Newbie 2004: Trash Panada Hour. Redux! GAME OVER

[Nauci]

Why would scum white knight? To win an ally and/or to look good when that person flips town. No offense but Freddie doesn't seem to be that helpful of an ally, and multiple players are calling for Votato's head now even BEFORE Freddie flips. So either way it seems like it would be much easier and better for Scum!Votato to let the mislynch happen rather than stick his neck out in the first place. To me Votato starting down this road and finding it difficult to give up is if they're scum together.

That's exactly how I feel about it.

There's no way that Freddie/Tuxedo are scum together, and there's no way that votato is scum while Freddie is town, because he literally tossed a pretty widely town read position to the moon by quadrupling down on defending Freddie, and there's just no way that scum!votato would do that for town!freddie, I don't think even for a strong personal relationship? Those are my hardline premises for any other reads that I'm forming in this game.

[Nauci]

The result of white knighting is that you gain an ally in the person you are defending because they feel like they have someone who they can trust

Why on Earth would Votato throw away all of his crediblity in this game in order to buddy someone that town was imminently about to lynch AND who is a very new player AND half the town was extremely trying to lynch?

It's not the concept of white knighting that we aren't getting, but this specific situation. Surely that's clear to you?

[Nauci]

imo it’s actually the other way around. If scum sees their partner about to be lynched, they probably wouldn’t risk hard defending someone because they would automatically be associated with their partner once their partner flips. Scum would be more likely to see where the general zeitgeist is headed and try to blend in by also turning on their partner.

Hmm I think this is a good point also. Perhaps we can eliminate scum!freddie+scum!votato as well as scum!votato+town!freddie

[Nauci]

While I think a white-knighting Vota would have an easier time (and has been given multiple opportunities) walking away.

To be perfectly honest, I think that votato would have been even more suspicious if they tried to back off after quadrupling down. Like that would have ended in insta-lynch

[Nauci]

Retcon? Did you miss the post from Day 1 where Freddie super hammed it up that they were sheeping me on my meta-read of Brass?

Like, 1057 was so... extra? That I noted it as "is this scum absolving themselves of responsibility for voting for the lynch?" I commented on this in 1322 at start of day.

Listen, im stoned just about all the time, its the only thing that keeps the demons and voices at bay, so just be glad that i can string together a coherent thought in a single post for the most part without losing focus and making it a very different post.

So... does the fact that she made that post on Day 1 change your view of that follow up?

[osuka]

imo it’s actually the other way around. If scum sees their partner about to be lynched, they probably wouldn’t risk hard defending someone because they would automatically be associated with their partner once their partner flips. Scum would be more likely to see where the general zeitgeist is headed and try to blend in by also turning on their partner.

Hmm I think this is a good point also. Perhaps we can eliminate scum!freddie+scum!votato as well as scum!votato+town!freddie

Usually I’d agree that town Freddie would mean town vota, but given that they’re friends could it be that scum vota is actually just defending town Freddie? I can’t see another way of vota being so sure of Freddie’s alignment

[osuka]

To be clear, not implying any rule breaking going on here

[Nauci]

Freddie can be town here being propped up by Scum!Vota who is white knighting the shit out of Freddie. Freddie hasnt done anything that is going to shed light on Votas alignment.

I don't think this is true. I don't think scum Votato would double down so hard on Town!Freddie. I think this behavior would make more sense if they were scum together. But I don't think he would actively tarnish a fairly good standing in the eyes of most players to stop a mislynch.

why would i not tarnish a reputation to stop a mislynch? we get 3 mislynches. if im 95% sure that someone is town, ill do whatever i can to stop that lynch. town SHOULD do that. how about we try something here? why dont we listen to me, just for today. if we hit scum, then im right and myself and freddie are cleared. if im wrong we lynch me tomorrow and at that point it doesnt matter that we lose because you all are about to powerlynch me and freddie and lose anyway.

oh god votato you have somehow misread a post about you in a way that makes you look worse

[Nauci]

But guess what I have

you really gonna forget Lizzo here bruv?

[Nauci]

have i lost my mind? is this real life? I think my reality is collapsing

can a collapsing mind objectively observe its own collapse? and if something is only real if it is objectively observable, then is my mind really collapsing? or has my mind never been real?

dude I don't even know because I'm pretty sure we're currently in the 17th year of our March 2020

[osuka]

have i lost my mind? is this real life? I think my reality is collapsing

can a collapsing mind objectively observe its own collapse? and if something is only real if it is objectively observable, then is my mind really collapsing? or has my mind never been real?

dude I don't even know because I'm pretty sure we're currently in the 17th year of our March 2020

it's 2020????

