Newbie 2007: Air [game over!]

[LuckyLuciano]

Spoiler:

Town points to Pozin for being active.

That’s lame. Fear active scum.

Feudian slip? Not enough to go on just this, honestly.

Yo you can't be playing mind games this early seriously

First poyzin says hello to everyone after a leave of absence because of some background check on strangers

Then Quick congratulates him for being active by awarding him town points

Then Bailey awards Town points to Quick for awarding town points

Then teacher agrees with both

@gibus remove that first vote please thanks

notajumble offsuit and marashu aren't present yet settle down

Who is this post directed to?

It’s a good post, but who is “you” that is playing mind games here?

Let the tryharding commence! The thing is, it's fairly obvious QQ is talking to the game as a whole...

Okay whatever Teacher can get back to me about #44 but I want to finish my takeaway of GB.

I'm hoping you're not scum again since you aren't asking those questions. I think I've only ever seen scum use them.

To me, this looks like GeorgeBailey is haphazardly throwing shade at Teacher without needing to commit to a scumread. They through out the possibility of Teacher being scum for a reason that’s NAI for the purpose of sowing doubt in the town. They say that they were trying to “prompt a reaction” out of teacher, and they elaborate here:

I wasnt expecting a static response. If he took it too seriously I would think that'd be scummy since I've seen scum act super defensive before over dumb tongue in cheek jokes.

However, based on the context of the first post, the second post does not make sense as GB’s response. The first post is obviously not a joke but a statement saying that they hope that Teacher was town. Therefore, by calling attention to the fact that Teacher is behaving similarly with their opening questions is only stated to manifest suspicion of Teacher and turn the focus onto him without having to do the legwork and find things that are scummy about Teacher. In the end, it would have been impossible to do so, as at the time Teacher should have very much been null due to the game just starting, so calling attention to something as “maybe scummy”, especially when they stated that it’s too early to tell whether Teacher’s line of questioning was an issue or not. It seems to me as if GB wanted to plant the idea that Teacher could be scum early on without having to pursue it any further and let Teacher react to it, when any reaction that Teacher could give would have been WIFOM at best and completely unhelpful at worst. Because of this, it seems to me that GB’s initial intent was to take a hands-off approach to the game, letting this run their course after provoking others with potential scumtells that aren’t really scumtells. This play style is usually done with malicious intent.

As a lesser but still impactful point, I also disagree with the town points awarded to Quick. For one, giving town points is in no way townie in and of itself, and there were already problems with Quick’s hasty rationale. However, GB giving town points to Quick after a total of 1 game-related post by Quick is already enough to raise alarm bells. I feel comfortable moving my vote out of RVS and towards someone who has a good chance of flipping scum.

UNVOTE: teacher

VOTE: GeorgeBailey

Moar tryharding...

Oh well I’ll be darned.

Get real, no one talks like this...

Who's the best player here, imho it's either Notajumbleofnumbers or offsuit and they haven't posted yet

This post never comes from scum.

Was this the first Buddy attempt of QQ or the second? I forget...

Poyzin is tryharding so they are probably Town..

Poyzin is tryharding so they are probably Town..

You said I was bussing literally two posts ago how does you just change your mind on your motives.

That’s not a natural progression at all.

You do a lot of talking and not a lot of reading it seems. I said that at the point I read it. Then I read the rest of what you were doing... so maybe there is progression there that you don't know about. But sure, assume I don't have progression and null read me anyways - that's cool too.

That’s lame. Fear active scum.

I like this post.

(Or at least, can you see the merits in how saying "I hope you aren't scum" can be interpreted as somewhat scummy? It's a phrase that I've used several times in my opening posts when I'm scum, because it could be interpreted as diet LAMIST from my perspective)

I've seen people do "I hope you're not scum" as town, but admittedly not on the first page. I'd place it as NAI right now.

