Newbie 2010: Pride Month | Game Over

[keyenpeydee]

Vote count 1.06

The Genderqueer Flag

---

(2) Elmo Teh AzN

- Snowblaze, Hectic,

(1) Umlaut

- piisirrational,

(1) piisirrational

- Umlaut,

(1) Homura

- Ghost Ganster,

(1) Ghost Ganster

- Raya36,

(1) Snowblaze

- Elmo TeH AzN,

(1) Raya36

- gibus,

(1) Not Voting

- Homura,

MOD NOTES

: Good luck to everybody!
With

9

alive, it takes

5

to lynch. Day One will end in

(expired on 2020-06-21 10:30:00)

.
#BlackLivesMatter

[Umlaut]

Losing interest in Pi, he seems like he could just be foot-in-mouth town. 121 in particular sort of reminds me of another player who is the sort of lynchbait I am way too prone to fall for.

VOTE: Elmo
I'm not thrilled with starting a wagon on someone immediately after they declare V/LA, but she's posted since then so I guess she's not completely absent.

[Raya36]

Not sure how to feel about Raya's white-knighting me in 105. It seems from the next post that they don't actually think Pi is scum so I'm not sure what else that post could be trying to accomplish. Still leaning scum on Pi notwithstanding Snow's meta point there, also Elmo after that ridiculous push on Snow. Ganster is still my favorite for town.

Are you sure you meant 105? I'm a bit confused

I meant 105, yes (but not so much in itself as because it's continuing to pursue the line of discussion starting with 76). You say Pi is town so you're not claiming his reasons are disingenuous, you're just trying to dissuade him from scumreading me. I don't think I've yet done anything so obvtown as to warrant that kind of defense, so where's it coming from?

Oh I see what you mean. I was never trying to dissuade him from scumreading you. I was just trying to get a better read on Pi. Which I did. I wasn't even thinking about you when asking it which is why I was confused at first

[Raya36]

Not sure how to feel about Raya's white-knighting me in 105. It seems from the next post that they don't actually think Pi is scum so I'm not sure what else that post could be trying to accomplish. Still leaning scum on Pi notwithstanding Snow's meta point there, also Elmo after that ridiculous push on Snow. Ganster is still my favorite for town.

Are you sure you meant 105? I'm a bit confused

I meant 105, yes (but not so much in itself as because it's continuing to pursue the line of discussion starting with 76). You say Pi is town so you're not claiming his reasons are disingenuous, you're just trying to dissuade him from scumreading me. I don't think I've yet done anything so obvtown as to warrant that kind of defense, so where's it coming from?

Oh I see what you mean. I was never trying to dissuade him from scumreading you. I was just trying to get a better read on Pi. Which I did. I wasn't even thinking about you when asking it which is why I was confused at first

And to add to that I don't think you're town or scum at the moment. Just null. I'm not trying to push Pi's read in any direction regarding you

[Umlaut]

Oh I see what you mean. I was never trying to dissuade him from scumreading you. I was just trying to get a better read on Pi. Which I did. I wasn't even thinking about you when asking it which is why I was confused at first

I guess that makes sense. I think it's good town play to keep questioning even players you think are town but I don't necessarily expect to see town actually do it even though they should, so it wasn't clear to me you were doing that.

(In response to your next post, I am most definitely town or scum)

[Raya36]

(In response to your next post, I am most definitely town or scum)

I'm glad you cleared that up for me

[Homura]

Could you explain how "one of Snow and Elmo is scum" could be based on tone, please? Also, would you consider at least mentioning/quoting the posts that tonally gave you those reads (and the town ones), or even just the main one for each?

And could you answer the questions "Why aren't you voting for one of them? Why aren't you doing something to see if you can clarify your either/or opinion of them with questions, pressure and such?"?

For Snow, I feel like she's taking a more cheery, airy tone with her posts that I find a little off-putting. Don't know what to think about the implication that she took for granted I'm town. I have also consistently misread her in our games, so slight paranoia plays a role as well.

