Mini Normal 2141: The World of Tomorrow [Game over!]

[Umlaut]

Vote Count 3.11

CantLynchAPuppy

(3): mavsfan41, votato, Dunnstral

hellbooks

(3): midwaybear, VP Baltar, ready2rock

Dunnstral

(1): CantLynchAPuppy

Not Voting

(2): hellbooks, Quick

With 9 alive, it takes 5 to lynch.

Deadline:

(expired on 2020-06-03 01:07:00)

[Quick]

VOTE: Dunn!

[Quick]

@Puppy,

This is why I am so dangerous in Lylo.

[midwaybear]

ok, quick and puppy are town together(probably not w/w and definite not w/v IMO).
pedit:

[mavsfan41]

Okay. So it’s no surprise to anyone that I think Puppy is scum. I honestly have no clue on the third scum (assuming a 3 scum team) but I think it’s most likely Hellbooks/Quick. The most volatile player would be Quick here. I go from thinking he’s super mega scum to likely-ish town. (More so than votato.) Quick is the type of player that if he IS SCUM, post-game I’m gonna be like wtf mavs?!?!? Quick was sooo obvious scum more so than hellbooks. I’ll take a hellbooks lynch and then upon a town flip, go after Puppy/Quick. Hellbooks replaced Atarashi, so that would be the scum NPOM vote (Quick being the other) so looking at the NPOM lynch, is it possibly that only 1 scum was there and 6 townies?!?

Bottom line, if I can’t get a Puppy lynch, I’ll take a hellbooks lynch with the premise of if hellbooks flips town, Puppy/Quick is going day 4. If hellbooks flips scum... I’ll look into that more upon the flip. (Again, I would want puppy cause he pushed hellbooks the least. So much so that he scum reads votato forever based on a day 1 attack of Atarashi. This would lead to a town result for Quick if it is hellbooks/Puppy.

Tl;dr - I want puppy. I’m okay voting hellbooks. If I can’t have either, fine, I’ll take Quick. Other than those, I’m likely not voting anyone else short of a guilty claim. Votato/midway I would entertain a case, but I wouldn’t vote them over the 3 listed above. VP I think is town (if you’re scum... nicely played!), and R2R/Dunn I don’t think are scum due to their interactions with Gamma.

[votato]

Okay. So it’s no surprise to anyone that I think Puppy is scum. I honestly have no clue on the third scum (assuming a 3 scum team) but I think it’s most likely Hellbooks/Quick. The most volatile player would be Quick here. I go from thinking he’s super mega scum to likely-ish town. (More so than votato.) Quick is the type of player that if he IS SCUM, post-game I’m gonna be like wtf mavs?!?!? Quick was sooo obvious scum more so than hellbooks. I’ll take a hellbooks lynch and then upon a town flip, go after Puppy/Quick. Hellbooks replaced Atarashi, so that would be the scum NPOM vote (Quick being the other) so looking at the NPOM lynch, is it possibly that only 1 scum was there and 6 townies?!?

Bottom line, if I can’t get a Puppy lynch, I’ll take a hellbooks lynch with the premise of if hellbooks flips town, Puppy/Quick is going day 4. If hellbooks flips scum... I’ll look into that more upon the flip. (Again, I would want puppy cause he pushed hellbooks the least. So much so that he scum reads votato forever based on a day 1 attack of Atarashi. This would lead to a town result for Quick if it is hellbooks/Puppy.

Tl;dr - I want puppy. I’m okay voting hellbooks. If I can’t have either, fine, I’ll take Quick. Other than those, I’m likely not voting anyone else short of a guilty claim. Votato/midway I would entertain a case, but I wouldn’t vote them over the 3 listed above. VP I think is town (if you’re scum... nicely played!), and R2R/Dunn I don’t think are scum due to their interactions with Gamma.

this, except midway over everyone except puppy

[Quick]

and R2R/Dunn I don’t think are scum due to their interactions with Gamma.

I've rejected Dunn being impossible to not be teamed with Gamma. Can you point me to a post where it's fairly clear that Dunn isn't teamed with Gamma?

[mavsfan41]

@Quick: 980. I know you’ll reject this, but at this point Blair had laid out a plan against Gamma. Only Dunn had voted it. This was before the “cop post of 1000” and R2R has gained steam again and had 3 votes (Gamma, myself, and votato). Saying Dunn is paired with Gamma would be suggesting that Dunn opt’ed to bus his partner here where he didn’t need to, as in, Dunn went out of his way to bus his partner where he could’ve easily voted elsewhere without suspicion.

