Newbie 2010: Pride Month | Game Over

[gibus]

PT

[gibus]

I read Elmo's 1989 scum game and 2000 town game and noticed that town!AzN was aggressive with their votes (mobile) similar to their play here, while scum!AzN was much more static.
Does this hold any significance?

[Ghost Ganster]

@Ghost Ganster: Homura has been relatively inactive as town in previous games.

This is likely not going to be popular, but I don't care too much if they're town. Giving lurkers a pass is bad, in my opinion, even if meta is at play. It's just too good for scum.

She has yet to even vote, randomly or not.

@Homura, what are your scum-reads? Do consider using your vote as well, please.

[Raya36]

Thank you! How about I only promise to troll on even posts? Odd posts will be completely, utterly, deadly serious.

What site do you come from, and do you think anything alignment-indicative has happened so far?

I'd rather not say what site, sorry. It's not for mafia-related reasons, though.

As for alignment-indicative things (and I'll list some things that are very borderline, here, just to further discussion, get more opinions and reactions):

-Umlaut's voting, mirroring and immediately following mine twice, looks so fishy that they actually feel like town (like "scum wouldn't do this", which is a faulty assumption, but you get where I'm coming from, I think).

-I'm generally wary of statements of facts that in actuality are opinions, so #30 (Elmo's post), looks slightly scummy, even if it's a joke (which is not clear to me).

-Raya answering your question about the most efficient way of "consuming" time as town, and then not doing it, basically at all, is slightly scummy as well.

-Your inside joking/weird hinting/trolling makes me very paranoid that I'm just not gonna be able to get a read on you and/or that I'll get annoyed at you, which will affect my opinion of you in an unhelpful way. I think being useful and cooperative is a good town trait, and in the vast majority of cases, not being so is either scummy or just good for scum.

-Snowblaze having exactly zero reads... I wouldn't say it's necessarily indicative of an alignment, but once again it's unhelpful, so it does raise my suspicions. I'm of the opinion that having bad reads (whatever "bad" means) is better than having none, so I personally would

force

myself to get some (if you get what I mean) in her shoes. Thankfully I'm paranoid enough that it's never going to happen, most likely. XD

-Elmo's following post was scummy as well. Not the vote itself, but the lack of an explanation and especially the one-liner used ("You can't make Lylo"), which I find very weird to say at this stage of the game.

-Your post, #68, is helpful but worded scummily, or at least the lack of an acknowledgement that you and Umlaut could both be scum is.

-Elmo's post, #69, gives me town vibes. I'm not sure I agree with it (unless here scum often makes very early hammers happen and gets away with it later?), but it's something that's worth noting in general and in a newbie game especially, and I don't think scum would do it. I feel that he could have found/bullshitted other reasons to explain his vote on Snowblaze in that case.

-Elmo's posts #78 and #79, go back to irk me, simply because I would say the wagon

was

still random voting, because at the end of the day it was based on gibus' scumclaim joke. Maybe we just have a different definition of it, though? I would be interested in knowing. Personally, I would equate random voting with "baseless", and I would include joke-votes under "baseless" as well. Am I off here?

-Raya's questions and especially the prod to get an answer (so mainly post #82) gives me a town vibe.

-Tonally, everything piisirrational in this last page feels like scum. I can't really put my finger on why, or at least, I don't know how exactly to explain it. Ironically enough, I think it's something about the need to explain, over-explain or needlessly explain (and not making a great job of it).

-It can be a bit dangerous to get a town read from a post simply because you totally agree with it, but that's what's happened when I read Umlaut's post just now.

I'm curious about the newbies' past experience with Mafia here. Is this your first game? Did you play on another site first? Have you already played a game with anyone else in this one?

I played somewhat frequently for a while, a few years ago, on another site where mafia was more serious business than here. Or maybe it's just that the days were shorter so the levity lasted less by necessity? Either way, I'm still getting used to all the jokes, the in-site references and such. That was a one-way-ticket to lynch-town where I used to play! XD

Would you consider any of the joking to be AI in this game so far?

I answer this a little above, but to add something perhaps more precise, I'd say that hinting and muddying the waters is a surprisingly effective scum strategy, in my experience (it works in real life too! ).

It's concerning that you have reasons to scumread nearly everyone on the playerlist

[Raya36]

Strong town vibes from Ganster's 85.

And this is where I strongly disagree.

[Raya36]

Why is it scum oriented to jump on the biggest wagon?

Pi can you answer this?

