Micro 941 | Brass and Shrapnel | Game Over!

[Hoctac]

Also, I read your Tuxe case and it doesn't resonate with me that much. I can get behind it being strange why he continuously asked people for why they scumread Ceejay despite voting for him, but the scumreading two people who scumread each other is fine. Preflip analysis is lame and and there's nothing wrong with having independent scumreads.

[Hoctac]

I'm not sure at the moment, Kilga's pinging me the most. I don't like the logic of their push on me at all, it seems like a very dishonest representation of where I stood at the end of day one. Also, their now town read of you seems weird but I don't know if its scum motivated. Would scum!Kilga come into day 2, and say they reevaluated their read of you now that instead of having to convince three people, they and Roses only have to convince one? You could explain that with them potentially being Scum!Hoctac and Scum!Kilga, but I think that's really unlikely since it's a huge risk on their part to have Kiga spend all of day 1 bussing their partner.

I struggle to see a world where Kilga is scum and Roses are town. Since, Kilga absolutely continues scumreading me and capitalises on Roses' scumread on me to win today.

Roses pushing Kilga here also suggests they're not scum together either. So weirdly that means Kilga is probably town here?

That makes sense, right?

[Hoctac]

My best guess at this juncture is PP + Hoctac. See my 962 for my current opinion on PP. I looked through a Hoctac + clidd/PP Day 1 iso yesterday and their interactions were somewhat limited and fairly casual when they happened, and some of PP's stated suspicion of me is based on things Hoctac has done, which I have no control over.

Fake edit: Why are you asking me who I want lynched when I already posted 962? If you're going to gun for me this hard, shouldn't you be reading all of my posts? (RE: Hammer, either of them can hammer the other, but I'd prefer Hoctac hammer PP.)

Wait, what? You imply you think it's me + Penpow through associative stuff, but then want one of us to hammer the other? Shouldn't you get someone from another possible team pairing to want to hammer him, or are we your top independent scumreads as well?

[Kilgamayan]

@N3R (and I suppose Tuxedo and Hoctac): Okay, here are the listings I promised. (Spoiler tags are for length even though this isn't really too terribly long on the whole)

Spoiler: List of NAI suspicions about/accusations against Koba

Playing the role puzzle/mechanical solving - 609[post], [post]639, 673, 682, 793
Koba being "the leading wagon" and then that wagon vanishing* - 623, 640
Making mechanical errors - 639, 673, 682
Misreading/making factual errors about things that are not current game opinions: the general string of posts from 648 to 656, 684, 793

*An explanation the including of this one:

1) Koba was never "the" leading wagon at a meaningful point in the day, he was only ever "a" leading wagon, and he never went beyond 2 votes.
2) There are only two scum in this game, so scum are not numerically capable of dissolving a wagon on their own unless that scum is voting themselves.
3) PP admits in 673 that this is NAI but he "just find

it interesting", which, c'mon, you're not going to mention it repeatedly if you don't think it shold be used as a point against Koba.

Spoiler: List of NAI/factually incorrect suspicions about/accusations against myself

Prewriting posts overnight: 828, 931 (NAI)
Justifying Hoctac/Kilga scum team feeling by citing Hoctac not tcaring about my lynch order: 926 (factually incorrect)
Justifying Hoctac/Kilga scum team feeling by citing ping from us being the last two claims: 927 (factually incorrect)
Writing long posts in general (NAI): 931

That's a whole lot of bad accusations from where I'm sitting. What

good

arguments would you say PP has made that make you think PP is town, outside of the piggybacking on the efforts of others against me? just now You are welcome to disagree with any of my assessments above and/or cite things you think I missed, whatever works for you.

Also, what is the general ethos at this site about "if I were scum I would do X" statements? At other places I've played repeatedly making statements like these is often a each way to get a lynch in the face, but perhaps things are different here.

(Will address recent Hoctac posts next)

[Kilgamayan]

*each = easy

[Kilgamayan]

outside of the piggybacking on the efforts of others against me

To be clear, this was intended to end in "just now" as a reference to 996. Could've sworn I included that, but apparently not!

@Hoctac: I feel legitimately bad that N3R was willing to engage with me on discussing PP at a time when we were both active and then I ended up not being able to get to their request until just now when they're likely both asleep.

Regarding hammers, in retrospect, I suppose it doesn't actually matter who hammers you in a hypothetical Hoctac lynch, because the only way your hammerer would be relevant is if you are town and lied in your roleclaim. So strike that request, I guess.

As for the hammerer in a hypothetical PP lynch, at the time, I picked you because I felt like PP pointing out bunnying behaviors between the two of us could have been actively planned by the two of you, and so it was just easier to have one of you hammer the other. In thinking about it some more, though, I have realized that that's a bad way of thinking and have changed my mind on that matter; in a hypothetical PP lynch, I would actually prefer Tuxedo Mask be the hammer, because Town Tuxedo hammering Town PP would logically require a Hoctac/N3R scum team, which I see as

extremely

unlikely given how the game has panned out.