Elmo's ISO in general feels like a collection of bad-faith pushes on players — don't enjoy her misconstruing Snow's post as overly defensive.

WRT to the second bit — my play has lessened in proactiveness since the quarantine. I tend to keep my cards close to my chest nowadays, because I lack the energy for thinking up questions that I can analyze critically. Consider this an excuse if you wish.

[Homura]

If you list all the players with a reason towards being scum (or unhelpful) you get:
Elmo
Raya
Hectic
Snowblaze
Piisirrrational

That's 5/8 players that Homura has to get a read on.
(There were some town points for some of the list too but it's still concerning since scum can do this to keep their options open or to look busy without making any committed reads)

You were referring to Ghost here?

[Homura]

Raya, thoughts on Ghost's push on me?

[Umlaut]

WRT to the second bit — my play has lessened in proactiveness since the quarantine. I tend to keep my cards close to my chest nowadays, because I lack the energy for thinking up questions that I can analyze critically. Consider this an excuse if you wish.

I can feel this, but it's no reason not to at least put down a vote. You've already said you feel one of Snow or Elmo are scum so how does it tip your hand to vote one of them?

[Snowblaze]

Surely if my tone is different to previous games when I was scum it should imply that I’m

not

scum.

And I don’t really see where I took it for granted that you were town. The closest I came to it was pointing out that you’ve played like this as town before, which isn’t the same thing as assuming you’re town here.

[Snowblaze]

Oooo An OMGUS vote and a vote from a person who sees me as scum

My vote wasn’t OMGUS, it was because I still don’t see why you find me suspicious.

[Snowblaze]

Right, I probably have enough to piece together some thoughts now.

In player list order:

Null on Homura. She’s been playing similarly to how I’ve seen her play as town before, but without experience of her scum game I don’t think that’s enough for a townread.

Slight town lean on gibus, for reasons stated earlier: I don’t think scum would necessarily want to draw that much attention.

I want to townread Hectic on the grounds that I agree with a lot of his thoughts so far, but for some reason he seems to be attracting all of my paranoia this game.

I’m conflicted on Ghost Ganster. On the one hand I like that he’s questioning everyone and trying to get the game moving... on the other hand, his stance on me is basically “I want to lynch you because you’re possibly scum and even if you’re not you’re less useful than others, but I’m still not going to vote for you”, which... I am not a fan of that logic.

@Ghost Ganster: do you think my lack of reads makes me more likely than average to be scum? And if so, why aren’t you voting for me?

Leaning town on pi. As I said with Homura, they’re playing similarly to their town game, and I can see where they’re coming from even though I don’t agree with all of their points.

Slight town lean on Raya, because I don’t really see scum deciding to go after Ghost here.

Solidly null on Umlaut, I don’t think I’ve really seen anything that pings me either way.

And I’ve already made my feelings on Elmo pretty clear.

[Ghost Ganster]

Raya, your scumread on GG doesn't sit well with me (bad faith, like Hectic says).

If I didn't get this wrong, the reason is that they have quite a few scumreads, which is likelier to come from scum to keep their options open, or to look busy without making any committed reads?
I'm curious to see how GG will respond to this, but doesn't this apply better to someone who has quite a few nullreads?

It looks to me like Raya is misinterpreting so many things that I'm left to wonder how much of that is artificial.

It's concerning that you have reasons to scumread nearly everyone on the playerlist

Where are you seeing "scumread nearly everyone" from? Post seems like general thoughtposting with both town and scum reads.

If you list all the players with a reason towards being scum (or unhelpful) you get:
Elmo
Raya
Hectic
Snowblaze
Piisirrrational

That's 5/8 players that Homura has to get a read on.
(There were some town points for some of the list too but it's still concerning since scum can do this to keep their options open or to look busy without making any committed reads)

First, the list came from a question about alignment-indicative things, which is not at all the same as scumreads. Second, unhelpful doesn't equal scum, and you had to specify it yourself so you know this as well, so your initial concern of me having too many scumreads should already be moot, and your list should go from 5 to 3 players (Elmo, Raya and piisirrational). Finally, like you mentioned as well, there were town points for 2 of those 3 as well in my list (Elmo and Raya) and this is in fact reflected in my later list of preferred lynches.