The counter to a potential bus would be how Blair CONTINUED to push Gamma. Dunn didn’t. This argument would reject Dunn’s vote of Gamma as a bus and more as an early Gamma vote for town cred and also infer that Dunn threw it on unaware of a cop claim and didn’t think Gamma would be lynched after Blair’s case. Dunn also seemed to seek town cred with 1175. In addition, 1178 & 1183 would be awkward scum posts looking to set the stage knowing a Gamma flip will result in scum. So I guess if you’re saying Dunn did indeed bus Gamma, that would ALSO result in votato/myself being cleared. Potentially Puppy since he does have a confrontational approach to Puppy
1214 - 1218.

The presence of sheeping Blair but lack of a push on Gamma does strike me as odd. But I can’t see scum voting Gamma here with more attractive voting options available. So I think Dunn is likely town and did NOT bus Gamma, but the vote of Gamma without any follow up is noticeable and giving me doubts about Dunn, but I doubt he bus’ed Gamma in that situation. A bus is more likely to happen following the Blair claim OR scum trying to find reasons to NOT vote Gamma (aka Puppy and then you).

[mavsfan41]

@Dunn: so, do you have any fruit in your possession?

[Quick]

@Quick: 980. I know you’ll reject this, but at this point Blair had laid out a plan against Gamma. Only Dunn had voted it. This was before the “cop post of 1000” and R2R has gained steam again and had 3 votes (Gamma, myself, and votato). Saying Dunn is paired with Gamma would be suggesting that Dunn opt’ed to bus his partner here where he didn’t need to, as in, Dunn went out of his way to bus his partner where he could’ve easily voted elsewhere without suspicion.

The counter to a potential bus would be how Blair CONTINUED to push Gamma. Dunn didn’t. This argument would reject Dunn’s vote of Gamma as a bus and more as an early Gamma vote for town cred and also infer that Dunn threw it on unaware of a cop claim and didn’t think Gamma would be lynched after Blair’s case. Dunn also seemed to seek town cred with 1175. In addition, 1178 & 1183 would be awkward scum posts looking to set the stage knowing a Gamma flip will result in scum. So I guess if you’re saying Dunn did indeed bus Gamma, that would ALSO result in votato/myself being cleared. Potentially Puppy since he does have a confrontational approach to Puppy
1214 - 1218.

The presence of sheeping Blair but lack of a push on Gamma does strike me as odd. But I can’t see scum voting Gamma here with more attractive voting options available. So I think Dunn is likely town and did NOT bus Gamma, but the vote of Gamma without any follow up is noticeable and giving me doubts about Dunn, but I doubt he bus’ed Gamma in that situation. A bus is more likely to happen following the Blair claim OR scum trying to find reasons to NOT vote Gamma (aka Puppy and then you).

Yeah, my perspective on Dunn as a player (who I have vague memories of playing with before, which is basically just the kind of impression of them as a player) is that they would very well just park a vote on their Scum buddy for Town credit. Why do anything if you don't have to? You say the way Dunn hammered NPOM right? What makes you think Dunn is the type of player to put careful work into how they play? That's NOT a diss on Dunn... Any playstyle CAN work, but the WAY Dunn plays is kinda lazy. So I can't just buy that Dunn would do such and such based on generality without looking at how they play the game as a whole. That said, I DO get how you would have this perspective since your narrative is consistent in that you generally look at things as Scummy/Townie based on how things generally look rather than like, psychoanalyzing who you are playing with. That's not a dig at you either since I know it really depends on the DEGREE of the player rather than the playstyle itself.

As far as you and your claim goes, it makes sense that you would have been nervous about making your claim as either alignment. I say this because the claim you made is really really a weird role. I figure you as a more meat and potatoes guy when it comes to fake claims. That's my take on it.

[mavsfan41]

@Quick: 1183 & 1184 have a weird aura as if Dunn KNOWS Gamma will flip scum and is laying the groundwork if Gamma is lynched knowing what he’ll flip. There is a weird confidence of Gamma flipping scum with absolutely no follow up on Gamma. This would be like “Gamma is scum, who else is voting with him? Oh, mavs & votato, maybe I can set the stage for a mislynch upon Gamma flipping red.” 1184 does strike me as Dunn looking for a solve and trying to figure things out though.