[Night 3 Roses]

Roses, could you give some reasons for why Penpow is playing like his townself, and how his scum game is different to this?

your dear friend Hectic was playing in the last iteration of this setup which featured scum!pingu, has he told you about that game? to me PP feels different to me this game than there, do you not feel the same?

I struggle to see a world where Kilga is scum and Roses are town. Since, Kilga absolutely continues scumreading me and capitalises on Roses' scumread on me to win today.

did i miss kilga dropping his scumread of you?

@kilga, thank you, i'll take a look at it soon.

on the subject of hammering: wouldn't it make the most sense to have the lynchee choose who hammers them? saying "from my pov X should hammer Y" is all fine and dandy except we don't exactly know is your pov a scum or town one. however, if we have the lynchee choose, then (either it's scum/bomb/vig so it doesn't matter or) we have a 100% town controlled death. unless they refuse to hammer, which will be spicy on its own.

-D

[Night 3 Roses]

2) There are only two scum in this game, so scum are not numerically capable of dissolving a wagon on their own unless that scum is voting themselves.

i don't understand this, can you explain/rephrase?

how is playing mechanics/role puzzle NAI? arguably, you were scumreading me at the beginning of the game for being overly mechanical/talking about the past game as opposed to scumhunting, no? would you say that's also NAI?

and i mean fair, writing more longer posts is probably NAI, but that's not the only basis (or really the main one) that his argument against you lies, no? also, in the above spoiler you wrote that he's accusing Koba for misreading/making factual errors (implying that should be NAI) while in the bottom one half of your points are PP making factual errors.

Also, what is the general ethos at this site about "if I were scum I would do X" statements? At other places I've played repeatedly making statements like these is often a each way to get a lynch in the face, but perhaps things are different here.

depends from player to player. some see "self meta" as town indicative, some as NAI, some as scum indicative. every once in a while "what would you do as scum here?" is used as a question to sort people. if you've got something good, go ahead.

-D

[Hoctac]

your dear friend Hectic was playing in the last iteration of this setup which featured scum!pingu, has he told you about that game? to me PP feels different to me this game than there, do you not feel the same?

I guess he didn't really make a push in lylo and more so sat back. Actually, he was more passive the whole game there. True.

[Hoctac]

Wait, actually, Penpow is capable of being aggressive and vocal as scum too. You're townreading him off the sample size of just 2 games?

[Hoctac]

So you are proposing my attitude should be "this isn't accomplishing anything but I'm going to do it anyway"? That would be a very illogical approach, particularly in LYLO. If what I've done so far isn't accomplishing anything then town is much better served that I look for things I might have missed elsewhere.

What I'm saying is that this line of reasoning is flawed...

If Tuxedo were scum, then two of those three reactions are genuine town reactions from people that seem to know what they're doing better than I. That's enough to tell me that the case isn't worth pursuing.

If that's true then they don't 'know what they're doing better'. Right, from Town!Kilga perspective town can either have majority genuine reaction to me and be wrong or have a majority ingenuine reaction to me and be right. It can't be both. So to drop it here feels really off. Now Scum!Kilga could reach this conclusion because they know two of Roses, PP, and Hoctac reactions are genuine and not being convinced to lynch Town!Tux.

Also, if Kilga is town, I don't see scum's play here? Like I'm pretty sure going for the quick hammer on me is the best play.

I don't know regarding the last line. I feel like if the scumteam is Penpow + Roses, it's entirely possible they just sit back and hope Kilga votes you and then they quickhammer for the win. But waiting around instead of voicing support in this case might have backfired if that was the case.

[Hoctac]

I think it's Penpow + Roses/Tux now. The DkKoba kill coming from scum only makes sense if Penpow is scum. If he's town, then having DkKoba and Penpow battle it out in lylo is like an easy victory for scum.

I want to vote Penpow.

[PenguinPower]

That’s because you’re scum with Kilga.

[PenguinPower]

Like - your PP kills Koba as scum is just wrong on its face, but also would require scum me knowing it was going to be Lylo today.

[Hoctac]

Oh, true. But still, that DkKoba kill does imply you.

How am I scum with Kilga if he was seriously pushing for me for most of day 1. Like full on casing, asking people to look at this case, and constantly asking people to vote me?

[Kilgamayan]

2) There are only two scum in this game, so scum are not numerically capable of dissolving a wagon on their own unless that scum is voting themselves.

i don't understand this, can you explain/rephrase?

It is possible that I am misunderstanding the intended meaning of that point against Koba. I take the idea that someone's wagon quietly dissolving is a sign of their scumminess to mean "scum buddies helped to dissolve the wagon to avoid the scum getting too much attention". Such an explanation doesn't make sense to me in a two-scum-game setting, though, because assuming scum are not self-voting, at most one scum is voting for another scum at any given time, and so there is very little control scum would have over a scum wagon dissolving.

But, like I said, it is possible I am misunderstanding the intended meaning of the original point; if I am, I am willing to reconsider including it in the NAI list.

how is playing mechanics/role puzzle NAI? arguably, you were scumreading me at the beginning of the game for being overly mechanical/talking about the past game as opposed to scumhunting, no? would you say that's also NAI?

