Micro 948: Noughts and Crosses Blitz [Game over!]

[GuiltyLion]

I agree we should lynch in the corners today

VOTE: GuiltyLion
I kind of agree. @Guilty; if you pointed out so many things, why did you default to voting for 2 people who haven't shown up?

because we are lynching in a corner today, and I find Dunnstral to be townie

[Clover Ebi]

Why do you feel like they're not genuine? I fully agree they are nitpicky, but it is early game. Finding reasons to scumread people is exactly what town should be doing!

I strongly disagree with this philosophy as a whole. I think everyone is town until proven otherwise. But even then, finding reasons for why people are scum is fine, but it feels like the reasons you're coming up with are reaches. I think the best way to put it is I don't think someone would have their expectations as high as you're acting like they are. Thinking Kanna is sus because she didn't say what those good points are right away or, the fact two people didn't post in a game right away. One of those points you can't even make a defense for. It's...off to me.

The "somewhat nod at is the one against myself" feels hilariously self-conscious scum. If you're town you should not find any reasoning against you to be good! Believable maybe, but why would you agree that your own posting is suspicious, instead of trying to correct me for why it is not?

This isn't what I was saying at all. The post against myself is something I can nod at because I understand it and the thought behind it, even if your reasoning is off in the first place. I don't think my posting is suspicious obviously. The post you made is 'true' that I was trying to stop people from making any type of scumread on Blair for her chart, that's why I can nod along. Do I think that's bad or AI? No, but that's not for me to decide.

It feels like he's nitpicking and trying to find reasons to scumread people

on this, I would also point you to see how I did not escalate or push further once Kanna gave me satisfying explanation! I think she is more likely town than scum after our exchange

While that is all fine and dandy that doesn't take away from your previous actions. Just because you call someone town doesn't mean the actions leading up to that townread can't be seen as off right?

Dunnstrals reaction to T-bone rubbed me the wrong way as well, but maybe I just don't like how defensive it was.

I also do not like this hedge! Do you see yourself voting Dunnstral today or not? Take a stand sir, this feels like giving yourself room to vote there later!

And what is wrong with having a hedge? I don't like a post by Dunnstral so I'm going to wait and see more of his posting. So in theory, yes you could say I am 'giving myself room' as you say. Taking a solid stand at the moment would simply be a lie and I see no reasn to pretend I have a solid stand on a player. Not all people can just get a read that easily.

[Clover Ebi]

Townreading one other corner while putting up some kind of scumread that the other two slots can't defend against as well. Am I the only one getting bad vibes from this whole thing? If I am, I'll back off so do let me know.

[Blair]

And what is wrong with having a hedge? I don't like a post by Dunnstral so I'm going to wait and see more of his posting. So in theory, yes you could say I am 'giving myself room' as you say. Taking a solid stand at the moment would simply be a lie and I see no reasn to pretend I have a solid stand on a player. Not all people can just get a read that easily.

This is so town it hurts.
P-edit:

Townreading one other corner while putting up some kind of scumread that the other two slots can't defend against as well. Am I the only one getting bad vibes from this whole thing? If I am, I'll back off so do let me know.

I didn't mind his scumread on the absent slots. It is difficult to defend against, but the absence of a reasonable defense doesn't make it a bad case - just an unfortunate case to have leveled against you.

I also agree with his Dunnstral read, so that's probably affecting my judgment.

His push on you feels awkward, though.

[GuiltyLion]

I think the best way to put it is I don't think someone would have their expectations as high as you're acting like they are. Thinking Kanna is sus because she didn't say what those good points are right away or, the fact two people didn't post in a game right away. One of those points you can't even make a defense for. It's...off to me.

I am not interested in whether or not one "can make a defense" for a point, I am interested in finding scum! I am going to pressure continue to pressure until I am satisfied I have done the best I can to create useful content to sort people and find reads I feel comfortable with.

I also cannot parse your first sentence here, the meaning escapes me. Whose expectations are you referring to, mine? And what about these "expectations" is not likely to come from a town!GuiltyLion?

