Not Known 15's Mini Normal Review, June (solidly) 2020

[implosion]

3

Vanilla Townies

3

Mafia Goons

Town 1-shot Motion Detector

Town Ninja 1-shot Roleblocker

Town Activated Innocent Child

Town Ascetic Disloyal Ninja Babysitter

Town Innocent Child

Town Non-Consecutive Night Bodyguard

Town Vanilla Cop

Vanilla Townie

You are a Vanilla Townie.

You have no active abilities.

You win if all threats to the town are eliminated and at least one town-aligned player is alive.

Confirm by replying to this PM with a summary of your role.

Mafia Goon

You are a Mafia Goon.

Your team-mates are

name

and

name

. You may talk to them

here

at any time.

Each night, if no other member of your faction is performing this action, you may target a player. Assuming no interference with your action, that player will die.

You win if at least one mafia member is alive and all other players are dead (or if nothing can prevent the same).

Confirm by replying to this PM with a summary of your role.

Town 1-shot Motion Detector

You are a Town 1-shot Motion Detector.

Once in the game at night, you may target a player. Assuming no interference with your action, you will learn if there was any motion on that player tonight. Any visible visit from or towards your target is motion.

You win if all threats to the town are eliminated and at least one town-aligned player is alive.

Confirm by replying to this PM with a summary of your role.

Town Ninja 1-shot Roleblocker

You are a Town Ninja 1-shot Roleblocker.
Your actions are not visible to Tracker-like and Watcher-like roles.

Once in the game at night, you may target a player. Assuming no interference with your action, that player's active abilities will be blocked that night.

You win if all threats to the town are eliminated and at least one town-aligned player is alive.

Confirm by replying to this PM with a summary of your role.

Town Activated Innocent Child

You are a Town Activated Innocent Child.
At any time, you may choose to be confirmed as town-aligned.

You win if all threats to the town are eliminated and at least one town-aligned player is alive.

Confirm by replying to this PM with a summary of your role.

Town Ascetic Disloyal Ninja Babysitter

You are a Town Ascetic Disloyal Ninja Babysitter.

Your actions are not visible to Tracker-like and Watcher-like roles. Your night actions will be blocked if used on players who belong to the same faction as you. Actions that target you, other than kills, will fail as if roleblocked.

Each night, you may target one player. That player will be protected from one direct kill, but will die if you are killed.

You win if all threats to the town are eliminated and at least one town-aligned player is alive.

Confirm by replying to this PM with a summary of your role.

Town Innocent Child

You are a Town Innocent Child.
At the start of the game you will be confirmed as being town aligned.
You have no active abilities.

You win if all threats to the town are eliminated and at least one town-aligned player is alive.

Confirm by replying to this PM with a summary of your role.

Town Non-Consecutive Night Bodyguard

You are a Town Non-Consecutive Night Bodyguard.

At night, you may target someone to prevent one kill. If you do, you die instead. You may not attempt to use this ability two nights in a row.

You win if all threats to the town are eliminated and at least one town-aligned player is alive.

Confirm by replying to this PM with a summary of your role.

Town Vanilla Cop

You are a Town Vanilla Cop

Each Night, you may target a player. Assuming no interference with your action, you will learn if their role is Vanilla.

You win if all threats to the town are eliminated and at least one town-aligned player is alive.

Confirm by replying to this PM with a summary of your role.

Welcome to my Mini Normal.

Rules:
1.Follow the Site Rules. This includes not talking about ongoing games.
2.You may have access to private threads (e.g. Mafia factional chat); you can talk about this game there, but you may not quote anything from them outside of the PT. You may not quote any game-related PMs without express permission by your game mod.
3.Play to win this game.
4.Lurking: You will be prodded after 2 days of no substantial contribution(no prod dodging). After 24 hours of an unanswered prod I will search for a replacement(unless V/LA). Four prods in total, or two prods in one day will result in an instant replacement. ASK FOR REPLACEMENT IN A PM.
5.Vacation/Limited Access: Tell me when you are going to have limited access. If you have limited access, you will still count as having a prod after 3 days, and you will be instantly replaced after 5 days in total.
6.Weekend: For the purposes of prods and nights, Sunday and Saturday count as 12 hours each.
7.CHEATING:Cheating(breaking site rules, posting while dead, quoting Role PM's without explicit permission, encrypting posts without explicit permission, editing/deleting posts without explicit permission, doing anything obviously against the spirit of the rules) is forbidden. Don't do it.
Setup information:

8.Length of day phases:7 days. More if replacements force me to extend the phase.
9.Length of nights: 2 days. Will usually not end before all replacements are finished.

