Farkran's mini normal review, June 2020

[implosion]

Hi implosion,

i /inned the mini normal queue, here's my setup (13p):

Mafia Odd-Night Rolecop
Mafia Multitasking Compulsive Fruit Vendor
Mafia Goon

Town Loud Jailkeeper

Town Tracker

Town 1-shot Simple Masonizer

[Once per game, at night, you can target a player. If the player is a Vanilla Townie, you become masons. Any other circumstance makes the ability consumed and fails.]

Town Night 2+ Macho Weak Doctor

[Starting from Night 2 (inclusive), the Macho and Weak modifiers are added to your role, meaning that you can no longer be protected from night kills and if you target Mafia with your ability, you will die.]

VTs up to 13 players

(I already mentioned that masonizer isn't whitelisted)

[implosion]

Primary: northsidegal
Secondary: gobbledygook

[northsidegal]

Gonna let gobble have a chance to chime in first.

[Farkran]

Hello there! Wow, i got nsg as a reviewer, i'm excited! Nice to meet you, we haven't played together yet but i heard miiiiles about you - also i read some of your posts, all of which deserved respect for their in-depth analysis and amazing tone.

And hello again gobble, me and you have played at least a couple game together which i remember to be fun, so happy to have you here too!

This is my first time modding, so any advice is welcome. I played some normal games before starting my mod career, so i want to share my thoughts about how i'd like to "shape" my setup. This might be useful to tailor the suggestions towards a general direction, even in case the original idea needs significant changes.

1)

My primary goal is to encourage scum fakeclaims and dayplay. This is why i included a rolecop and a fruit vendor in their team - they should provide added info, and room for a strong investigative claim (rolecop) or a weak PR claim (fruit vendor), while also increasing the false positive chances for the town tracker.

2)

In contrast, town should be able to gain soft results as they go on, but very few possibilities for hard results.

2a)

All the PRs have a night action, so the Tracker felt like a natural choice.

2b)

The Masonizer is there to allow town to produce a single hard clear, under the proper circumstances. Now about the normal whitelist issue, this role could be changed into a 1-shot Simple Loyal Neighborizer which is... almost literally the same thing with a different name.

2c)

The Loud Jailkeeper is there to provide wifom and protection to the town. It would be dangerous to use it offensively as it would immediately out to the scumteam that you are a PR of some kind, and likely killed shortly after. Could be useful when there is only one scum left alive, but i don't see this happening many times statistically speaking.

2d)

The Doctor, who gains Macho and Weak starting night 2, is there to provide another layer of protection and investigation. The Weak modifier might actually be too strong as an investigative option since it provides hard clears from night 2 onwards, we might want to gate it more (Night 3+? Even-Nights only?), maybe scrap the modifier in favor of something milder like Indecisive, or replace the entire role with a less impactful option such as a Tracker Backup.

3)

I specifically want to avoid vigilantes and anything related (gunsmith, psychologist, mafia doctors...). Also i would like to limit town named roles to 4 to facilitate scum PR claims.

4)

The game pace is supposed to be slow but steady, with very little swing overall. Night actions become more relevant as days pass, with the ability to produce massive information per night but without knowing which alignment it is tied to.

That's all! Looking forward to your judgement. I will keep my mind open to any criticism or suggestion, i love setup speccing in general and i take this as an opportunity to learn more about the review process from more experienced users. Hopefully one day i will join the review group too.

[gobbledygook]

Mafia Odd-Night Rolecop
Mafia Multitasking Compulsive Fruit Vendor
Mafia Goon
vs
Town Loud Jailkeeper
Town Tracker
Town Night 2+ Macho Weak Doctor [Starting from Night 2 (inclusive), the Macho and Weak modifiers are added to your role, meaning that you can no longer be protected from night kills and if you target Mafia with your ability, you will die.]VTs up to 13 players
7 VTs

I turned the Simple Masonizer into a Vanilla Townie since the role is not whitelisted and thus not allowed in Normal games.

I think this current iteration of the setup is townsided. The Mafia cannot do anything to stop these power roles from acting, which I think is a problem. It is true that the Mafia can kill to "remove" a power role, but the town has "3" ways of preventing a nightkill which greatly hinders the Mafia. Tracker grows increasingly more powerful as the game goes on and the amount of mafia dwindles. Additionally, the Doctor is incredibly powerful and oddly enough only becomes more powerful with the Weak Modifier. Once the Jailkeeper is out of the way, the Mafia's plausible deniability surrounding the Weak Doctor plummets.

