softening and all, but it could actually be traitor here. Didn't mention it because it was just gut, but the thought kept recurring so I am bringing it up now to say it's possible VP is traitor here.

Okay, so I think I'm fine with putting mav/Puppy/VP in my Scum pool for the remaining Scum. Read pending on hellbooks, but they honestly seem like they are NOT just skating by.

[mavsfan41]

You can’t POSSIBLY be this anti-town.

VOTE: Quick

[Quick]

You can’t POSSIBLY be this anti-town.

VOTE: Quick

I'm sorry, I have not a clue what you are talking about.

[hellbooks]

In any case, IDK why votato and hellbooks are so sold on mav's claim being legit. I don't really buy it, but maybe I suck with all this claiming stuff. If it was just me making the decision, mav got put to L-1 with intent for a reason. let's read them based on their play and not based on the WIFOM of whether their claim is legit or not.

mavs also (erroneously?) thinking that there is some sort of "fruit checker" also seems like it makes the claim more believable. you're not wrong about wacky claims coming from scum. Again, i'm not fully sold. I might go back and scrutinize

[hellbooks]

I can't shake the feeling that there's a mislynch agenda behind VP Baltar's case
I dont have any thing I can point to for that but, wondering if theres something anyone else has on that.

[VP Baltar]

I can't shake the feeling that there's a mislynch agenda behind VP Baltar's case
I dont have any thing I can point to for that but, wondering if theres something anyone else has on that.

Uh...

[CantHateAPuppy]

apologies for lurking, i have had an unexpectedly busy couple of days

decided to just read through instead of commenting as i read since that didn't please people last time :shrug:

find myself agreeing with votato, actually. i don't like mav's claim. if i had been around i would have hammered it. actually, I can believe the "claim" itself but i don't like the way mavs delivered it and there's something off about it in general. is it possible that there's a mafia fruit vendor?

[Quick]

Oh, it just dawns on me that mav's role only makes sense as a Town role. Like, it's not even neutral.

[CantHateAPuppy]

just looking at the setup overall:

blair was a traffic analyst
npom was a night 4 vig
gamma was a strongman

in that context, we probably don't have that much town power left. the traffic analyst was a glorified cop that would get guilties unti there was just one scum left, unless someone here has neighborizer powers. cop + vig is a lot of power

strongman implies that we have some protective role, but since nobody protected blair it's possible it was a red herring. if that's the case, i could believe in something as useless as "disloyal fruit vendor". at the same time, it doesn't really add anything for the town. and when we basically already had a cop, would we really have a second role that could potentially generate guilties?

the play is really easy, right? if you know you're disloyal, your whole game is about seeing who does or does not get fruit. mav claims he spent time thinking about this and that explains his nightactions, but apparently he forgot all about that when claiming.

no, writing this out, i don't buy it. mav's claim effectively allows him to produce guilties if he plays it right. that doesn't fit with a setup where we already have cop/vig if we also have a doc, and it doesn't fit if we don't have a doc and the scum have a PR that actually doesn't do anything.

[CantHateAPuppy]

i won't deny that looking at his iso the breadcrumbs are there and plausible

[Quick]

apologies for lurking

Okay???

[CantHateAPuppy]

If you were reading her as a cop, why not try to force the gamma wagon without outing her?

Probably because, like I have said a million times already, Scum was already probably 3-4 steps ahead of me. If I can pick up that Blair is cop and I am normally PR blind (which I am, but I do have a special ability of finding VT) then it's pretty obvious Scum already knew Blair was cop pages and pages ago. I didn't actually do any harm as far as I can see. Besides,

what Scum motive is there for outing the cop as Scum?

this post is really bad and i have to really squint to see what you're trying to say with bold

but even then, i don't think scum assumed blair was cop until she claimed, why would they? blair herself couldn't have known she had a guilty because she can't have known if there were neighborizers or masons or not. she could only be 100% sure gamma was guilty when gamma claimed.

[CantHateAPuppy]

apologies for lurking

Okay???

You're welcome!

[CantHateAPuppy]

@mavs Repeating what I said earlier, to me the issue with your vote is not who you voted, but also the timing. a couple posts earlier you were seemingly set on votato and wanted to pressure and sort him. Then suddenly, after someone who we now know as scum presents their case on me, you're willing to completely abandon votato and jump onto a wagon that you say you aren't even convinced of the strength of yet. It doesn't feel like a natural progression.