What do you mean with "that Homura has to get a read on"? How was she relevant in this?

Thank you! How about I only promise to troll on even posts? Odd posts will be completely, utterly, deadly serious.

What site do you come from, and do you think anything alignment-indicative has happened so far?

I'd rather not say what site, sorry. It's not for mafia-related reasons, though.

As for alignment-indicative things (and I'll list some things that are very borderline, here, just to further discussion, get more opinions and reactions):

-Umlaut's voting, mirroring and immediately following mine twice, looks so fishy that they actually feel like town (like "scum wouldn't do this", which is a faulty assumption, but you get where I'm coming from, I think).

-I'm generally wary of statements of facts that in actuality are opinions, so #30 (Elmo's post), looks slightly scummy, even if it's a joke (which is not clear to me).

-Raya answering your question about the most efficient way of "consuming" time as town, and then not doing it, basically at all, is slightly scummy as well.

-Your inside joking/weird hinting/trolling makes me very paranoid that I'm just not gonna be able to get a read on you and/or that I'll get annoyed at you, which will affect my opinion of you in an unhelpful way. I think being useful and cooperative is a good town trait, and in the vast majority of cases, not being so is either scummy or just good for scum.

-Snowblaze having exactly zero reads... I wouldn't say it's necessarily indicative of an alignment, but once again it's unhelpful, so it does raise my suspicions. I'm of the opinion that having bad reads (whatever "bad" means) is better than having none, so I personally would

force

myself to get some (if you get what I mean) in her shoes. Thankfully I'm paranoid enough that it's never going to happen, most likely. XD

-Elmo's following post was scummy as well. Not the vote itself, but the lack of an explanation and especially the one-liner used ("You can't make Lylo"), which I find very weird to say at this stage of the game.

-Your post, #68, is helpful but worded scummily, or at least the lack of an acknowledgement that you and Umlaut could both be scum is.

-Elmo's post, #69, gives me town vibes. I'm not sure I agree with it (unless here scum often makes very early hammers happen and gets away with it later?), but it's something that's worth noting in general and in a newbie game especially, and I don't think scum would do it. I feel that he could have found/bullshitted other reasons to explain his vote on Snowblaze in that case.

-Elmo's posts #78 and #79, go back to irk me, simply because I would say the wagon

was

still random voting, because at the end of the day it was based on gibus' scumclaim joke. Maybe we just have a different definition of it, though? I would be interested in knowing. Personally, I would equate random voting with "baseless", and I would include joke-votes under "baseless" as well. Am I off here?

-Raya's questions and especially the prod to get an answer (so mainly post #82) gives me a town vibe.

-Tonally, everything piisirrational in this last page feels like scum. I can't really put my finger on why, or at least, I don't know how exactly to explain it. Ironically enough, I think it's something about the need to explain, over-explain or needlessly explain (and not making a great job of it).

-It can be a bit dangerous to get a town read from a post simply because you totally agree with it, but that's what's happened when I read Umlaut's post just now.

I'm curious about the newbies' past experience with Mafia here. Is this your first game? Did you play on another site first? Have you already played a game with anyone else in this one?

I played somewhat frequently for a while, a few years ago, on another site where mafia was more serious business than here. Or maybe it's just that the days were shorter so the levity lasted less by necessity? Either way, I'm still getting used to all the jokes, the in-site references and such. That was a one-way-ticket to lynch-town where I used to play! XD

Would you consider any of the joking to be AI in this game so far?

I answer this a little above, but to add something perhaps more precise, I'd say that hinting and muddying the waters is a surprisingly effective scum strategy, in my experience (it works in real life too! ).