First poyzin says hello to everyone after a leave of absence because of some background check on strangers

Then Quick congratulates him for being active by awarding him town points

Then Bailey awards Town points to Quick for awarding town points

What's your take-away from this?

I like this post.

Why do you "like" it? Is it something that helps you read them, or is this a buddy attempt?

Okay whatever Teacher can get back to me about #44 but I want to finish my takeaway of GB.

I'm hoping you're not scum again since you aren't asking those questions. I think I've only ever seen scum use them.

To me, this looks like GeorgeBailey is haphazardly throwing shade at Teacher without needing to commit to a scumread. They through out the possibility of Teacher being scum for a reason that’s NAI for the purpose of sowing doubt in the town. They say that they were trying to “prompt a reaction” out of teacher, and they elaborate here:

I wasnt expecting a static response. If he took it too seriously I would think that'd be scummy since I've seen scum act super defensive before over dumb tongue in cheek jokes.

However, based on the context of the first post, the second post does not make sense as GB’s response. The first post is obviously not a joke but a statement saying that they hope that Teacher was town. Therefore, by calling attention to the fact that Teacher is behaving similarly with their opening questions is only stated to manifest suspicion of Teacher and turn the focus onto him without having to do the legwork and find things that are scummy about Teacher. In the end, it would have been impossible to do so, as at the time Teacher should have very much been null due to the game just starting, so calling attention to something as “maybe scummy”, especially when they stated that it’s too early to tell whether Teacher’s line of questioning was an issue or not. It seems to me as if GB wanted to plant the idea that Teacher could be scum early on without having to pursue it any further and let Teacher react to it, when any reaction that Teacher could give would have been WIFOM at best and completely unhelpful at worst. Because of this, it seems to me that GB’s initial intent was to take a hands-off approach to the game, letting this run their course after provoking others with potential scumtells that aren’t really scumtells. This play style is usually done with malicious intent.

As a lesser but still impactful point, I also disagree with the town points awarded to Quick. For one, giving town points is in no way townie in and of itself, and there were already problems with Quick’s hasty rationale. However, GB giving town points to Quick after a total of 1 game-related post by Quick is already enough to raise alarm bells. I feel comfortable moving my vote out of RVS and towards someone who has a good chance of flipping scum.

UNVOTE: teacher

VOTE: GeorgeBailey

Like the aggressive push here, but not really seeing what you are seeing.

In all my games, I've rarely seen "casting shade" actually used by scum. In particular not as early as in post #17.

so is that a "Null" read then? I'll take that as a yes.

Scum is much more easily able to read other players as town, as they KNOW who is actually town.

The point of this post is to show that this person cares more about being liked then giving good information because it's a little too obvious than I feel makes me feel good about this post.

Who's the best player here, imho it's either Notajumbleofnumbers or offsuit and they haven't posted yet

This post never comes from scum.

Explain.
You can't throw out a statement like this without clarifying.

Why "CAN'T" someone do that? It looks like this is a fake distance attempt because still no read on this person AFAIK. Just looks like a fake conversation *shrug*

(i was town)

Justifying yourself for later.

Poyzin is tryharding so they are probably Town..

You said I was bussing literally two posts ago how does you just change your mind on your motives. That’s not a natural progression at all.

What do you mean they didnt mention it?
They mentioned it 2 posts later

Again, either intentionally or not (I really do think it was intentional) you are MISSING context with what you are saying here, which is that he DIDN'T talk about the word

tryharding

at all. I can only see one reason for this and that is that this is a chainsaw.

Poyzin is tryharding so they are probably Town..

You said I was bussing literally two posts ago how does you just change your mind on your motives. That’s not a natural progression at all.

What do you mean they didnt mention it?
They mentioned it 2 posts later

Huh? Did I stutter?

At this point you know what you done...

This feels like a bus.

Could you expand on why you think this is a bus?

Too much effort too early to be a real read. More or less.

This is lame. Town can put in effort early as well. You’re at two strikes.

(This is an empty threat)

Are you and 72 going to lynch me because I caught you?