Please do not handwave reasoning with vague meaningless statements like "this is off", that is how scum like to push mislynches! Either ask me questions to help you understand, or make an explicit claim for why you think my actions are indicative of my scum alignment. All I'm hearing from you here is "I didn't like your reasons for pressuring people", and I feel that is just as reach-y as "you confirmed and checked your role PM and didn't post", if not moreso, because it is

quite often

when playing mafia that you disagree or dislike reasoning that townies give.

The post you made is 'true' that I was trying to stop people from making any type of scumread on Blair for her chart, that's why I can nod along. Do I think that's bad or AI? No, but that's not for me to decide.

Ah but that's not at all why I pushed you? I said the specific phrasing you used when you talked about why we can't scumread Blair made it sound like your mindset was thinking in terms of justified reasons to push someone moreso than justified reasons to evaluate Blair's alignment.

It's actually a similar problem I have with your push on me! You say my reasons are "reaches", but that does not mean that I do not believe they are valid reasons to pressure people! If my beliefs are genuine, I am town, regardless of whether they're "justifiable" or not.

And what is wrong with having a hedge? I don't like a post by Dunnstral so I'm going to wait and see more of his posting. So in theory, yes you could say I am 'giving myself room' as you say. Taking a solid stand at the moment would simply be a lie and I see no reasn to pretend I have a solid stand on a player. Not all people can just get a read that easily.

If you don't have a read, why are you taking a "wait and see" approach instead of talking to Dunnstral directly yourself? Why throw out some vague shade but not bother to actually engage with or pressure Dunnstral? We have fewer than three days, time is not on our side.

Blair, I am v surprised you said this is "so town it hurts". It's super easy for scum to pretend to not have a read

[GuiltyLion]

Townreading one other corner while putting up some kind of scumread that the other two slots can't defend against as well. Am I the only one getting bad vibes from this whole thing? If I am, I'll back off so do let me know.

Why are you speaking for Maxwell and Rozyroz? They are entirely capable of defending themselves once they start playing!

[GuiltyLion]

Clover, I will also engage you on this front:

If I can show you many, many, many, town games where I, as town, pressure people within the first 3 pages for "reaches" or molehills, and additionally

get flak

for doing so much like you are doing here, will you concede that your point is NAI? Because I am confident that a simple meta search will back me up here

[maxwell]

as of this post, Maxwell AND rozyroz were both last seen online at 6:09 pm PST (my time), which was after day start at 5:50 PST, yet neither posted in the thread.

it's a little weird that they were both last online at literally the same minute, I'm wondering if that has to do with how the forum checks for activity, but regardless, both can be charged with seeing their day start PM and electing not to post in the thread! I find this suspicious!

VOTE: maxwell

Guilty as charged. I saw the day had started, saw it was early RVS, and decided to peace out until there was something more substantial. Normally I wouldn't mind messing around but I feel this setup needs to be played strategically so it's better for me to project Seriousness. I'm satisfied with what's been posted now to form reads, though. Going to start writing those up now.

[Clover Ebi]

I didn't mind his scumread on the absent slots. It is difficult to defend against, but the absence of a reasonable defense doesn't make it a bad case - just an unfortunate case to have leveled against you.

I see, I just don't really like how he's trying to paint something that seems entirely NAI as scummy. The only way this would turn into a point with merit in my eyes is if GuiltyLion had meta history on either of the slots pointing to them not enjoying scum, but even then other reasons can come up for not wanting to post in a game.

Whose expectations are you referring to, mine? And what about these "expectations" is not likely to come from a town!GuiltyLion?

What you expect from other people who are town. Posting reasons right away, checking your role pm and instantly posting. This even further proves my point in the same exact post you made.

Please do not handwave reasoning with vague meaningless statements like "this is off", that is how scum like to push mislynches!

This is just, well...wrong. Mafia isn't as black or white as you're trying to make it out to be. Just as the things you're trying to push as scummy are NAI at

best.

Can scum make simple statements like "this is off" yes, of course they can. But so can town. In fact scum are more to play in the perfect manner you're trying to judge people on than town! It's not suspicious if someone didn't fully explain something in one post. Nor is it suspicious if someone didn't post right away. As I said before, I think the bottom line is you're trying to make things out to be scummy that are by no means even close to being so.