10. Lynching:A lynch necessiates more than 50% of all possible votes. You may vote for No Lynch. A No Lynch needs 50% of all possible votes.

11:Hammer:As soon as the required number of people for a Lynch or NoLynch is reached, the game descends into Twilight.
12:Twilight:Alive people, including the hammered lynch target, may continue to post until the flip.
13:Flip: After the flip the game descends into Night.
14:Daychat: Every evil faction has daychat by default.
15:Natural Action Resolution applies. Same priority cycles are resolved by making all actions of the same priority fail(e.g.Roleblocker vs Roleblocker, only both roleblocks fail).
16:Color, Backup Mod color and Vanilla Role PM:

Vanilla Townie

You are a Vanilla Townie.

You have no active abilities.

You win if all threats to the town are eliminated and at least one town-aligned player is alive.

Confirm by replying to this PM with a summary of your role.

At least one person recieved this Role PM.

This is my color

#BF8080). Do not use it.
17:Breaking rules can result in any kind of punishment. Do not break the rules.
18:I may add additional rules at my discretion. I will tell everyone via PM if this happens.

Results:
Vanilla Cop on VT, not blocked-> Vanilla.
Vanilla Cop on MG, not blocked-> Vanilla.
Vanilla Cop, blocked(Roleblocker, Ascetic) -> No Result.
Vanilla Cop, on power role -> Not Vanilla.
Motion Detector, blocked(Roleblocker, Ascetic) -> No Result.
Motion Detector, not blocked, target visited by non-ninjas, target(not Ninja) visited someone ->Motion detected.
Motion Detector, not blocked, target visited by non-ninjas ->Motion detected.
Motion Detector, not blocked, target(not Ninja) visited someone ->Motion detected.
Motion Detector, not blocked, no detectable visits from or towards the target ->No motion detected.

[implosion]

Primary: Flavor Leaf
Secondary: northsidegal

[Not Known 15]

ego

[northsidegal]

ego

to be completely honest with you before i've even really analyzed the setup i already do not like the fact that there are only 3 vanilla townies

[northsidegal]

going to look at it more and try to give better feedback later when i have more time

[Flavor Leaf]

So I feel like you were going for sort of a “town’s got a lot of power they’ll end up suspicious of each other”, but I just feel Mafia’s pretty weak.

Disloyal Ninja Babysitter, while I like the idea of Babysitter dying and nobody else dying with them, and bodyguard could potentially save a Mafia member, and have some wacky things going on, I just feel like Mafia have multiple ways of getting the short end of the stick. I would definitely not be happy if I was scum in this game post game.

That’s just my immediate reaction. I’m doing errands today, so I’ll look into this more tomorrow probably, but I wanted to get something out.

[Not Known 15]

“town’s got a lot of power they’ll end up suspicious of each other”,

Town 1-shot Motion Detector
Town Ninja 1-shot Roleblocker
Town Activated Innocent Child
Town Ascetic Disloyal Ninja Babysitter
Town Innocent Child
Town Non-Consecutive Night Bodyguard
Town Vanilla Cop

Yes and no. Town does not have a lot of power, actually. They have a lot of power roles yes, but....
let`s see...
The Motion Detector could be useful. It is 1-shot, though, so it needs to visit the killing scum at the right point. It could be disrupted even then. It could make someone inno late if theres only one mafia but that means it needs to survive until then. It is also definitely not confirmed town based on role.
The Roleblocker isnt confirmed town based on role, and whilst it can help town by roleblocking the killing scum it could also backfire and roleblock a town power role.
The Activated Innocent Child is a medium power role. It can confirm itself at any time, so it isnt out in the open early. It is also a forced kill.
The IC is a forced kill, and it is conftown from the start which means no one will waste their time to look into their alignment.
The ADNB is not conftown, might out themselves as Ascetic, and has only one job: Crumb their target upon death which leaves town with a conftown... unless theres a rolestopper of course... or a dead scum. However, the second isnt that good unless the roleblocker also hits scum which means scum played ... not so good. Forces a kill, potentially.
The Bodyguard is a potential forced kill. If it fails to protect it is also a likely mislynch, though. Due to its modifier, it cant protect every night.
The Vcop hunts fakeclaims of the Mafia. If they dont fakeclaim it doesn`t help much, though. A Vcop is not really conftown by itself...
Ok, I can see where you are coming from - if you really think that there`s a tad too much town confirming power I can kick the ADNB out and replace it with a VT - it`s a role I like so I added it but it doesnt have to be in this setup.