This feels super defensive. I'm voting for QQ right now and am questioning you because I got an early bad ping, and I'm not liking what I'm seeing from you since. Every comment just feels really sarcastic or antagonistic and not really conducive to game-solving.

VOTE: Quick

Let's make the chainsaw public now...

I don;t normally like playing as scum.

But you do this game, amirite?

Why no response to this? You can joke with GB because you have history with him but you can't with me? Okay... Nice tryharding Scum...

I also wouldn’t answer such an obviously loaded question from you, but we can hear what 72 has to say.

You two both SUCK at missing details which is REALLY convenient. I said you didn't mention the word

tryharding

yet you are still pushing me? Please, this game is done already...

Because I clearly said the word

Joke

which is missing from context to justify the push on me here.

1. I already explained why i said I liked Marashu's post, in my post 118

2. If I find a post is alignment indicative and I choose to share that at the point in time, then I will state as much.
If im undecided then at least my post is there for myself and other to return to later on

3. I'm saying you can't just say someone is NEVER SCUM, i.e peg someone as being 100% town, from one's perspective, without explaining why to the rest of the player roster.

4. Deja vu from last game.
How likely do you think that scum is to chainsaw a scum-buddy with one vote on them in the first 10 pages or so?

Point made. Thank you for coming to this TEDTalk titled, "Use Spoilers to Avoid Triggering Lucky."

[Quick]

1. I already explained why i said I liked Marashu's post, in my post 118

2. If I find a post is alignment indicative and I choose to share that at the point in time, then I will state as much.
If im undecided then at least my post is there for myself and other to return to later on

3. I'm saying you can't just say someone is NEVER SCUM, i.e peg someone as being 100% town, from one's perspective, without explaining why to the rest of the player roster.

4. Deja vu from last game.
How likely do you think that scum is to chainsaw a scum-buddy with one vote on them in the first 10 pages or so?

Let's make a point guys.

72 didn't address a damn thing about my case.

[LuckyLuciano]

@Quick, I really don't care about that one time you hard tunneled and were correct. I spent ~7 years dealing with players who scumread me 50 times through 50 games and claimed to always catch me as scum because they indeed always scumread me when I was scum, yet failed to realize how it was problematic that they also always scumread me when I was town. Getting correct results through incorrect play is not impressive, and bragging about doing so is sad.

[Quick]

@Quick, I really don't care about that one time you hard tunneled and were correct. I spent ~7 years dealing with players who scumread me 50 times through 50 games and claimed to always catch me as scum because they indeed always scumread me when I was scum, yet failed to realize how it was problematic that they also always scumread me when I was town. Getting correct results through incorrect play is not impressive, and bragging about doing so is sad.

Well, sorry to say, but that just goes to show how little you know of me.

[LuckyLuciano]

From what I know of you so far, through out past game and through this game, you openly play antagonistic to anyone in the game who doesn't agree with you. That doesn't help the town win. Give the other players the respect that they are due.

[Quick]

From what I know of you so far, through out past game and through this game, you openly play antagonistic to anyone in the game who doesn't agree with you. That doesn't help the town win. Give the other players the respect that they are due.

The thing is... you know shit about me now.

[LuckyLuciano]

So, are you planning to stop being toxic at any point in this game, or should I learn to expect it?

[Quick]

So, are you planning to stop being toxic at any point in this game, or should I learn to expect it?

Replace out if you don't like me.

[LuckyLuciano]

So continued toxicity, got it.

[Quick]

And I already know who you are so there's no reason to altslip here.

[LuckyLuciano]

"1. Work with and listen to Town. I can't stress this enough. I made the mistake of playing completely independently for far too long and it ended up with a lot of bad reads. Working with Town greatly increases your chances of winning."

pedit: Hmm, who am I an alt of?

[Quick]

"1. Work with and listen to Town. I can't stress this enough. I made the mistake of playing completely independently for far too long and it ended up with a lot of bad reads. Working with Town greatly increases your chances of winning."

pedit: Hmm, who am I an alt of?