And again, the reason I feel that Quick is town is that the actions of scum yesterday and the actions of Quick in thread make no sense if Quick is scum.

The bottom part, what specifically? There is the possibility of a hellbooks/Puppy scenario. Why do you have Quick as town? What actions are you talking about? He votes among Blair/you/votato all players I believe to be town (one confirmed town). His case against Blair (938,941) fully supports Gamma over Blair. He also votes Blair again in 1010. Then later will out Blair as a PR claiming scum had figured it out before that point. If his intentions are true here, I agree with VP’s 1432. Rather than straight up tell her to claim, if he had figured Blair had a pseudo-guilty, he pushes Blair’s Gamma case without outing her as a PR.

i hope it isnt a "mean" question to ask about activity

mavs, why did it take you about an hour to claim after votato's intent to hammer, when you were posting after L-1?

Were you waiting for the intent to hammer, or were you busy for some other reason

[VP Baltar]

Alright, off work and going to go back over the last few pages to respond to anything I missed. (and then I'm going to dial back my posting for a hot minute so we can hear from other people who have given fewer opinions today. I'm afraid I've probably contributed to people not posting by jumping up the page count.)

I think it's possible that both myself and mav are town fwiw. Also the association between us is based on me not picking up on a crumb, so while you could argue that my flip gives info on mav, his flip really says nothing about me. I really want to believe that mav is town, but i have a hard time swallowing the claim and the way it was done. And while i would buy a voyeur or watcher, i wouldn't buy a fruit checker

Circling back on this, now that you've had some time to think about the claim, you still think it's fake?

It is important since you said you never talked about PRs in the game and you had.. about yourself.. with a really obvious soft... because you know you are never getting NKed... I think that's all.

I think we are talking about two different things here. When I said talking about PRs, I meant talking about other people's roles. Regardless, I will say I was absolutely not breadcrumbing anything about my role in the posts you mentioned, and you can hold me to that in the future. That being said, if you're interpreting those posts as breadcrumbing, I can see why you think that's a violation of me saying I haven't talked about PRs. I really wasn't though.

Bad faith = painting me solely in a negative light. Hence, it's either confbias or you are Scum because there is zero nuance to your read on me.

I want to revisit this because I think we got in a pretty heated back and forth there. I really don't think I'm trying to act in bad faith toward you, and I'm not trying to cherry pick.

I would say up front that until today, I was strongly in the Quick is town column, and I think that's been fairly clear for most of the game. I think I at least played a moderate role in breaking up you and Blair fighting forever because I believed it was TvT. Hell, I could be completely wrong and you could be town. I'm willing to accept that. That being said, you have to admit that you have done things that have not helped the town here. I mean, I'm not being crazy when I say things like the wagons you've been on or suggesting an early mass claim look suspicious, am I?

You said I don't have a nuanced view, but that's actually what I'm after when I ask you questions like: "please explain to me why outting Blair as cop was a better strategy than trying to push the Gamma lynch and keep her undercover, even if you think scum may have caught on too"

Also, it does seem like if I were you and I was Town I would be trying to lynch votato and not me because honestly, what is votato hanging on to that makes them Town in your eyes? That ofc gets upset when I say things like, "There is one Scum in votato/VP." So you are really painting yourself in a corner either way. If I were you and I was Scum, I would really, honestly, be trying to lynch mav at this point given he is Town. But you are barely looking at mav. What gives? Is mav Town? Based on what? Will you even answer these questions? Time will tell.

While votato has been a bit out there at times, he's also asked good questions this game and has pressed people (including me) in ways that are not making him always popular. I identify with that style of play being town. It's how I play as town for sure. I'd rather ask good questions and take the risk of drawing a wagon, than to play safe. That makes votato more of a town read for me.

As far as why wouldn't I pursue mavs if I was scum...I agree with you. He would make sense to bus if he was my scum buddy, as you say. And if he was town and I was scum, it'd be an easy mislynch. It's certainly not a popular position for me to intervene here on his behalf. I just don't believe it is a good lynch from what I can tell. I've seen mavs trying all game to root out scum, and he claim has sealed him as very likely town for me.

But I find that is way more complicated than scum usually are.

Would you mind offering your comment on this:

This progression from mav is wacky - especially if mav is SvS with Gamma... Not seeing that clear analytical process from mav here... looks more like panic.

...