It's concerning that you have reasons to scumread nearly everyone on the playerlist

I don't get why this is concerning. Can you explain? To me, it looks like Ghost is just commenting on anything he finds to be AI. Just because someone does something scummy does not mean they're scum, because just everyone, regardless of their alignment, does scummy things. If there's things Ghost finds to be especially towny he's noting that as well. That post looks like Ghost is finding things other people are doing that are scummy/towny, but it doesn't look like he's actively forcing those explanations to scumread people, and I don't think he's actually scumreading over half of the playerlist.

This is a very town response. If Pi was scum I would expect them to either agree with me and scumread ghost or disagree with me and scumread me for pushing ghost or something. Instead Pi says that while something may appear scummy it doesn't mean the player is scum. This is a very towny outlook and with no scum agenda being pushed.

I already explained a bit a few posts up but essentially I'm worried that ghost is either trying to look busy without taking a solid stance on anyone or they're starting to set-up mislynches and keeping their options open.

This seems like it contradicts itself in a way. You say scum!piisirrational would have more likely agreed with your and scumread me or disagreed with you and scumread you, instead of writing what they did, which would make that post a candidate for "looking busy without taking a solid stance on anyone", which is then (essentially) the reason you're voting for me. Also how do you still post this,

You have a point about null reads but I think that applies much later on the game rather than 6 pages in. A lot of null reads this early is normal. A lot of scumreads this early doesn't sit well with me.

after liking piisirrational post, which comments on how my list was of AI-things and not scumreads and that scummy things can be found in town players as well?

Most importantly though, Raya, instead of "being wary" (which is conveniently vague) of that list of mine, why don't you go over its points and tell us what you think about them specifically? Even if it's just "this doesn't make sense to me", "this is scummy" or "this I could agree with", wouldn't that be so much more useful for everyone than just stopping at suspecting the whole thing?

[Ghost Ganster]

Could you explain how "one of Snow and Elmo is scum" could be based on tone, please? Also, would you consider at least mentioning/quoting the posts that tonally gave you those reads (and the town ones), or even just the main one for each?

And could you answer the questions "Why aren't you voting for one of them? Why aren't you doing something to see if you can clarify your either/or opinion of them with questions, pressure and such?"?

For Snow, I feel like she's taking a more cheery, airy tone with her posts that I find a little off-putting. Don't know what to think about the implication that she took for granted I'm town. I have also consistently misread her in our games, so slight paranoia plays a role as well.

Elmo's ISO in general feels like a collection of bad-faith pushes on players — don't enjoy her misconstruing Snow's post as overly defensive.

WRT to the second bit — my play has lessened in proactiveness since the quarantine. I tend to keep my cards close to my chest nowadays, because I lack the energy for thinking up questions that I can analyze critically. Consider this an excuse if you wish.

Okay, but did you consider that other players can analyze the answers to your questions anyway? You don't even necessarily have to be the one doing the analyzing (though that's always good). This is a team game. If you're town, you should be playing to help yourself

and

your teammates. So even if you can't follow up, asking questions, adding pressure, voting people, is always helpful.

Surely if my tone is different to previous games when I was scum it should imply that I’m

not

scum.

The fact you were scum in your game together wasn't in Homura's post. If it's true, then your point is very valid, the omission is scummy in itself, and her explanation for listing you as possible scum loses whatever little basis it already had (I'm not a huge fan of meta).

I want to townread Hectic on the grounds that I agree with a lot of his thoughts so far, but for some reason he seems to be attracting all of my paranoia this game.

Could you quote/link the thoughts you agree with?

@Ghost Ganster: do you think my lack of reads makes me more likely than average to be scum? And if so, why aren’t you voting for me?

Yes and, at the time, because I preferred lynching Homura.

[Snowblaze]

Yup. I like his thoughts on pi here:

turtle's 75: Scummy tone but the reasoning is fair.

81: I get what turtle is saying here. He's saying the wagon was made using reasons from RVS, rather than the wagon being made with reasons that came after RVS - which would normally have more substance and require more justification for a vote.