Ah but that's not at all why I pushed you? I said the specific phrasing you used when you talked about why we can't scumread Blair made it sound like your mindset was thinking in terms of justified reasons to push someone moreso than justified reasons to evaluate Blair's alignment.

It's actually a similar problem I have with your push on me! You say my reasons are "reaches", but that does not mean that I do not believe they are valid reasons to pressure people! If my beliefs are genuine, I am town, regardless of whether they're "justifiable" or not.

Of course, no matter how wild and insane a theory is, if the actions of the player are something that are genuine and come from good faith it's much more important than what the theory is in the first place. However, I don't get that from you because the way you're acting and pushing is something I would expect from someone brand new at mafia. Not this!

If you don't have a read, why are you taking a "wait and see" approach instead of talking to Dunnstral directly yourself? Why throw out some vague shade but not bother to actually engage with or pressure Dunnstral?

Because I had/have nothing to say to Dunnstral. I saw no reason to ask him a baseless question that wouldn't help with my read on him All I want is for him to post more, and obviously he will.

Townreading one other corner while putting up some kind of scumread that the other two slots can't defend against as well. Am I the only one getting bad vibes from this whole thing? If I am, I'll back off so do let me know.

Why are you speaking for Maxwell and Rozyroz? They are entirely capable of defending themselves once they start playing!

I'm speaking about you here? I'm not defending them at all. I'm saying your stances are how I as a corner player would apporch this game as scum. Okay well, I didn't say that but It is.

[Clover Ebi]

Clover, I will also engage you on this front:

If I can show you many, many, many, town games where I, as town, pressure people within the first 3 pages for "reaches" or molehills, and additionally

get flak

for doing so much like you are doing here, will you concede that your point is NAI? Because I am confident that a simple meta search will back me up here

No this wouldn't really change my read on you.

Jeez I thought joining a smaller game would be less work than the larger one but I should've known from playing on MU how wrong I was

[Blair]

Blair, I am v surprised you said this is "so town it hurts". It's super easy for scum to pretend to not have a read

Yes scum can easily pretend not to have reads.

What I liked about that post was that you accused him of "hedging" (which usually carries a scum connotation) and instead of arguing about it, revising the narrative or, or making excuses he doubled and tripled down on the fact that he was hedging, even though he knew you would consider it scummy. It's a lack of self-consciousness that typifies most townies.

He could be powerwolfing I suppose, but it takes a certain sort of person to try to pull that off and I'm not persuaded that's what's happening here.

[maxwell]

Townreading one other corner while putting up some kind of scumread that the other two slots can't defend against as well. Am I the only one getting bad vibes from this whole thing? If I am, I'll back off so do let me know.

One quick thing before I get into this: Why would you back off just because nobody agrees with you? This makes it seem like you're looking for support, rather than having a real conviction.

[Clover Ebi]

Townreading one other corner while putting up some kind of scumread that the other two slots can't defend against as well. Am I the only one getting bad vibes from this whole thing? If I am, I'll back off so do let me know.

One quick thing before I get into this: Why would you back off just because nobody agrees with you? This makes it seem like you're looking for support, rather than having a real conviction.

Because this is a game of teamwork. If enough people told me I was simply tunneling and that I was wrong I want to be told so I can back off and rethink. You can have as much conviction or confidence in a read as you want, but that doesn't mean you get results.

[GuiltyLion]

I ammmm willing to reconsider Clover I think

not a fan of you casting me as a newbie tho I'll have you know I have played an

extensive

amount of games here over 5 years thank you

I haven't liked maxwell's posts so far

[maxwell]

I ammmm willing to reconsider Clover I think

What changed for you since #79?

[maxwell]

I put a lot of thought into the setup while I was waiting for the game to start and while I'll say more later, day 1 should be played for a long-term strategy. Getting strong townreads can basically win the game automatically. Still need to develop reads to get there, though so I'd rather see day 1 play out 'normally', I just ask that no one be put at L-1 because any quickhammer is severely damaging to the gamestate.