Your case on Mavs amounts to "I don't believe his claim" and "his voting record isn't great". Well the first part of that is subjective and the second part...well you are one to talk. So if you think that case is a better quality than what I've made against you, that's cool. Eager to see where the rest of the people come down on that comparison.

There's more to it than that, surely!

Regarding mavs logical progression there, you'd have to ask him to explain in detail. I can see more what you're saying now if you're implying the r2r vote by Gamma was a signal that mavs was following. Didn't you also have your vote on r2r after Gamma made his case? Seems like it would be null to you from that perspective...but I see what you're pointing to anyhow.

Regarding the rest of the case on mavs, please give me the cliff notes version you see. I would like to hear it summed up in one place from your perspective.

is there any reason to think puppy is town? He's lurking at a critical moment.

^This i support. I don't know if it's lurking or just falling behind, but I definitely want some more concrete catch up from puppy.

something like

dunnstral, votato, midwaybear
mavs, ready2rock
quick, vp baltar
puppy

in terms of how much scrutiny I think they ought to be given

I actually don't get this list the more I'm thinking about it. You seemed pretty interested in a mavs lynch before and then helped run him up (I think your vote is still there actually), but he is fourth town on your list. You've also said pressure was due on quick, but that I'm trying to mislynch him.

What is your case on puppy being a top priority other than lurking?

why mass claim in the first place?

So we can Scum hunt.

In all seriousness.. I am not really sure how many more claims are even out there. We could hold off another day, but waiting until LyLo for mass claim is dangerous af.

Plus, it's pretty much essential that mav claims there as Scum and expecting anything other than something that can't be confirmed is suicide for Scum. Honestly, I would probably have claimed Doc there and seen where that would take me. Doc is almost always a good claim as Scum. But like I have said, I leave the fancy claims to my betters. I just as soon Scum hunt as Scum then try and pull something out of my ass.

It is weird because in retrospect, mav would be way better off claiming VT there as Scum I think. But then that eliminates a ton of WIFOM surrounding their claim and what to make of it and waste literally 2 weeks of your life trying to decide if it's actually viable or not. Fuck that. Ignore claims entirely and just get reads based on play. Anyone who knows the roles well enough and has a bit of time can fabricate a claim that is believable. That said, it takes all the finesse out of the game. You're lying to save your ass. All you have to do is be consistent. Pretty easy actually. That said, I have never been one who has been good at making up claims. I think I claimed Doc once when I replaced into a huge game late in it. Super easy! Just claim Doc! And if Doc doesn't work, you have a really good chance at outing another PR that would contradict the Doc claim. So it's really win/win.

In any case, IDK why votato and hellbooks are so sold on mav's claim being legit. I don't really buy it, but maybe I suck with all this claiming stuff. If it was just me making the decision, mav got put to L-1 with intent for a reason. let's read them based on their play and not based on the WIFOM of whether their claim is legit or not.

BTW, I can buy that the newbies would totally think, "No way they ever claim that as Scum here" but I think, as a general rule, the wackier the claim, the more likely it is to come from Scum.

And I'm still podering that R2R case VP made. Something doesn't feel quite right about it but I would probably have to go back and look. I think I made the comment at one point (possibly D1, not sure) that maybed R2R just has a Scummy meta. Still, their content hasn't been bad and they are still offering new thoughts so my TR on them just gets more solidified.

I will have to ISO hellbooks given I make it past this phase and we are both still alive next Day Phase. I have liked their content, but honestly, them TRing me based on me talking about how I know I grate on people doesn't seem like a LEGITIMATE reason to TR me. I can get it if there is like... politics involved and they just want to manipulate me to be nicer to people and not be a prick, but that's honestly a garbage reason to legit TR someone unless it's based on tone or something like that. Nothing about what I said should really turn heads in their read on me.

Puppy is no where so that slot probably needs pressure next Day Phase. I don't want to see Scum coast to victory. That's why if VP is Scum here, I actually respect his play quite a bit. mav to to some extent because that may not be the easiest fake claim to make. Maybe Puppy is bored with this game? I would like their thoughts sometime soonish. We still have plenty of time to decide who we want to lynch.

My top choice for lynch is mav, followed by VP, followed by a tie between hellbooks and Puppy. That is where I think the last two Scum are. I am not seeing votato!Scum or midway!Scum much at all, but if they fool me here congrats to them.