My first suggestion is to switch the alignments of the Loud Jailkeeper and the Fruit Vendor. I might even make the Fruit Vendor Loyal/Disloyal. My second suggestion is to further gate the Tracker or the Fruit Vendor in some way (odd night, even night, x-shot).

[Farkran]

Version 2

Mafia Odd-Night Rolecop
Mafia Loud Jailkeeper
Mafia Goon

Town Compulsive Fruit Vendor

Town Tracker

Town 1-shot Simple Loyal Neighborizer

Town Macho Indecisive Doctor

6 VT

Issues addressed in v2:

- Less townsided
- Scum can now roleblock
- Doctor is no longer a strong investigative option

[gobbledygook]

Haha, it didn’t even occur to me that Loyal Neighborizer is (mostly) equivalent time Masonizer.

[northsidegal]

nice to meet you too, farkran.

i actually think that the first iteration of this setup was probably closer to balanced than version 2. mafia loud jailkeeper is a cool and sort of deep role when it comes to how to actually use it (e.g. blocking a PR means you're gonna have to own up to that somehow), but along with the combination of a rolecop it's probably more scum power than is typical for an average normal game, and i don't think town is strong enough to warrant it. loyal neighborizer is obviously strong but the combination of loyal and simple means that effective use of it isn't actually the easiest thing, and if the shot fails then the person holding the role is sort of left with this conundrum of what exactly to do with that information.

if you want to keep more of an element of scum fakeclaims i would swap back the loud JK and the fruit vendor and probably just do something about the doctor, which i feel is the weakest part of the setup (not in terms of power, but in terms of setup design). there are a few other ways i think various roles could be swapped around but it's clear that you've got a vision of how you want this to go so i'll leave it mostly up to you.

[northsidegal]

the original setup does have sort of a possibility for a huge positive feedback loop if scum gets killed early, but that's probably the case for basically any game if scum were to be lynched, say, day one and day two. it's also probably the case even if scum isn't lynched early but the PRs still survive until fairly late in the game. in any case, i think the rolecop probably helps alleviate that problem.

[gobbledygook]

I personally think rolecop is a very useless mafia power role because optimal mafia play should be getting people to claim anyway. People can’t really keep it in their pants when it comes to power roles.

——

NSG what about turning the doctor into a bodyguard?

[northsidegal]

Bodyguard isn't as bad in this setup as it could be in other setups but in general I'd say it's not a role that I'm a huge fan of. I do, however, like the idea of some sort of kill stopping in this setup, if only because it might introduce some doubt as to the jailkeeper's results, which I think is probably in service of the goal of focusing on dayplay.

I was thinking 1-shot bulletproof would be an interesting way to do that.

[gobbledygook]

1-shot BP adds just enough confusion surrounding the JK I think. I support that change

[Farkran]

Version 3

Mafia Odd-Night Rolecop
Town Multitasking Compulsive Fruit Vendor
Mafia Backup Odd-Night Rolecop

Mafia Loud Jailkeeper

Town Tracker

Town 1-shot Simple Loyal Neighborizer

Town Activated 2-shot Bulletproof

6 VT

Issues addressed in v3:

- Scum can no longer access the rolecop+roleblock combo
- Backup Rolecop prevents a situation where the only actual scum power is removed d1 and they are left as sitting ducks, but otherwise shouldn't be much more impactful than a goon
- Doctor turned into an activated 2-shot bulletproof to restrain town control over their protection potential. 1-shot automatic Bulletproof felt too slow in terms of game pace, 1-shot Activated BP sounded too weak so i'm proposing a 2-shot activated instead.

I personally think that Rolecop is a good tool to direct scum NKs better, and it also allows for nice counterclaims around lategame - for instance you could claim a much weaker role than you actually are, such as Vanilla Cop or Neapolitan, and make the fakeclaim more believable. Town should still be skeptical of too many investigative claims, which is (ideally) what makes the difference between good and bad play.

I am also not a fan of Bodyguards since i find them not funny to play as and against. There's not much to gain by replacing the death of player A with player B, unless you know that player A is more valuable to begin with, which is often not the case.

I really like the idea of the "masonizer" as it tunes down the power of a loyal neighborizer, but maintains the cool factor about getting a potential hard-inno AND the ability to communicate with it. There is roughly a >50% chance to fail the attempt (~6 invalid targets out of 12, plus a possible roleblock, depending on the d1 lynch), but relying on RNG isn't this role's best bet. Ideally, the player filling this slot should try to get a VT claim (which should avoid the NK) and confirm it the subsequent night, immediately gaining 2 conftowns - subject to wifom from the hooded target and the rest of the town POV, but not from the neighborizer's own POV.