[Not Known 15]

Any replies

[Flavor Leaf]

It's still a good amount of power compared to scum, but not overly overly, I understand what you're saying. The 2 Innocent Children essentially can end up like a mason pair, and 2 conf townies are a bit difficult to deal with.

You use Ninja to make it so the MD can never see the Babysitter, so nobody can confirm it, and he can only kill scum, but he can possibly give another conf townie.

I'm not trying to change your personal style, so I understand the type of games you like, I've played in multiple.

I guess I just don't really like the Vanilla Cop/Bodyguard, and think maybe they should just be Vanilla Townies.

If you really want the bodyguard, changing the bodyguard to a Simple Bodyguard, and giving the Motion Detector Non Consecutive instead of instead of 1 shot can have the combination of them act like a Vanilla Cop.

Is there a reason you want 2 IC's?

[Not Known 15]

It's still a good amount of power compared to scum, but not overly overly, I understand what you're saying. The 2 Innocent Children essentially can end up like a mason pair, and 2 conf townies are a bit difficult to deal with.

You use Ninja to make it so the MD can never see the Babysitter, so nobody can confirm it, and he can only kill scum, but he can possibly give another conf townie.

I'm not trying to change your personal style, so I understand the type of games you like, I've played in multiple.

I guess I just don't really like the Vanilla Cop/Bodyguard, and think maybe they should just be Vanilla Townies.

If you really want the bodyguard, changing the bodyguard to a Simple Bodyguard, and giving the Motion Detector Non Consecutive instead of instead of 1 shot can have the combination of them act like a Vanilla Cop.

Is there a reason you want 2 IC's?

I`d rather remove the ADNB than the bodyguard here, else a good IC doesnt make it past Day 1. Simple Bodyguard would be a horrible role in this setup. I could make the Vcop Night 1 to limit the damage it could possibly do(can only catch one fakeclaiming Mafia) which would end up with this:
4 Vanilla Townies
3 Mafia Goons
Town 1-shot Motion Detector
Town Ninja 1-shot Roleblocker
Town Activated Innocent Child
Town Innocent Child
Town Non-Consecutive Night Bodyguard
Town Night 1 Vanilla Cop
(I will provide roles if you are actually satisfied this works)
In this case, how well town does its night actions has consequences - town doing outstanding nightplay means that mafia need to be really good to have a chance, mafia being very good at dayplay will, however, still be a problem for town - and similarly bad dayplay by mafia is simply lethal to them, with 2 confirmables and one semi-confirmable role(the BG)
I can run that - if you agree.

[Flavor Leaf]

i didn't expect the Simple Bodyguard to be a popular decision but i think it would be super cool.

what is the purpose of the Ninja on the roleblocker?

I'll let NSG have some time to speak before I confirm. I'm not sure I'm there yet, but I think it's getting a lot closer.

[Not Known 15]

what is the purpose of the Ninja on the roleblocker?

Less noise for the Motion Detector, less credibility for the claim.

[northsidegal]

sorry, i don't really have a lot of kind things to say about this setup.

IC + bodyguard is a really stupid interaction that doesn't seem fun for anyone involved, except maybe the IC who gets to live another day? mafia probably aren't having fun and the bodyguard probably isn't having fun.

this setup seems fairly scumsided to me as well. let's call the IC, the activated IC and the bodyguard all confirmed innocents (because the bodyguard is most likely getting shot N1 just like a confirmed inno would). beyond that, there's basically nothing – 1-shot RB, MD and VC are all pretty much useless, and given the high amount of power roles scum can

easily

fakeclaim something and get away with it – if anything, a scum PR fakeclaim might be more believable just because the setup lacks any real powerful PR and so people would probably expect at least one.

[Not Known 15]

IC + bodyguard is a really stupid interaction that doesn't seem fun for anyone involved, except maybe the IC who gets to live another day? mafia probably aren't having fun and the bodyguard probably isn't having fun.

this setup seems fairly scumsided to me as well. let's call the IC, the activated IC and the bodyguard all confirmed innocents (because the bodyguard is most likely getting shot N1 just like a confirmed inno would). beyond that, there's basically nothing – 1-shot RB, MD and VC are all pretty much useless, and given the high amount of power roles scum can easily fakeclaim something and get away with it – if anything, a scum PR fakeclaim might be more believable just because the setup lacks any real powerful PR and so people would probably expect at least one.