See, then you got to go make a post like this that actually reads like genuine town to me.

Which is another huge WTF moment. Why put Gamma at L-1 to self hammer when they were RIGHT IN THE MIDDLE of taking looks at Puppy. I do NOT understand dropping that like a hot potato (no pun intended @votato). It makes all three of mav/puppy/VP look SUPER suspect at how this all went down.

I sorta kinda feel like VP is traitor in this game. I had 3p feels early with the softening and all, but it could actually be traitor here. Didn't mention it because it was just gut, but the thought kept recurring so I am bringing it up now to say it's possible VP is traitor here.

Okay, so I think I'm fine with putting mav/Puppy/VP in my Scum pool for the remaining Scum. Read pending on hellbooks, but they honestly seem like they are NOT just skating by.

I fully believed Blair's claim as real and wanted to quickly put a vote there while I thought Gamma was away and it would be tempting for a fellow scum to start sweating and want to hammer. I had no intention of keeping it there for long if I didn't get a quick response. It was an overly risky play that I hoped could catch a second scum and be HERO level town in my first game back. I got screwed by a simulpost and that's what I get for being too bold. That's not being a traitor, just being an idiot.

mavs also (erroneously?) thinking that there is some sort of "fruit checker" also seems like it makes the claim more believable. you're not wrong about wacky claims coming from scum. Again, i'm not fully sold. I might go back and scrutinize

You really need to take a concrete position on this. Do you believe he is town or not?

[mavsfan41]

@mavs Repeating what I said earlier, to me the issue with your vote is not who you voted, but also the timing. a couple posts earlier you were seemingly set on votato and wanted to pressure and sort him. Then suddenly, after someone who we now know as scum presents their case on me, you're willing to completely abandon votato and jump onto a wagon that you say you aren't even convinced of the strength of yet. It doesn't feel like a natural progression.

And again, the reason I feel that Quick is town is that the actions of scum yesterday and the actions of Quick in thread make no sense if Quick is scum.

The bottom part, what specifically? There is the possibility of a hellbooks/Puppy scenario. Why do you have Quick as town? What actions are you talking about? He votes among Blair/you/votato all players I believe to be town (one confirmed town). His case against Blair (938,941) fully supports Gamma over Blair. He also votes Blair again in 1010. Then later will out Blair as a PR claiming scum had figured it out before that point. If his intentions are true here, I agree with VP’s 1432. Rather than straight up tell her to claim, if he had figured Blair had a pseudo-guilty, he pushes Blair’s Gamma case without outing her as a PR.

i hope it isnt a "mean" question to ask about activity

mavs, why did it take you about an hour to claim after votato's intent to hammer, when you were posting after L-1?

Were you waiting for the intent to hammer, or were you busy for some other reason

So I’m not sure I understand this question.
L-1, whatever. At that point, I believe only you would deliver the likely hammer. VP Baltar hadn’t been SR’ing me and wouldn’t have come out of nowhere and votato at that time I believed to be my complimentary role, so he should have been reading me as confirmed town like I was reading him.

As for why I claimed an hour in real time? Cause that was the next time I saw the thread. From the time I saw the intent to hammer (from votato no less) whose role I didn’t want to out (presumed role) to the time I claimed, that was instantaneous.

[CantHateAPuppy]

going through some dead poster isos again, don't want to clutter the thread with lots of quotes so forgive me for being brief

nauci as the n1 kill still doesn't feel right to me. she had a scumread on mavs and atarashi/dunn at the beginning, not sure if she held those throughout, she seemed to waver a bit. but she put her reads in bold bright colors so scum would have remembered her first reads best.

reading gamma's iso again feels strong like mavs or votato are scum. there's some coaching, gamma works to cushion votato against the case i made, gamma keeps reading mavs as town for no real reason.

[CantHateAPuppy]

L-1, whatever. At that point, I believe only you would deliver the likely hammer. VP Baltar hadn’t been SR’ing me and wouldn’t have come out of nowhere and votato at that time I believed to be my complimentary role, so he should have been reading me as confirmed town like I was reading him.

no see this is the answer i want in an indirect sense

u were waiting for some intent to hammer before claiming, right? ur position is that u saw L-1, thought "no one will hammer now so i don't have to claim now," then later came online, saw votato announce intent to hammer, and decided to claim then?

not claiming this is scum, i just want to get inside the mindset here to fgure out when u claimed and for what reason.