It is not scum-oriented to jump on the biggest wagon. Town does that but only when they have a good case to push. Umlaut's post 27 of bringing someone to L-2 with the reasoning of "bigger wagons are nicer," especially after already putting down an RVS vote, seemed more likely to come from scum than from town, even if minorly so. And hence, gibus, why I find it to not be NAI.

@gibus: To me, a vote is "opportunistic" if the person casting the vote already has a vote on someone else, but decides to switch over to a bigger wagon with the same/worse justification of voting the bigger wagon compared to the one they already voted.

Why does town only do that when they have a good case?

[Raya36]

@Raya, how did your read on pie progress?

I'm getting the general vibe that they're not used to how RVS works on this site yet and reading too much into an RVS wagon. So I'm not seeing an agenda being pushed. Also the meta reads on them are making me lean town as well

[Raya36]

@Ghost Ganster: Homura has been relatively inactive as town in previous games.

This is likely not going to be popular, but I don't care too much if they're town. Giving lurkers a pass is bad, in my opinion, even if meta is at play. It's just too good for scum.

She has yet to even vote, randomly or not.

@Homura, what are your scum-reads? Do consider using your vote as well, please.

So do you consider lurkers as policy lynches?

[Elmo TeH AzN]

I read Elmo's 1989 scum game and 2000 town game and noticed that town!AzN was aggressive with their votes (mobile) similar to their play here, while scum!AzN was much more static.
Does this hold any significance?

No but if you want another game to look at 2000 where I self voted because town didn't do much.

[keyenpeydee]

Vote count 1.04

The Pansexual Flag

---

(2) Umlaut

- Snowblaze, piisirrational,

(2) piisirrational

- gibus, Umlaut,

(1) gibus

- Raya36,

(1) Ghost Ganster

- Hectic,

(1) Snowblaze

- Elmo TeH AzN,

(1) Homura

- Ghost Ganster,

(1) Not Voting

- Homura,

MOD NOTES

: Good luck to everybody!
With

9

alive, it takes

5

to lynch. Day One will end in

(expired on 2020-06-21 10:30:00)

.
#BlackLivesMatter

[Snowblaze]

@Ghost Ganster:

Could you explain why you want me dead? And why you think Umlaut is town?

Can you answer this please? And why didn't you answer when responding to my point about Homura earlier?

Fixed the quote - MOD

[Snowblaze]

Welp, messed up the quotes. Oops.

[Hectic]

Hi, I'll be able to catch up and tackle this tonight. My vote is wasted on Ghost Ganster though.

VOTE: Homura

What did you do wrong?

[Umlaut]

Feels like pi town.

I'm going to really need you to explain this because I don't see it at all.

VOTE: Snow

Feels like you are trying really hard right now

This is the lamest excuse for a vote I've seen all game, and I used "Wagons are nice"

twice.

Why are you getting defensive at a vote?

VOTE: Snow

Feels like you are trying really hard right now

...how does that make me scum? I’m just throwing out whatever thoughts I have at the moment.

This just felt panicked. Odds are I'm wrong or they are frustrated. But to flip out over one vote just didn't feel right.

And these followups are just as bad. Panicked, really?

"You're scummy because you're trying too hard"
"Wait, why is trying hard scummy?"
"Damn you're shook"

Snow and Elmo can't be scum together. Leaning town on Snow.

Somewhat agree on the first part but I don't really have any meaningful read on Snow. Why town?

@Ghost Ganster: Homura has been relatively inactive as town in previous games.

This is likely not going to be popular, but I don't care too much if they're town. Giving lurkers a pass is bad, in my opinion, even if meta is at play. It's just too good for scum.

She has yet to even vote, randomly or not.

@Homura, what are your scum-reads? Do consider using your vote as well, please.

Good post (though I maybe agree with the second part more than the first; I definitely do care if they're town.)

Not sure how to feel about Raya's white-knighting me in 105. It seems from the next post that they don't actually think Pi is scum so I'm not sure what else that post could be trying to accomplish. Still leaning scum on Pi notwithstanding Snow's meta point there, also Elmo after that ridiculous push on Snow. Ganster is still my favorite for town.

[Homura]

I'm going to really need you to explain this because I don't see it at all.

Meta read. Actually feels townier than his town game. Wording of "that was something that just stuck out" (75) feels good.

[Homura]

@Ghost Ganster: Homura has been relatively inactive as town in previous games.

This is likely not going to be popular, but I don't care too much if they're town. Giving lurkers a pass is bad, in my opinion, even if meta is at play. It's just too good for scum.

She has yet to even vote, randomly or not.