[Farkran]

oh i failed at swapping roles but you get what i mean

[northsidegal]

mm, i'm not sure i really like activated BP because it in some part removes what i was going for where you can't really be sure if a stopped kill was because of the jailkeeper or the bulletproof, whereas if the BP doesn't activate then you probably could. that being said, the addition of the backup rolecop probably balances that out?

i think the addition of the backup puts this setup into

slightly

scumsided, but that could be a hasty judgment. either way, i'm gonna mull it over for a bit and would like to hear gobble's thoughts.

in the mean time, could we see your rules and role PM?

[northsidegal]

i think the addition of the backup puts this setup into slightly scumsided, but that could be a hasty judgment.

meant to say slightly scumsided but not so much that i wouldn't pass it

[Farkran]

mm, i'm not sure i really like activated BP because it in some part removes what i was going for where you can't really be sure if a stopped kill was because of the jailkeeper or the bulletproof, whereas if the BP doesn't activate then you probably could. that being said, the addition of the backup rolecop probably balances that out?

i think the addition of the backup puts this setup into

slightly

scumsided, but that could be a hasty judgment. either way, i'm gonna mull it over for a bit and would like to hear gobble's thoughts.

in the mean time, could we see your rules and role PM?

May i ask you why the automatic BP would provide better information/clearance than the activated version? The main (and only?) difference would be that the player with automatic BP would hear directly from the mod that he is no longer protected after he sees a No Kill outcome the next day, whereas the activated version would have to take a guess.

As for the rules, sure i'm going to write a good-formatted post in a short while

[northsidegal]

Bulletproof roles don't receive mod information as to when they've been shot, and that's sort of the point. I intended it to provide worse information, not better, sort of as a balancing factor in scum's favor.

[Farkran]

Sorry, i feel i might be missing something from this bulletproof discussion because i cannot understand the difference - this is probably because we have something different in our minds with regards to how they would work. After i post my rules and sample role PMs we will most likely be able to clarify the situation, please bear with me for some time while i produce them (i will include both the automatic and activated versions)

[Farkran]

RULES

Borrowed and re-adjusted from Plotinus original ruleset.

• Follow all site rules.
  
  
• Mod color
  – My mod color is 000080. This is my favorite color and i ask you to not use it. If this is difficult to read, please let me know and will use a different shade.
  
• Behavior
  - Don’t be a dick. This is a heated game but toxicity will not be tolerated. Attack the play not the player. If your fellow players tell you to stop, you must stop. If you do not stop, I will tell you to stop. If you still do not stop, you will be force-replaced. Asking people to stop voting you or to stop scumhunting you entirely doesn't count for this rule and you may find yourself lynched if you try it.
  
• Don't talk about ongoing games
  - You may not talk to each other about this game outside of threads I have created for this purpose. You may not talk about other ongoing games in this thread. Guidelines about what is acceptable and what is not can be found here.
  
• Animated GIFs
  - are of the devil, but they are permitted behind spoilers if clearly labelled as such.
  
• Tiny text
  - is also of the devil, keep it 70+ please.
  
• Provable randomness
  - is against the rules. Saying that you rolled a dice is fine, using dice tags or random.org is not.
  
• Claiming scum
  - by yourself is fine. Claiming scum with another player is against the rules.
  
• Cryptography
  - is forbidden. Breadcrumbing is okay.
  
• Confirmation
  - You have 72 hours to confirm your role and your alignment, starting from the minute you received your role PM. Game will start sooner if at least 12 players confirms. Posting in a private topic counts as confirmation.
  
• Days
  - Day lasts 10 IRL days. Extensions may be granted if there are replacements or special circumstances at mod's discretion.
  
• Activity
  - You must post at least once every 48 hours or I will Prod you. You then have 24 hours to post in the game thread or I will replace you. A player who incurs into his 3rd Prod will be subject to replacement with no further notice. If you come back before I find a replacement, you can stay. Players can request me to Prod somebody early - exercise this right with caution. This will only count as an official prod if you don't post before you would have been due for a prod. If you haven't posted in the 24 hours before the thread is locked for night, you must reply to the night start PM or you will be replaced during the night.
  
• Vacation/Limited Access
  - If you need to be absent for longer than the Activity rules allow, you should declare V/LA in bold in the thread like this:
  @Mod: I will be v/la until Thursday
  . While you are V/LA, you will receive Prods once every 96 hours starting from your last post in this game. If you have not posted game advancing content in 6 days, regardless of V/LA status, you will be replaced.
  