[osuka]

But guess what I have

you really gonna forget Lizzo here bruv?

wait a minute are you british

[Nauci]

Gotta step out before I read the past 2 pages but since I don't see any gibus posts, I'ma drop this here until they explain their damn scum read on Formerfish

VOTE: Gibus

[Formerfish]

Retcon? Did you miss the post from Day 1 where Freddie super hammed it up that they were sheeping me on my meta-read of Brass?

Like, 1057 was so... extra? That I noted it as "is this scum absolving themselves of responsibility for voting for the lynch?" I commented on this in 1322 at start of day.

Listen, im stoned just about all the time, its the only thing that keeps the demons and voices at bay, so just be glad that i can string together a coherent thought in a single post for the most part without losing focus and making it a very different post.

So... does the fact that she made that post on Day 1 change your view of that follow up?

Im not sure i know exactly what you have an issue with or what you want answered.

I think that Freddie is using your read on Waves and sheeping there as a reason to not have to explain the vote. What are you saying and how does it fundamentally differ from what im saying to the degree that this is what you stick on with me for some reason?

[Formerfish]

But guess what I have

you really gonna forget Lizzo here bruv?

I know in my haste to post that sick meme burn i forgot this as well.

[Nauci]

Retcon? Did you miss the post from Day 1 where Freddie super hammed it up that they were sheeping me on my meta-read of Brass?

Like, 1057 was so... extra? That I noted it as "is this scum absolving themselves of responsibility for voting for the lynch?" I commented on this in 1322 at start of day.

Listen, im stoned just about all the time, its the only thing that keeps the demons and voices at bay, so just be glad that i can string together a coherent thought in a single post for the most part without losing focus and making it a very different post.

So... does the fact that she made that post on Day 1 change your view of that follow up?

Im not sure i know exactly what you have an issue with or what you want answered.

I think that Freddie is using your read on Waves and sheeping there as a reason to not have to explain the vote. What are you saying and how does it fundamentally differ from what im saying to the degree that this is what you stick on with me for some reason?

I just want your case to be on solid reasoning and if it was based on something that isn't actually true, then you should adjust for that. Like, it would be suss if she claimed that she scum read brass yesterday and then did a turn and said it was all me today, but she laid the foundations for that yesterday. I personally found THAT suss, but since it's not the same reason as you had, I wanted to clear that up.

But more importantly, I think y'all are so tunneled right now that you're leaving scummy stones unturned and potentially giving scum ways to sound busy without being busy by just commenting on your shenanigans with Freddie/votato. Gibus gave 4 town reads and cases on them, but has yet to respond to being called out by either of us for the inconsistent logic with which they town read me but scum read you, and I want an answer there before we end the day.

[Formerfish]

Gibus is in my scum pool. I'm not letting him slide.

[Nauci]

plus maybe the others who replaced out... didn't brass say you were awful too?

How come you didn't bring this up yesterday?

[Nauci]

You said "for pressure." Okay, nausi already pressure voted me. I posted only once in the thread after that, so it should be obvious the "pressure" wasn't going to achieve anything. Like my inactivity was clearly not the result of people not paying attention to me in this thread, so why did/do you think that paying attention to me would change my lack of activity after nausi's pressure vote was already shown to not have an effect?

UNVOTE: lilith2k13
Your response to Nauci's pressure vote looked unsatisfactory, and I confused your inactivity with lurking as scum. I agree, my vote was hasty.

Why are you scumreading Tuxedo and formerfish?

I'm scumreading Tuxedo's slot because of Copy.
I don't understand how FF found Copy

bleeding town

, and find it AI that he ignored my question.
His theory about how Fred was made to claim by his scum partner as a form of defence for not being the NK seems like a stretch because it is a really bad move by scum and I can see a newbtown make that kind of a mistake. But his insistence makes me wonder if he is the scum partner of Fred, and after successfully bussing and lynching Fred on D2, shift the focus on another townie for a mislynch to win the game. How is FF defending Copy different from votato defending Fred? Votato claims to know Fred IRL so that townread seems more plausible. I also find it weird that in the early stages of the game, FF says Copy's predecessor was statistically more probable to be scum, but still eliminates him in his PoE.

Went back to this post because I managed to forget it when the game turned into The Purge

I have a few follow up question for you, Gibus:

1: Do you think that scum!Formerfish would be motivated to be

this

active and stir up this much activity? What, in your view, makes up the difference between FF's scum hunting and mine that cause you to scum read him but strongly town read me?

2: Once you check your math on the math of night kills and lynches for scum to win, do you still think it's plausible that FF would bus his teammate today? Do you believe his case on votato for why he switched there?

3: How has your read on Lilith evolved now that she has participated a lot more?

[Freddiethelady]

ff the chain of events is accurate. But there's a really simple explanation for why Freddie claimed. She fucked up. As scum there's no reason for her to claim there. It's a bad play and has no upside regardless of alignment. Occams razor

Just replace the word "scum" with "town", and get "As town there's no reason for her to claim there."