It's already way late here so I can't spend all night typing things up but I'll try to give some quick thoughts:

despite finding the reasoning in his last post somewhat odd, I actually like Clover as town here - his push on guiltylion feels genuine with the way he's investigating his stances rather than trying to push on something cheap.

I like that guiltylion actually bothered to investigate my activity, on first pass I thought he was town but on a reread didn't like his back and forth with clover as much. I'm tired so my thinking is not the best. Still shows more evidence of tying to be proactive than most.

If I could confidently townread Blair I'd declare the game to be won already, but I can't - the early excessive setup talk comes across as avoiding scumhunting, and felt like she hands out townreads too easily in #40 and #73.

Dunnstral has been fillery, devoid of content, with a rather awkward start. Don't see what other people are seeing in the townread there. I'll be reading Micro 639 to see if that's just his meta/if he's easy lynchbait, though.

T-Bone's opening was fillery/useless, lot of talk about the setup and past games. Do kind of like his empty vote on Dunn, though, becuase I didn't like his start either, but it does look off given he started the game similarly.

Kanna: really fillery start, plus a weak sheep of clover's vote on guiltylion while only committing to "I kind of agree" in #67. probably the scummiest of everyone who's posted.


Well, that took me too long and I'm not super happy with it, but I need to sleep.

[Blair]

I ammmm willing to reconsider Clover I think

not a fan of you casting me as a newbie tho I'll have you know I have played an

extensive

amount of games here over 5 years thank you

I haven't liked maxwell's posts so far

Who has played with GuiltyLion before? I have a question.

If GuiltyLion is scum, being perceived as a newbie when he is not is objectively an advantage - being underestimated where you are competent and overestimated where you are not is strategically ideal (insert vapid Tsun Zhu reference here).

GuiltyLion throws that advantage away here, ostensibly to defend his reputation as an experienced player.

Is GuiltyLion the kind of player who looks a gift horse in the mouth? I'm discounting all the WIFOM-fuel answers here in favor of either A.) he is not the sort of player who believes being underestimated is an advantage, or B.) he is that sort of player, but didn't mind tossing that advantage in the garbage here because he's town and doesn't care about that sort of thing.

(If the answer really is "C.) he knows it's an advantage but tossed it aside here for the even greater advantage of being townread by Blair for doing so" then please don't even answer - I don't need that kind of stress)

[Celeste]

How can you all be so cold? You are like pieces of rock candy. Did you even consider that I might want some scumreads too?

[Blair]

For Celeste:

Spoiler:

[Celeste]

@Guiltylion; (do you remember me, maybe?) it was mostly these

Yes, I do remember you, glad to see you again!

And I think I understand your point about how those posts changed your view, thank you for the clarification

Your initial qualm against the Innocent Child was her lack of specifying reasons. It seems she could've answered your question here in many ways as mafia, since there are plenty of reasonable posts to reference, yet we seem awfully happy to hand waive our previous suspicions now, don't we?

[Celeste]

For Celeste:

Spoiler:

Ah, are you paying tribute to me? How delightful...

[Celeste]

It feels like he's nitpicking and trying to find reasons to scumread people

on this, I would also point you to see how I did not escalate or push further once Kanna gave me satisfying explanation! I think she is more likely town than scum after our exchange

Hmhm. The more I hear from you, the worse of an impression I get!

[Celeste]

The excuse in 82 is very strange. You make such ugly noises when you overexplain, maxwell.

[Celeste]

Clover Ebi impresses me. He can be bumped up to a B-rank. Blair and T-Bone(27) are on C-ranks.

Meanwhile, maxwell and GuiltyLion can occupy the D-ranks, while Kanna(45) and Dunnstral sit comfortable in the E-ranks.

VOTE: Dunnstral

[GuiltyLion]

I ammmm willing to reconsider Clover I think

What changed for you since #79?

Mainly the way he obstinately stuck to a few points regarding the whole "it's too early to think things are scummy" attitude (which I still disagree with, but it's starting to feel more evident that he believes in it) and the way he flat out rejected that it would change his read because I can meta myself and show my aggressive nitpicking in plenty of past town games. That makes me think he genuinely isn't aware that I'm town.

Also Blair townreading him was kinda giving me a lil skeevy vibes too!