I can smell that emotional manipulation a mile away. RC ofc.

[LuckyLuciano]

@MOD

, can we get a VC please?

I am not about to be lynched D1 for the second time in a row in a newbie game based on people misunderstanding my play.

Do you think that maybe the problem is that your play is deliberately antagonistic? Maybe you perform better as scum than as town because your play in-itself makes people not want to play the game?

[LuckyLuciano]

"1. Work with and listen to Town. I can't stress this enough. I made the mistake of playing completely independently for far too long and it ended up with a lot of bad reads. Working with Town greatly increases your chances of winning."

pedit: Hmm, who am I an alt of?

I can smell that emotional manipulation a mile away. RC ofc.

RadiantCowbells? I'm glad you think so highly of me.

[Quick]

@MOD

, can we get a VC please?

I am not about to be lynched D1 for the second time in a row in a newbie game based on people misunderstanding my play.

Do you think that maybe the problem is that your play is deliberately antagonistic? Maybe you perform better as scum than as town because your play in-itself makes people not want to play the game?

How about you actually evaluate my arguments instead of... this... whatever this is. Do my arguments have merit or don't they? That's the question. The rest I don't really care about.

[LuckyLuciano]

They don't.

[Quick]

"1. Work with and listen to Town. I can't stress this enough. I made the mistake of playing completely independently for far too long and it ended up with a lot of bad reads. Working with Town greatly increases your chances of winning."

pedit: Hmm, who am I an alt of?

I can smell that emotional manipulation a mile away. RC ofc.

RadiantCowbells? I'm glad you think so highly of me.

Don't kid yourself. RC is only good because they play on people's emotions and bus a lot. Not really a whole lot redeeming about them as a person.

[Quick]

They don't.

Well, shucks I guess I'm wrong. Thanks for working with Town to get me to see that though.

[LuckyLuciano]

Well, you caught me. @Mod, can I post on my RadiantCowbells account now?

[Quick]

Well, you caught me. @Mod, can I post on my RadiantCowbells account now?

Even if you are not RC, this is still quite emotionally manipulative. Do you plan on using reasoning at any point, or naw?

[LuckyLuciano]

I'm working on my catch-up post that explains my reads. I'm also trying to get you on board with the idea that mafia is a cooperative activity while doing that. My reads are based on logic, and will come soon. Your attitude this game comes from a place of emotional damage, and I'm trying to help you work through that. Pathos and logos serve different roles.

[Quick]

I'm working on my catch-up post that explains my reads. I'm also trying to get you on board with the idea that mafia is a cooperative activity while doing that. My reads are based on logic, and will come soon. Your attitude this game comes from a place of emotional damage, and I'm trying to help you work through that. Pathos and logos serve different roles.

Okay, I guess I will just wait for you to be wrong about everything else as well.

[Quick]

Saying I have been toxic this game is pretty dumb, tbh. Not sure where you think I was being toxic. Mind explaining that?

[Quick]

I might be "edgy" or whatever, but I always have reasons to go with what I am saying. You saying my reasons mean "nothing" is kinda dumb, tbh. I'd like you to make a case on who is Scum as an alternative to what I have said.

[LuckyLuciano]

LuckyLuciano

NotAJumbleOfNumbers

- 145 is a good look. It's a true statement, so on its own it's NAI. However, when considering gamestate, this post equals an equity loss for scum and equity gain for town... I like 278. I don't like 279... 294 feels town... 337, I agree. The amount of strong townreads I'm arriving at is a bit concerning, but the amount of mindmelding I am doing with my townreads about their other townreads makes me think that I'm on the right track. This game is probably solved very early through PoE... 366, yep. Jumble is clearly aware of the scum equity loss in gamestate that I mentioned earlier when he made 145. If he's scum, he's working towards a gamestate that makes it harder for him to win.