And I also agree with his assessment of the me/Elmo interaction (despite, or perhaps because of, my bias on that matter).

[gibus]

You have a point about null reads but I think that applies much later on the game rather than 6 pages in. A lot of null reads this early is normal. A lot of scumreads this early doesn't sit well with me.

To clarify: I'm scumreading you because of your SR, not because you have a lot of nullreads.

[Snowblaze]

@Ghost: ...so you preferred lynching Homura to me, and yet Homura was absent from your list of preferred lynches which you made in the same post as voting for Homura?

[Raya36]

If you list all the players with a reason towards being scum (or unhelpful) you get:
Elmo
Raya
Hectic
Snowblaze
Piisirrrational

That's 5/8 players that Homura has to get a read on.
(There were some town points for some of the list too but it's still concerning since scum can do this to keep their options open or to look busy without making any committed reads)

You were referring to Ghost here?

Yes

[Raya36]

Raya, thoughts on Ghost's push on me?

It's pretty bad to push a policy lynch on a lurker 5 pages into a game. The game has barely even started. I honestly think Ghost's list of scumreads was setting up mislynches and if any gained traction he would push that one.

[Raya36]

First, the list came from a question about alignment-indicative things, which is not at all the same as scumreads. Second, unhelpful doesn't equal scum, and you had to specify it yourself so you know this as well, so your initial concern of me having too many scumreads should already be moot, and your list should go from 5 to 3 players (Elmo, Raya and piisirrational). Finally, like you mentioned as well, there were town points for 2 of those 3 as well in my list (Elmo and Raya) and this is in fact reflected in my later list of preferred lynches.

What do you mean with "that Homura has to get a read on"? How was she relevant in this?

1. I use the word scumread since they're all reasons towards a scumread. I don't mean to imply that you scumread them. They're reasons to scumread.
2. I included unhelpful because to my understanding you're using that as a reason to lynch players as well.
3. I explained why I'm still concerned about that. It's an easy way for scum to look busy without taking a stance.

I'm just starting that there are 8 players total for you to get a read on so its ?/8 people you scumread.

This seems like it contradicts itself in a way. You say scum!piisirrational would have more likely agreed with your and scumread me or disagreed with you and scumread you, instead of writing what they did, which would make that post a candidate for "looking busy without taking a solid stance on anyone", which is then (essentially) the reason you're voting for me. Also how do you still post this,

I think you misinterpreted. I took a solid stance. Pi is town. I was just explaining why they arent scum when I said what scum!Pi wouldn't do.

after liking piisirrational post, which comments on how my list was of AI-things and not scumreads and that scummy things can be found in town players as well?

This is irrelevant. What Pi said was very town-indicative because no scum agenda was pushed and that was very clear. Your list of reads does not read the same.

Most importantly though, Raya, instead of "being wary" (which is conveniently vague) of that list of mine, why don't you go over its points and tell us what you think about them specifically? Even if it's just "this doesn't make sense to me", "this is scummy" or "this I could agree with", wouldn't that be so much more useful for everyone than just stopping at suspecting the whole thing?

I can do that later when I have my laptop if you want

[Ghost Ganster]

@Ghost: ...so you preferred lynching Homura to me, and yet Homura was absent from your list of preferred lynches which you made in the same post as voting for Homura?

Ah, now I get the misunderstanding. Homura was the only player missing from the list exactly because she had my vote, which basically implies she was at the top of it, otherwise I wouldn't have voted for her.

If you list all the players with a reason towards being scum (or unhelpful) you get:
Elmo
Raya
Hectic
Snowblaze
Piisirrrational

That's 5/8 players that Homura has to get a read on.
(There were some town points for some of the list too but it's still concerning since scum can do this to keep their options open or to look busy without making any committed reads)

You were referring to Ghost here?