Well, the Bodyguard does not have to protect the IC, if it is anti-town for example. They can also wait for better targets - they are nonconsecutive night for a reason.
The VC and MD aren`t useless if they are used in a specific set of circumstances(VC catching a fakeclaim, MD being used later to de-confirm a visit), nor is the RB... but if you seriously think town needs more power vs. fakeclaims I could make it a full Vanilla Cop again. Which is fine with me.

[Flavor Leaf]

Roleblock could block the night kill, which is a little more night power, but balance just goes to swing really.

That’s why I recommended Simple Bodyguard with MD because at least together they could do something. Simple BG is kind of silly, though, I admit.

I get what you were trying to do with the IC’s, but i feel it’s just better off as Masons, which makes Bodyguard less boring.

[Not Known 15]

Look, I can give town more power, like this:
4 Vanilla Townies
3 Mafia Goons
Town 1-shot Motion Detector
Town Ninja Roleblocker
Town Activated Innocent Child
Town Innocent Child
Town Non-Consecutive Night Bodyguard
Town Night 1 Vanilla Cop
However, I stand by my decision to have that Bodyguard AND the IC. The Bodyguard does not

have

to defend the (non-activated)IC after all. And Masons are simply bad at this player count, and mess up dayplay by introducing an informed minority aligned with the town.

[Not Known 15]

Do I have to change the non-activated IC/BG combination to get your approval?

[Not Known 15]

bump

[Flavor Leaf]

How're you feeling, NSG? It's something...but town can't really damn scum in any major way besides maybe blocking the kill.

NK15 usually has out there games anyways,

Ninja Roleblocker will come off as scummy anyways, but late game it can start confirming townies.
Town'll probably bite themselves on the foot, but the IC's kind of ease their overall punish.

Maybe a little bit of a gate on Ninja RB? Can still have it be even like Odd-Night/3 shot.

There's gonna be some swing and wacky stuff, but I think I'd only be upset in this game if I were playing scum, but I don't think scum can't do this by any means, they might even have the advantage.

[northsidegal]

yeah the bodyguard doesn't

have

to defend the IC but realistically there's basically no better situation that a bodyguard could find itself in than protecting a literally mod-confirmed innocent. any bodyguard who doesn't is guaranteed going to get asked "why didn't you protect the IC?" if they have to claim and any person who doesn't is likely to take flak. what i'm trying to say is that i don't think it's a very fun role to roll. (in general i don't think that bodyguard is a very fun role, but in this setup specifically it seems extra un-fun to me)

i'm still kind of awkward about even the idea of passing a 6 TPR setup. i don't enjoy being the one to stonewall people and say these things to them, but the normal queue is for... normal setups. more "out there" setups can be run in the theme queue. that being said, i'll evaluate the setup regardless.

i think that the exact same thing that i said earlier still applies. roleblocker really isn't all that strong a role for town. in this setup it doesn't have a lot of TPRs to block, but even still a roleblocker blocking a kill is equally as skill-intensive as a tracker tracking scum to the nightkill, and with less information returned – even if a tracker doesn't hit scum performing the NK it still gets information regardless, whereas a roleblocker doesn't. a roleblock is also a lot softer of a guilty than a tracker – in this setup a doctor or other protective is a pretty unlikely claim given the ICs so that's at least one interesting element, but something like a bulletproof, commuter, or hider fakeclaim from scum to counter is still possible (if, admittedly, unlikely).

here's are two rough proposals:

3 Mafia Goons

Town Night 1 Cop
Town Ninja Tracker
Town Odd-night Motion Detector
Town Activated Innocent Child
Town Innocent Child
5 Vanilla Townies


---

1 Mafia Informed // X is a 1-shot BP Innocent Child
2 Mafia Goons

Town Night 1 Vigilante
Town Ninja Roleblocker
Town Odd-night Vanilla Cop
Town 1-shot BP Innocent Child
Town Activated Innocent Child
5 Vanilla Townies

[northsidegal]

the second proposal keeps your desire of an IC living past d1 while not forcing some player to be the IC's bodyguard which isn't fun, and if the mafia decides they want the IC gone as soon as possible then the vig's claim looks more suspicious as there's only one kill that night.

still ambivalent on whether or not that's actually balanced although i think it's at least close, town roleblocker is kind of an odd role out there. like i said though, rough proposals

[Not Known 15]

i'm still kind of awkward about even the idea of passing a 6 TPR setup. i don't enjoy being the one to stonewall people and say these things to them, but the normal queue is for... normal setups. more "out there" setups can be run in the theme queue. that being said, i'll evaluate the setup regardless.