teacher

- I understand what he feels in 55 WRT Poyzin. I'm not sure that his framing of Poyzin's player archetype is necessarily accurate though, which is probably why he has trouble reading players of that archetype. That's NAI, I just enjoy theory discussions... 171 still traces the way I'm reading the game pretty well. I'm cool with teacher being town for the day, if only because he's maintaining his sanity while surrounded by a bunch of crazy conspiracy theory level pushes... 326 and 328 speak precisely to how I feel the gamestate looks at the point those posts are made. The Poyzin vs Quick 1v1 drowned out all other voices to the point where if it's TvT, all scum has to do is not play the game. There are quite a few players who, 300 posts in, have yet to start existing. Why is that? Because town isn't forcing them to exist. I'm pretty confident that scum is within the lurkers... 339 coheres to the mindset read I've had of teacher, which makes me more comfortable extrapolating town!motive from his play... I see what he did in 410 and I love it. Traps are fun...

Poyzin

- I really didn't like how quickly he tried to get meaningful content out of me when I replaced in. For the record, I replaced in knowing that I was too tired to catch up immediately and never intended to contribute meaningfully yesterday. My opening posts were made to get some initial reactions to work with. This makes it odd that Marashu both asks if this is what my scum game looks like, and points out that I lean heavily on reaction tests while missing how my posts could have been reaction tests in 488. Anyhoo, back to Poyzin. I definitely found him to be trying too hard in my initial interaction with him, to the point of feeling LAMIST. However, I am currently at 49 and I have come to realize that he is always going to look like he is trying too hard and it's because of an overeagerness to solve the game. I think this coheres with the mindset read I got of him in his earlier posts WRT flaking from the site because he felt uncomfortable and also with how, in my experience, overeager town tends to tunnel in on things that are NAI and make fullblown scumreads out of them... 113 flags me as sus. I don't like that he feels a need to explain that he's being silly... 115, it looks like he took QQ's 65 personally. Subconsciously indicative of town!Poyzin. This is supported by the mindset present in 114... 174 I feel this. I like to talk to people in the dead thread. Poyzin feels a lot like town!me when I was a newbie (I have over 10 years of mafia experience, despite being considered a newbie on this site). I think that he thinks he's better than other players, and that's why he talks to spectators, because they are expected to understand him even when other players don't. This coheres with the mindset reads I've been getting so far... It looks like Jumbo sees this the same way in 208... I pretty much stopped reading Poyzin's posts somewhere after this point.

Quick

- I'm at 128 in my reading of the game and 547 with current discussions at the time of writing. In my experience, Quick picks a scumping and hard tunnels it for the rest of the game, refusing to look at anything else. He also throws his hands in the air and practically begs you to lynch him the moment somebody FoS' him as town. I need to look into his meta to see if he also does this as scum... I pretty much stopped reading Quick's posts somewhere after this point.

QuantumQuasar

- Gonna be honest, I don't really pay much attention to his posts when I play with him. I don't speak his language. 430 caught my eye though. It feels town for the same reason that Teacher and Jumble's approach to the gamestate feels town.

Marashu

- Not much felt AI early. 434, the reading of Poyzin vs Quick is becoming overwhelmingly TvT, and that concerns me. I feel that scum should be exploiting the gamestate is they are indeed TvT.

72offsuit

- I really don't like his early spew of posts. Not only are they almost entirely wrong on a theoretical level (unfortunately being wrong is NAI), but they don't provide meaningful content. They say, "I'm here", without saying much beyond that. This has me torn because when he does ask questions, he's asking the same questions that I want answered... 121 is okay. I think in general I don't read 72o and Quick as SvS... I kept reading 72o's posts for a while after this point but wasn't finding value and eventually stopped reading them.

GeorgeBailey

- Literally nothing groundbreaking all game. He just sinks into the background.

This is where I'm going to take a break. I wouldn't be surprised at all if {Marashu, 72o, George} is a winning PoE.