• Prodging
  - A naked "prod dodge" does not reset the prod timer. To avoid being prodded/replaced for inactivity, include some game advancing content in your prodges, such as "got prodded; xxxx is still scum."
  
• Quoting
  - You may not quote (or copy paste) any private information into the thread, including your role PM and any mod communication.
  
• Voting
  - Votes must be in the format VOTE: Farkran, which is used as VOTE: Farkran[/ vote]. Please use
  bolded
  text to communicate with the mod in the game thread, not for voting. If i notice a bolded vote, i will not count it but the user will be informed that it does not count as a vote. There is a chance that i do not notice it though, please exercise caution with your voting. If you need to UNVOTE: , you can use the UNVOTE: [/ unvote] tags.
  
• Lynching
  - Days end early when a simple majority of players (50% of living players + 1 rounded down) vote to lynch somebody. If a majority is not reached at deadline or if a majority of the players vote for no lynch, the day will end without a lynch. At evens, 50% is sufficient for no lynch.
  
• Twilight
  - Begins when a majority is reached and lasts until I lock the thread. You're still alive until I flip you so you can talk in any game threads you have access to until then, but no votes or unvotes will be counted.
  
• Night
  - Night lasts at least 48 hours. The night phase can be shortened if every living player -- even those with no night actions -- agrees to it by sending a PM to me stating that you want to have a
  Fast Night
  .
  
• Daytalk
  - All Private Topics for this game always have Daytalk.
  
• Action submissions
  - You may submit actions via PM (if town) or PT (if scum). If the actions are not submitted by the deadline then you do nothing. You can change your mind as many times as you like before the deadline.
  *]
  Action resolution
  - All actions use Natural Action Resolution.
  
• Notes PT
  - Let me know if you want a private thread to store your thoughts and feedback for the other players. This thread will be made public immediately after the game. You may draft posts in your notes PT but you may not talk about your notes PT in public. You definitely may not use the notes PT to demonstrate that you've had a town mindset in private all along; just put your town mindset in public to begin with and keep your notes to yourself.
  
• Play to win
  - this particular game, not some future one, and keep it fun!

---

---

Spoiler: Role PMs

Mafia Odd-Night Rolecop

Welcome!

You are a

Mafia Odd-Night Rolecop

. Your teammates are [redacted name], the [redacted role] and [redacted name], the [redacted role]. Your Scum PT is [redacted URL].

You may target one player per odd-numbered night phase (i.e. Night 1, Night 3, Night 5, etc). At the end of the night phase, you will be informed of their role but not their alignment.

You win when the Town has been eliminated, or nothing can stop this from occurring.

The game thread is ]here.

Confirm by replying with your role name and alignment or by posting in your PT.

Town Cop

Welcome!

You are a

Mafia Multitasking Compulsive Fruit Vendor

. Your teammates are [redacted name], the [redacted role] and [redacted name], the [redacted role]. Your Scum PT is [redacted URL].

You

must

target one player per night phase. At the end of the night phase, your target will be informed that they received a fruit (but not who sent it).

Since your Fruit Vendor action is

Compulsive

, note that the following Normal Guidelines are in effect:

A compulsive role, when they confirm, must include an ordered list of all players in the game. If they ever fail to submit an action, their action must be resolved as targeting the first player on that list that is still alive. They are allowed to change the order of the list at any time, e.g. if they think they might accidentally fail to submit a night action. This is done to ensure that compulsive roles can have an action chosen non-randomly for them in the event that they fail to submit.

Since you are

Multitasking

, you may perform all your night actions simultaneously, including the factional kill.

You win when the Town has been eliminated, or nothing can stop this from occurring.

The game thread is ]here.

Confirm by replying with your role name and alignment or by posting in your PT.

Mafia Backup Odd-Night Rolecop

Welcome!

You are a

Mafia Backup Odd-Night Rolecop

. Your teammates are [redacted name], the [redacted role] and [redacted name], the [redacted role]. Your Scum PT is [redacted URL].

You have no active abilities now, but you will gain the Odd-Night Rolecop abilities in the event that a Rolecop dies. If this happens, your ability will read as following:

You may target one player per odd-numbered night phase (i.e. Night 1, Night 3, Night 5, etc). At the end of the night phase, you will be informed of their role but not their alignment.

You win when the Town has been eliminated, or nothing can stop this from occurring.

The game thread is ]here.