@Homura, what are your scum-reads? Do consider using your vote as well, please.[/quote]
Feel one of Snow and Elmo is scum. pi and Umlaut likely town. Your reasoning about me is ill-formed but not necessarily scum-indicative.

[Homura]

This is likely not going to be popular, but I don't care too much if they're town. Giving lurkers a pass is bad, in my opinion, even if meta is at play. It's just too good for scum.

She has yet to even vote, randomly or not.

@Homura, what are your scum-reads? Do consider using your vote as well, please.

EBWOP —

Feel one of Snow and Elmo is scum. pi and Umlaut likely town. Your reasoning about me is ill-formed but not necessarily scum-indicative.

[Homura]

It's concerning that you have reasons to scumread nearly everyone on the playerlist

Where are you seeing "scumread nearly everyone" from? Post seems like general thoughtposting with both town and scum reads.

[Ghost Ganster]

@Ghost Ganster:

Could you explain why you want me dead? And why you think Umlaut is town?

Can you answer this please? And why didn't you answer when responding to my point about Homura earlier?

Fixed the quote - MOD

Sorry about that. I read that and thought it was meant for one of the people making a case against and voting for you.
I listed you as one of my preferred lynches because of your lack of reads, pressuring and scum-hunting, and related attitude. Basically, it's very possible you're scum, but even if you're not, your play thus far would make your mislynch not as bad as most others' would be, in my eyes.

I hope this doesn't offend you, as that's not my intention. I'd just like you (and everyone else) to be more proactive and useful.

As for Umlaut, he's the one I got the most town tells on, and perhaps more importantly at this point in time, a similar opinion as, like I explained in my earlier post.

@Ghost Ganster: Homura has been relatively inactive as town in previous games.

This is likely not going to be popular, but I don't care too much if they're town. Giving lurkers a pass is bad, in my opinion, even if meta is at play. It's just too good for scum.

She has yet to even vote, randomly or not.

@Homura, what are your scum-reads? Do consider using your vote as well, please.

So do you consider lurkers as policy lynches?

Can you explain what "policy lynches" means, sorry?

This is likely not going to be popular, but I don't care too much if they're town. Giving lurkers a pass is bad, in my opinion, even if meta is at play. It's just too good for scum.

She has yet to even vote, randomly or not.

@Homura, what are your scum-reads? Do consider using your vote as well, please.

EBWOP —

Feel one of Snow and Elmo is scum. pi and Umlaut likely town. Your reasoning about me is ill-formed but not necessarily scum-indicative.

What makes you say... basically all of that?
-Why do you feel one of Snow and Elmo is scum? Why aren't you voting for one of them? Why aren't you doing something to see if you can clarify your either/or opinion of them with questions, pressure and such?
-Why are piisirrational and Umlaut likely town?
-Why do you think my reasoning about you is ill-informed and non necessarily scum-indicative?

[piisirrational]

Why is it scum oriented to jump on the biggest wagon?

Pi can you answer this?

It is not scum-oriented to jump on the biggest wagon. Town does that but only when they have a good case to push. Umlaut's post 27 of bringing someone to L-2 with the reasoning of "bigger wagons are nicer," especially after already putting down an RVS vote, seemed more likely to come from scum than from town, even if minorly so. And hence, gibus, why I find it to not be NAI.

@gibus: To me, a vote is "opportunistic" if the person casting the vote already has a vote on someone else, but decides to switch over to a bigger wagon with the same/worse justification of voting the bigger wagon compared to the one they already voted.

Why does town only do that when they have a good case?

I think it would be most probable for town to only vote for someone and bring them close to a lynch (like L-2 or L-1) if they 1) actually think the person is scum to avoid something like an early hammer or 2) does so to get information. They'd need a good explanation in either case, whether it be to convince other people to move their vote over or to explain the reasoning behind the information they're getting out of putting someone at, for example, L-2.

[piisirrational]

@Ghost Ganster: Policy lynches are those lynches where one doesn't necessarily think that someone is scum, but wants to lynch the person because they think that their play will hurt the town later on.

[piisirrational]

Thank you! How about I only promise to troll on even posts? Odd posts will be completely, utterly, deadly serious.

What site do you come from, and do you think anything alignment-indicative has happened so far?

I'd rather not say what site, sorry. It's not for mafia-related reasons, though.

As for alignment-indicative things (and I'll list some things that are very borderline, here, just to further discussion, get more opinions and reactions):

-Umlaut's voting, mirroring and immediately following mine twice, looks so fishy that they actually feel like town (like "scum wouldn't do this", which is a faulty assumption, but you get where I'm coming from, I think).