Exactly. Nai

Yeah that's really not what I'm saying at all.

Scum!freddie claiming VT gets the benefit of people calling her noobtown and hard defending her for it; she gets the benefit of not having to explain why she wasn't the NK in this game ever; she gets the benefit of being able to tie messy associatives to the people who are defending her so even after she gets lynched, PoEs are fucked up by that claim.

At any time during that entire chain of events, freddie could have asked for clarification about what was happening if she was so clueless, like you say she is. She could have asked whether waves had really been lynched. She could have confirmed whether she needed to claim. Since you two know each other so well, she could have asked you directly to explain what was happening if she felt intimidated by others in the thread. She didn't do any of those things.

I did ask for help!

In post #1095 I asked FF why he was saying that to waves when he had just hammered me. He didn't respond. I felt a little panicked - I really messed up. My explanation aside from not fully understanding the game, the strategy, or the nuances is a really stupid and I don't know if it will be helpful but here it is: I play this from my phone, I had the message typed up and had to close my phone before I submitted it. Then when I came back, my text was still in the box - unsubmitted. I thought to myself 'I am probably already dead. I wonder if I'll get an email' I kicked myself for not submitting it and then quickly did in the hopes that I could save myself. At the beginning of the game, someone mentioned that you shouldn't claim your role unless you have to save your life. It is stupid, I should have been patient, and more careful. I just messed up. I don't know how to tell it any more true-er than that.

#1608 I felt really stupid. I was sure I would die after that since I confirmed town and would be an easy kill, and frankly I forgot that scum knew who the town were...for some reason I kept thinking that no one knew who anyone was except the two scum and their jobs were to find VTs before the PR knew who to protect.

#1524 and #1617 We never, ever discuss the game irl. Games are no fun if you cheat! I got into this game because he encouraged me to give it a shot. It would take away the thrill of the game if we swapped info! So you can stop making these insinuations. Votato doesn't need my defending, he's a big boy. He's smart, sharp and articulate. His insights are spot on and I trust him implicitly both here and irl. I don't know for sure what Votato role is, but he's pro-town in my mind in all his posts. I hesitated saying anything because I fear any stated opinion in support another player may be misconstrued, due to my reputation, and I really don't want to make it worse for Votato -- he's taken too much heat for me as it is, quite heroically I might add.

#1542 I can't defend myself, I was trying to make my agreement have some meat. I will read something and agree with it without feeling like it needs embellishments. I wasn't trying to sheep you or ham you...what does ham mean by the way? Or is that a real people, real world comment? Cause I obviously know that would mean irl. I need to learn how to agree with someone without making them feel like I'm sheeping them.

#1592 on this platform, we're nearly strangers. Our relationship outside of this platform is irrelevant to the game - you all were discussing previous games played together, we can't really relate. I subbed into a game with him (my first game) on day 2 and we lost. I barely contributed...so even if I could base our mafia-friendship off that brief interaction, it wasn't really 'chat' worthy.

#1599 what why?! that was a quick catch up. Can you explain why you went from 'what the hell happened to this thread' at 8:39 to to all caught up and ready to vote votato 8:40? (with a second post also at 8:39) That feels opportunistic to me not thoughtful.

#1605 I agree. You guys are miserable playmates.

#1606 deranged humans derive pleasure out of other people's pain.

#1607 Don't worry, I am here to second that for myself. And ya, #1433 is actually quite accurate with the telepathic thinking point.

[Freddiethelady]

forgot a comma after sharp. that makes me mad.

[osuka]

Why would scum white knight? To win an ally and/or to look good when that person flips town. No offense but Freddie doesn't seem to be that helpful of an ally, and multiple players are calling for Votato's head now even BEFORE Freddie flips. So either way it seems like it would be much easier and better for Scum!Votato to let the mislynch happen rather than stick his neck out in the first place. To me Votato starting down this road and finding it difficult to give up is if they're scum together.

That's exactly how I feel about it.

There's no way that Freddie/Tuxedo are scum together, and there's no way that votato is scum while Freddie is town, because he literally tossed a pretty widely town read position to the moon by quadrupling down on defending Freddie, and there's just no way that scum!votato would do that for town!freddie, I don't think even for a strong personal relationship? Those are my hardline premises for any other reads that I'm forming in this game.

Hmm rereading some posts and I think I agree with this actually

[osuka]

Ah good to see Freddie is still alive

[osuka]

How about this I’m gonna go sleep before I reply to that because I’m tired and I really can’t be arsed to write a post as long as I’d like it to be to reply to that big one over there

[osuka]

There are a few glaring things about it (the second half of the paragraph addressing out of game communication stands out), but I wanna bring particular attention to the following