On the one hand, I read this as Scum!Dunn voting Gamma, then laying the groundwork of votato/me (potentially Puppy) scum pairing with Gamma aka he’s believing Gamma is scum which is weird cause there is ABSOLUTELY no follow up from Dunn about Gamma

On the other hand, I could see this as town!Dunn throwing a vote on Gamma, and spitballing on a scum team in the moment of believing Gamma is scum. And this would be rejecting the idea of an early bus of Gamma where it didn’t need to happen. This I do believe to be the case.

[hellbooks]

to be quite frank accidentally outing myself has been like enormously poisonous to me wanting to post in this game and check the site in general but i give you my word i'll put in some labor tomorrow

[VP Baltar]

@Quick: 980. I know you’ll reject this, but at this point Blair had laid out a plan against Gamma. Only Dunn had voted it. This was before the “cop post of 1000” and R2R has gained steam again and had 3 votes (Gamma, myself, and votato). Saying Dunn is paired with Gamma would be suggesting that Dunn opt’ed to bus his partner here where he didn’t need to, as in, Dunn went out of his way to bus his partner where he could’ve easily voted elsewhere without suspicion.

The counter to a potential bus would be how Blair CONTINUED to push Gamma. Dunn didn’t. This argument would reject Dunn’s vote of Gamma as a bus and more as an early Gamma vote for town cred and also infer that Dunn threw it on unaware of a cop claim and didn’t think Gamma would be lynched after Blair’s case. Dunn also seemed to seek town cred with 1175. In addition, 1178 & 1183 would be awkward scum posts looking to set the stage knowing a Gamma flip will result in scum. So I guess if you’re saying Dunn did indeed bus Gamma, that would ALSO result in votato/myself being cleared. Potentially Puppy since he does have a confrontational approach to Puppy
1214 - 1218.

The presence of sheeping Blair but lack of a push on Gamma does strike me as odd. But I can’t see scum voting Gamma here with more attractive voting options available. So I think Dunn is likely town and did NOT bus Gamma, but the vote of Gamma without any follow up is noticeable and giving me doubts about Dunn, but I doubt he bus’ed Gamma in that situation. A bus is more likely to happen following the Blair claim OR scum trying to find reasons to NOT vote Gamma (aka Puppy and then you).

This is a pretty good sum up of how I feel about Dunn. He's kind of like wallpaper this game and the vote on Gamma so early is the only major point I see in his favor. I mean, it's a strong one in some sense. That would be a weird and monumentally stupid time to bus your partner if you ask me...so it feels like he is town. That being said, anything is possible.

I agree there wasn't a huge amount of follow through after the vote. Although, as I'm reviewing this it looks like Dunn only made about 6 posts between his vote and Blair's claim. That's over the course of a few hours.


@hellbrooks - why is outing the alt "poisonous" to you wanting to post here? I mean, it was an accident. I don't think anyone thinks less of you for doing it.

[CantHateAPuppy]

Okay. So it’s no surprise to anyone that I think Puppy is scum.

I honestly have no clue on the third scum (assuming a 3 scum team) but I think it’s most likely Hellbooks/Quick. The most volatile player would be Quick here. I go from thinking he’s super mega scum to likely-ish town. (More so than votato.) Quick is the type of player that if he IS SCUM,

post-game I’m gonna be like wtf mavs?!?!?

Quick was sooo obvious scum more so than hellbooks. I’ll take a hellbooks lynch and then upon a town flip, go after Puppy/Quick. Hellbooks replaced Atarashi, so that would be the scum NPOM vote (Quick being the other) so looking at the NPOM lynch, is it possibly that only 1 scum was there and 6 townies?!?

why wait until postgame? I am going "wtf mavs?!?!?!?" right now.

mavs out here just ignoring the last five pages, this guy thinks i would get to l-1 and spew for pages and pages, because apparently hellbooks is my scumbuddy but also if hellbooks is town i'm still scum. i bet when i flip green you'll even think it's somehow my fault, like there's no way you could have anticipated this tunnel being wrong

[midwaybear]

mavs tone is really weird tbh.