The difference (to me) between late D1 Koba and early D1 you was that late D1 Koba has also spent a good deal of time scumhunting whereas early D1 you had not done any that I could see. Once you started doing other things that were more opinion-based/scum hunt-y I was perfectly willing to let it go.

and i mean fair, writing more longer posts is probably NAI, but that's not the only basis (or really the main one) that his argument against you lies, no?

Truth be told, I didn't know for sure what PP's entire argument against me was when I pledged to write you the list you requested. PP's posting style being lots of short posts makes it hard for me to determine full cases from them. (I try to put together longer, more infrequent posts with points organized as best I can because I think it makes my cases clearer.) If an easy summary of it is possible then I'd be glad to re-examine. (Whether that changes my mind or not would depend on the volume and strength of any parts of the case, of course.)

also, in the above spoiler you wrote that he's accusing Koba for misreading/making factual errors (implying that should be NAI) while in the bottom one half of your points are PP making factual errors.

I believe there are different types of misreadings/factual errors, depending on purpose/intent/what-have-you. To me, Koba thinking there are 3 scum or not knowing if bombs can be roleblocked NAI because they aren't being used to push the idea that someone is scum, whereas PP's claims about the priority lists and claim orders aren't NAI because they are being used to support the idea of a Kilga/Hoctac scum team.

Also, what is the general ethos at this site about "if I were scum I would do X" statements? At other places I've played repeatedly making statements like these is often a each way to get a lynch in the face, but perhaps things are different here.

depends from player to player. some see "self meta" as town indicative, some as NAI, some as scum indicative. every once in a while "what would you do as scum here?" is used as a question to sort people. if you've got something good, go ahead.

-D

Nah, I have nothing so important to particular ask/contribute there. It was mostly just double-checking.

[PenguinPower]

Oh, true. But still, that DkKoba kill does imply you.

How am I scum with Kilga if he was seriously pushing for me for most of day 1. Like full on casing, asking people to look at this case, and constantly asking people to vote me?

Because framing and bussing aren’t things that happen in mafia ever. He ended up off you at end of day anyway.

[PenguinPower]

If we’re lynching me, Kilga has to be the hammer.

[Kilgamayan]

Confirming I'm totally fine with hammering.

FWIW I think Koba's death (assuming they were the NK) is a null tell wrt PP's alignment, I mentioned before that Koba was very clearly town after their hammer vote and enomis's flip and as such would have been worth any scum team's time killing.

[Hoctac]

Not if Penpow is town though? They were both death tunnelled.

[Kilgamayan]

I could see a team that doesn't include PP killing Koba in an attempt to frame PP, since it's not like Koba was a bad kill independent of PP interactions.

[Hoctac]

Eh, I don't know. I was voting them EoD yesterday. Tuxe was voting them yesterday as well for times.

[Hoctac]

But yeah, obviously, it's not clear cut and framing/WIFOM exists. It just makes it more likely.

[Tuxedo Mask]

I'm not sure at the moment, Kilga's pinging me the most. I don't like the logic of their push on me at all, it seems like a very dishonest representation of where I stood at the end of day one. Also, their now town read of you seems weird but I don't know if its scum motivated. Would scum!Kilga come into day 2, and say they reevaluated their read of you now that instead of having to convince three people, they and Roses only have to convince one? You could explain that with them potentially being Scum!Hoctac and Scum!Kilga, but I think that's really unlikely since it's a huge risk on their part to have Kiga spend all of day 1 bussing their partner.

I struggle to see a world where Kilga is scum and Roses are town. Since, Kilga absolutely continues scumreading me and capitalises on Roses' scumread on me to win today.

Roses pushing Kilga here also suggests they're not scum together either. So weirdly that means Kilga is probably town here?

That makes sense, right?

Yes, it does. I feel in a tough spot at the moment, as Kilga seems the most scummy on their own, I just don't see anyone being their partner. I need to reread PP, and Kilga's case on them. But I'm really not seeing it.

I don't know regarding the last line. I feel like if the scumteam is Penpow + Roses, it's entirely possible they just sit back and hope Kilga votes you and then they quickhammer for the win. But waiting around instead of voicing support in this case might have backfired if that was the case.

Yeah, like it's possible, but I'm not sure why they wouldn't at least put their finger on the scale. Like Occam's razor and all that.

I think it's Penpow + Roses/Tux now. The DkKoba kill coming from scum only makes sense if Penpow is scum. If he's town, then having DkKoba and Penpow battle it out in lylo is like an easy victory for scum.

I want to vote Penpow.

Sorry did I miss something, why are we so sure the NK was Koba? Just because of the hammer? Also, do you think scum would have predicted that day 2 would be lylo? Or do you just mean none PP scum would have kept Koba and PP around for as long as possible?

[Hoctac]

ceejay was townreading DkKoba. No one here has claimed kills on anyone who died. So it has to be ceejay killing Holden and blowing up, and DkKoba dying to the nightkill. Also, we can safely assume DkKoba would've shot Penpow in the night, and clearly that did nothing.

The lylo thing was an incorrect assumption on my part, but yeah, I would think scum would want to keep both around.