Yes

So you're saying that it was a typo and the sentence should have read "That's 5/8 players that Ghost has to get a read on", right? I still don't understand it. And what you later say to explain it, so this,

I'm just starting that there are 8 players total for you to get a read on so its ?/8 people you scumread.

doesn't make sense, either, unless I'm being stupid (which could be, sorry).

Raya, thoughts on Ghost's push on me?

It's pretty bad to push a policy lynch on a lurker 5 pages into a game. The game has barely even started. I honestly think Ghost's list of scumreads was setting up mislynches and if any gained traction he would push that one.

First, it's lynch-voting, which I explained in the post in which I did it, is also a great way to pressure the lurker in question to stop lurking and being more active. But even ignoring the fact we disagree on the premise, how do you explain that I didn't push another, then? Elmo's, for example?

First, the list came from a question about alignment-indicative things, which is not at all the same as scumreads. Second, unhelpful doesn't equal scum, and you had to specify it yourself so you know this as well, so your initial concern of me having too many scumreads should already be moot, and your list should go from 5 to 3 players (Elmo, Raya and piisirrational). Finally, like you mentioned as well, there were town points for 2 of those 3 as well in my list (Elmo and Raya) and this is in fact reflected in my later list of preferred lynches.

What do you mean with "that Homura has to get a read on"? How was she relevant in this?

1. I use the word scumread since they're all reasons towards a scumread. I don't mean to imply that you scumread them. They're reasons to scumread.
2. I included unhelpful because to my understanding you're using that as a reason to lynch players as well.
3. I explained why I'm still concerned about that. It's an easy way for scum to look busy without taking a stance.

Ok. So with point 1 you're saying that having "3 reasons towards a scumread" was too many at that point in time?
And with 3, is it really? Basically the options seem to be:
1) give scum/townreads for all players
2) give scum/townreads for the majority of players
3) give scum/townreads for the minority of players
4) give scum/townreads for 1 player
5) don't give scum/townreads
How would you rank them based on most to least concerning? And I did take a stance, and even made a list of preferred lynches. Isn't that taking

more

of a stance than most if not all other players?

This seems like it contradicts itself in a way. You say scum!piisirrational would have more likely agreed with your and scumread me or disagreed with you and scumread you, instead of writing what they did, which would make that post a candidate for "looking busy without taking a solid stance on anyone", which is then (essentially) the reason you're voting for me. Also how do you still post this,

I think you misinterpreted. I took a solid stance. Pi is town. I was just explaining why they arent scum when I said what scum!Pi wouldn't do.

Ah, sorry, maybe I wasn't clear. I'm saying that piisirrational's post that you liked was more of a case of "looking busy without taking a solid stance on anyone", exactly for the reasons that you stated you would have expected scum to say, as in "agreed with you and scumread me or disagreed with you and scumread you".

after liking piisirrational post, which comments on how my list was of AI-things and not scumreads and that scummy things can be found in town players as well?

This is irrelevant. What Pi said was very town-indicative because no scum agenda was pushed and that was very clear. Your list of reads does not read the same.

Are you saying that you think that scum-hunting and lynching are a scum-agenda?

Most importantly though, Raya, instead of "being wary" (which is conveniently vague) of that list of mine, why don't you go over its points and tell us what you think about them specifically? Even if it's just "this doesn't make sense to me", "this is scummy" or "this I could agree with", wouldn't that be so much more useful for everyone than just stopping at suspecting the whole thing?

I can do that later when I have my laptop if you want

I would appreciate it, thanks.

Honestly, I normally wouldn't go quote by quote like this, but the more you're explaining things, the more you're either showing contradictions or just not making sense, which is either a sign of scum making things up because of inherent dishonesty or a whatever aligned player that doesn't really go back when they're in the "wrong". Which happens, there's no shame in it, and stubbornly sticking to the original stance or whatever only makes them look scummy.

[keyenpeydee]

It's been over 36 hours since piisirrational posted. They have been prodded.

[keyenpeydee]

It's been over 36 hours since piisirrational posted. They have been prodded.

They have 24 hours to respond or get replaced.

[keyenpeydee]

.