[CantHateAPuppy]

like, mavs, dude

does it not strike you as suspicious

AT ALL

that dunn has me as a townread this whole time and absolutely refuses to join votato on any wagon

and then, magically, when a lynch on me picks up steam, dunn suddenly declares that i'm scummy for vague, unsubstantiated reasons that completely invalidate the reads he's given all this time

[CantHateAPuppy]

like, mavs, dude

does it not strike you as suspicious

AT ALL

that dunn has me as a townread this whole time and absolutely refuses to join votato on any wagon

and then, magically, when a lynch on me picks up steam, dunn suddenly declares that i'm scummy for vague, unsubstantiated reasons that completely invalidate the reads he's given all this time

i had to browbeat this guy into voting me becuase he was willing to sit back and let me get run up

"oh, puppy is town, votato is scum so i don't want to sheep his wagon, but puppy is also scum now so i will vote puppy, but not yet because votato is still a better wagon"

this is 100% scum. am i the only person seeing this

[VP Baltar]

I'm definitely watching puppy.

Can you recap in a succinct way (like two or three sentences or some bullet points) your case? Want to make sure I'm reading everything correctly as I weigh stuff. No need to document or full recap, I can reread things for myself. Just the highlights in one place.

[CantHateAPuppy]

Sure:

* Dunn's main catch-up came in 853. He clearly felt good enough about his reads to hammer in the next post, but when pressed on how his reads have changed since 853 claims that those were early reads and so they don't mean much.

* Dunn still refuses to take responsibility for the D1 hammer. He keeps blaming quick for telling him to hammer. This is a cop out.

* Dunn had votato as a strong scum read and me as a weak town read. Then, last night (forgot post num, on phone), he decided he's willing to Lynch me after all even though he had said the whole time he wouldn't vote with votato. That's not a natural evolution, that's just convenient.

The whole pattern of Dunn's iso is refusing to take responsibility and convenient reads when he needs them. The only point in his favor is that he voted gamma before Blair claimed, but I think that's weak.

[CantHateAPuppy]

There's no grace period for linking finished games, right?

As in, as soon as a game is finished, it's no longer "ongoing" and I can link to it right

[midwaybear]

Yes, I think so.

[VP Baltar]

Yeah, once a game is done, it's done as far as I know.

[CantHateAPuppy]

well, i don't think anyone really gets anything out of reading old games, i think meta is kinda bs

but i just finished this game as scum if anyone wants to compare: https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=82764

part of there reason i'm linking is that mavs was in that game too (although we were never alive at the same time) and i've started to wonder if his vague scumread of me here is really based on that game. would like to hear his thoughts, because until i realized that might be why he scumreads me i was planning to link this game and beat him over the head with how different i am in this one

[mavsfan41]

@Puppy: I think I’ve laid out why I SR you. Like quite a bit actually. Influenced by that game? Not particularly (although after being NK’ed I was spoiled in the dead thread you were scum, so I did know you were scum in that game for weeks now). Congrats on winning! Pretty brutal in an 11:2 setup to make it to lylo and still achieve a mislynch. Well played!

As for the postgame “wtf mavs” for a Quick/Puppy pairing. Right now that’s my solve. So if it does end up being correct, post-game hindsight of being talked out of it and coaxed by scum!Quick to re-evaluate Dunn as an alternative to scum!Puppy is going to be a mindfuck. I’m open to a re-evaluation of Dunn, but not entirely sure I’d end up voting there.

I read your wall posting and spam of the thread at L-1 as an incoherent thought of just posting any sorta scummy post by any player or any flimsy scum theory in an attempt to throw stuff at the wall and see what happens. That’s how I read it, not sure if that’s how others interpreted it.

As for hellbooks: 1812 & 1830 make NO sense for scum!hellbooks to post. She votes puppy and scum would just sit on that and not remove an L-1 vote and then gauge interest on a re-evaluation of the R2R slot potentially starting a new wagon with a mislynch so close. Thoughts?

[CantHateAPuppy]

thanks but not fishing for compliments. ur read on me seems really empty, you can say you've laid it out but it's just stuff about tone and style more than an actual case imo. so i wondered if you were just reading that game into this one and not elaborating for that reason. (like, poking questions at everybody and "throwing stuff at the wall" is not scum, you will never find scum motivation there because it doesn't exist, i hope ur a little embarrassed about that when i flip)

you're "open to a re-evaluation" on dunn. ok then, tell me what you think about about dunn suddenly being open to lynching me in a complete 180 from where he's been all game. dude is clearly just angling for a comfy position on a mislynch wagon. i've put the question a few different times now, please don't just declare you're "open" to answering it without answering it