-I'm generally wary of statements of facts that in actuality are opinions, so #30 (Elmo's post), looks slightly scummy, even if it's a joke (which is not clear to me).

-Raya answering your question about the most efficient way of "consuming" time as town, and then not doing it, basically at all, is slightly scummy as well.

-Your inside joking/weird hinting/trolling makes me very paranoid that I'm just not gonna be able to get a read on you and/or that I'll get annoyed at you, which will affect my opinion of you in an unhelpful way. I think being useful and cooperative is a good town trait, and in the vast majority of cases, not being so is either scummy or just good for scum.

-Snowblaze having exactly zero reads... I wouldn't say it's necessarily indicative of an alignment, but once again it's unhelpful, so it does raise my suspicions. I'm of the opinion that having bad reads (whatever "bad" means) is better than having none, so I personally would

force

myself to get some (if you get what I mean) in her shoes. Thankfully I'm paranoid enough that it's never going to happen, most likely. XD

-Elmo's following post was scummy as well. Not the vote itself, but the lack of an explanation and especially the one-liner used ("You can't make Lylo"), which I find very weird to say at this stage of the game.

-Your post, #68, is helpful but worded scummily, or at least the lack of an acknowledgement that you and Umlaut could both be scum is.

-Elmo's post, #69, gives me town vibes. I'm not sure I agree with it (unless here scum often makes very early hammers happen and gets away with it later?), but it's something that's worth noting in general and in a newbie game especially, and I don't think scum would do it. I feel that he could have found/bullshitted other reasons to explain his vote on Snowblaze in that case.

-Elmo's posts #78 and #79, go back to irk me, simply because I would say the wagon

was

still random voting, because at the end of the day it was based on gibus' scumclaim joke. Maybe we just have a different definition of it, though? I would be interested in knowing. Personally, I would equate random voting with "baseless", and I would include joke-votes under "baseless" as well. Am I off here?

-Raya's questions and especially the prod to get an answer (so mainly post #82) gives me a town vibe.

-Tonally, everything piisirrational in this last page feels like scum. I can't really put my finger on why, or at least, I don't know how exactly to explain it. Ironically enough, I think it's something about the need to explain, over-explain or needlessly explain (and not making a great job of it).

-It can be a bit dangerous to get a town read from a post simply because you totally agree with it, but that's what's happened when I read Umlaut's post just now.

I'm curious about the newbies' past experience with Mafia here. Is this your first game? Did you play on another site first? Have you already played a game with anyone else in this one?

I played somewhat frequently for a while, a few years ago, on another site where mafia was more serious business than here. Or maybe it's just that the days were shorter so the levity lasted less by necessity? Either way, I'm still getting used to all the jokes, the in-site references and such. That was a one-way-ticket to lynch-town where I used to play! XD

Would you consider any of the joking to be AI in this game so far?

I answer this a little above, but to add something perhaps more precise, I'd say that hinting and muddying the waters is a surprisingly effective scum strategy, in my experience (it works in real life too! ).

It's concerning that you have reasons to scumread nearly everyone on the playerlist

I don't get why this is concerning. Can you explain? To me, it looks like Ghost is just commenting on anything he finds to be AI. Just because someone does something scummy does not mean they're scum, because just everyone, regardless of their alignment, does scummy things. If there's things Ghost finds to be especially towny he's noting that as well. That post looks like Ghost is finding things other people are doing that are scummy/towny, but it doesn't look like he's actively forcing those explanations to scumread people, and I don't think he's actually scumreading over half of the playerlist.

[Homura]

What makes you say... basically all of that?
-Why do you feel one of Snow and Elmo is scum? Why aren't you voting for one of them? Why aren't you doing something to see if you can clarify your either/or opinion of them with questions, pressure and such?
-Why are piisirrational and Umlaut likely town?
-Why do you think my reasoning about you is ill-informed and non necessarily scum-indicative?

You'll be disappointed if you expected a full-length analysis of my reads at this point of the game. My reads are mainly tone so far.

Your reasoning is ill-formed because you advocated for a policy lynch on a player you labelled a lurker despite the game having gained little tread. Unless you pushed me as a reaction test (which, based on my gauge of your play in this game so far, I think is unlikely), your reasons for wanting to lynch me stem more frequently from newbtown wanting something to push. That's why I didn't think you're scum.

I dislike the style of interrogation you took with this post, however. The rapid-fire questioning feels unsubtle.

[Elmo TeH AzN]

@mod V/LA for the weekend

[keyenpeydee]

@mod V/LA for the weekend

Got it!