Confirm by replying with your role name and alignment or by posting in your PT.

Town Tracker

Welcome!

You are a

Town Tracker

.

You may target one player per night phase. At the end of the night phase, you will be informed what player or players they targeted with their action, if any. If your action fails for any reason (i.e. roleblock, etc), you will receive a

No Result

result. Note that this is different than a

The player did not visit anyone

result.

You win when all threats to the Town have been eliminated.

The game thread is ]here.

Confirm by replying with your role name and alignment.

Town Doctor

Welcome!

You are a

Town Loud Jailkeeper

.

You may target one player per night phase. This player will be protected from all kills during that night phase, but will also be unable to take any action during that night. You cannot target yourself. In case of conflict, common roleblocks take precedence over jailkeeping, and scum roleblocks take precedence over town roleblocks.

Since you are

Loud

, the target of your night action will be informed that you targeted them, but they will not know what action you have taken.

You win when all threats to the Town have been eliminated.

The game thread is ]here.

Confirm by replying with your role name and alignment.

Town 1-shot Simple Loyal Neighborizer

Welcome!

You are a

Town 1-shot Simple Loyal Neighborizer

.

Once per game

, at night, you may target one player. If this player

is a Vanilla Townie

and

has the same alignment that you have

, you and them will be able to communicate in a Private Topic for the rest of the game, at any time while you are alive.

One shot will be consumed

if you decide to use your ability, whether the action succeeds or fails for any reason.

You win when all threats to the Town have been eliminated.

The game thread is ]here.

Confirm by replying with your role name and alignment.

Town 2-shot Activated Bulletproof

Welcome!

You are a

Town 2-shot Activated Bulletproof

.

Twice per game

, at night, you may Activate your Bulletproof ability. If you do so, you will be protected from all kills during that night phase.

One shot will be consumed

if you decide to use your ability, even if you are blocked or if you are not targeted for a kill.

You win when all threats to the Town have been eliminated.

The game thread is ]here.

Confirm by replying with your role name and alignment.

Town 1-shot Bulletproof

Welcome!

You are a

Town 1-shot Bulletproof

.

You are automatically protected from the

first

kill that targets you. This effect takes precedence over any other kind of protective ability, so it will be consumed as soon as you are targeted for a kill.

You win when all threats to the Town have been eliminated.

The game thread is ]here.

Confirm by replying with your role name and alignment.

Vanilla Townie

Welcome!

You are a

Vanilla Townie

.

You have no special abilities.

You win when all threats to the Town have been eliminated.

The game thread is ]here.

Confirm by replying with your role name and alignment.

[Farkran]

I couldn't find consistent info about NAR on bulletproof and jailkeeper vs roleblockers, so i used my own rules. Those might push the setup into a more scumsided area, and may be changed in favor of town for balance purposes. My role PMs are a bit verbose but should cover all cases. If i missed anything, please let me know!

[implosion]

One random thing I noticed:

"If this player is a Vanilla Townie and has the same alignment that you have,"

TEECHNICALLY this should probably say "is the vanilla role for their alignment and has the same alignment that you have", since you're trying to split it into the simple part and the loyal part, and this is what simple is.

[implosion]

Also see here.

[Farkran]

One random thing I noticed:

"If this player is a Vanilla Townie and has the same alignment that you have,"

TEECHNICALLY this should probably say "is the vanilla role for their alignment and has the same alignment that you have", since you're trying to split it into the simple part and the loyal part, and this is what simple is.

Thanks for the insight, i will correct the description, although it wouldn't change the implementation of this specific instance of the role - basically, it should paraphrase to: "if you target a vanilla townie you neighborize them, otherwise you don't". You will not be able to neighborize a Mafia Goon, or a town PR, under any circumstance.

Also see here.

That's where i looked but i couldn't find anything about, say, a bulletproof who is also protected by a doctor; or a roleblocker that blocks a jailkeeper that jailkeeps that same roleblocker. If the standard rules are different than my own, please let me know.

[Farkran]

Town 1-shot Simple Loyal Neighborizer

Welcome!

You are a

Town 1-shot Simple Loyal Neighborizer

.

Once per game

, at night, you may target one player. If this player

is a Vanilla Townie

, you and them will be able to communicate in a Private Topic for the rest of the game, at any time while you are alive.

One shot will be consumed

if you decide to use your ability, whether the action succeeds or fails for any reason.

You win when all threats to the Town have been eliminated.

The game thread is ]here.

Confirm by replying with your role name and alignment.

New description - i went for the less verbose option