The minimum number of Vanilla Townies according to the Normal rules is 1. Of course that`s an absolute edge case, but...
I need time to think about your second idea(I skipped the first as soon as I saw "cop").

[northsidegal]

the maximum number of cakes that one could eat in an hour is probably in the hundreds, maybe thousands.

the minimum number of normal setups that i need to pass is zero.

getting close to edge cases isn't always a good idea.

[Flavor Leaf]

Change the Night 1 Cop to your bodyguard would be fine.

The 2nd one changes his initial setup to something completely different is all.

[Not Known 15]

Okay, the Night 1 Vigilante is definitely not a role I want to see in this setup at all. Night 1 reads are usually not terribly accurate and could easily hit the AIC or another town power role. Something I definitely do NOT want to occur.
How about...
5 Vanilla Townies
2 Mafia Goons
Town 2-shot Motion Detector
Town Ninja Roleblocker
Town Night 1-2, Night 4+ Non-Consecutive Night Vanilla Cop
Town Night 1 BP Innocent Child
Town Activated Innocent Child
1 Mafia Informed // X is a Night 1 BP Innocent Child.

Vanilla Townie

You are a Vanilla Townie.

You have no active abilities.

You win if all threats to the town are eliminated and at least one town-aligned player is alive.

Confirm by replying to this PM with a summary of your role.

Mafia Goon

You are a Mafia Goon.

Your team-mates are

name

and

name

. You may talk to them

here

at any time.

Each night, if no other member of your faction is performing this action, you may target a player. Assuming no interference with your action, that player will die.

You win if at least one mafia member is alive and all other players are dead (or if nothing can prevent the same).

Confirm by replying to this PM with a summary of your role.

Mafia Informed

You are a Mafia Informed.

Your team-mates are

name

and

name

. You may talk to them

here

at any time.

You know additional information about the setup:

name

is a Night 1 Bulletproof Innocent Child.

Each night, if no other member of your faction is performing this action, you may target a player. Assuming no interference with your action, that player will die.

You win if at least one mafia member is alive and all other players are dead (or if nothing can prevent the same).

Confirm by replying to this PM with a summary of your role.

Town 2-shot Motion Detector

You are a Town 2-shot Motion Detector.

Twice in the game at night, you may target a player. Assuming no interference with your action, you will learn if there was any motion on that player tonight. Any visible visit from or towards your target is motion.

You win if all threats to the town are eliminated and at least one town-aligned player is alive.

Confirm by replying to this PM with a summary of your role.

Town Ninja Roleblocker

You are a Town Ninja Roleblocker.
Your actions are not visible to Tracker-like and Watcher-like roles.

Each, you may target a player. Assuming no interference with your action, that player's active abilities will be blocked that night.

You win if all threats to the town are eliminated and at least one town-aligned player is alive.

Confirm by replying to this PM with a summary of your role.

Town Activated Innocent Child

You are a Town Activated Innocent Child.
At any time, you may choose to be confirmed as town-aligned.

You win if all threats to the town are eliminated and at least one town-aligned player is alive.

Confirm by replying to this PM with a summary of your role.

Town Night 1 Bulletproof Innocent Child

You are a Town Night 1 Bulletproof Innocent Child.
At the start of the game you will be confirmed as being town aligned.
You are protected from kills that target you on Night 1.

You have no active abilities.

You win if all threats to the town are eliminated and at least one town-aligned player is alive.

Confirm by replying to this PM with a summary of your role.

Town Night 1-2, Night 4+ Non-Consecutive Night Vanilla Cop

You are a Town Night 1-2, Night 4+ Non-Consecutive Night Vanilla Cop

Each Night, except Night 3, you may target a player. Assuming no interference with your action, you will learn if their role is Vanilla. You may not attempt to do this two nights in a row.

You win if all threats to the town are eliminated and at least one town-aligned player is alive.

Confirm by replying to this PM with a summary of your role.