Newbie 2010: Pride Month | Game Over

[keyenpeydee]

Vote count 1.07

The Intersex Flag

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(L-2) Elmo Teh AzN

- Snowblaze, Hectic, Umlaut,

(1) Umlaut

- piisirrational,

(1) Homura

- Ghost Ganster,

(1) Ghost Ganster

- Raya36,

(1) Snowblaze

- Elmo TeH AzN,

(1) Raya36

- gibus,

(1) Not Voting

- Homura,

MOD NOTES

: Good luck to everybody!
With

9

alive, it takes

5

to lynch. Day One will end in

(expired on 2020-06-21 10:30:00)

.
#BlackLivesMatter

[Umlaut]

Really do not get how anyone thinks Ghost is scum right now. The only point that sort of makes sense is "listing a lot of reasons to scumread people" but I think the explanation in 163 is solid.

Raya, thoughts on Ghost's push on me?

Why did you ask this of Raya specifically? I'd assume you already knew Raya had him as scum?

[piisirrational]

You have a point about null reads but I think that applies much later on the game rather than 6 pages in. A lot of null reads this early is normal. A lot of scumreads this early doesn't sit well with me.

To clarify: I'm scumreading you because of your SR, not because you have a lot of nullreads.

Explain? This doesn't make sense. Raya's explanation of why she finds Ghost scummy ("I honestly think Ghost's list of scumreads was setting up mislynches and if any gained traction he would push that one." and how she disagreed with Ghost's suggestion of a policy lynch) is perfectly valid and I don't see any scum motivation here for Raya to push Ghost.

[Homura]

Okay, but did you consider that other players can analyze the answers to your questions anyway? You don't even necessarily have to be the one doing the analyzing (though that's always good). This is a team game. If you're town, you should be playing to help yourself

and

your teammates. So even if you can't follow up, asking questions, adding pressure, voting people, is always helpful.

Surely if my tone is different to previous games when I was scum it should imply that I’m

not

scum.

The fact you were scum in your game together wasn't in Homura's post. If it's true, then your point is very valid, the omission is scummy in itself, and her explanation for listing you as possible scum loses whatever little basis it already had (I'm not a huge fan of meta).

The difference is in contrast to all her previous games, not just scum games. I considered her tone off-putting in a vacuum. My post was not nebulous enough to misunderstand this.

I consider scumreading someone based on a lack of evidence fallacious except in certain circumstances, and so will not engage with you on this thread of thinking further.

[Homura]

Snow can be town now, though.

Ghost vote on Elmo.

[Homura]

Why did you ask this of Raya specifically? I'd assume you already knew Raya had him as scum?

I did. I also think Ghost is obvtown. My intent should be clear.

[piisirrational]

I'm not sold on Elmo being scum. She seems pretty aggressive with how she's voting people, but I don't think scum are usually this aggressive in their play. However, the only thing I can attribute to her continual movement of votes and reactions as town is as some form of reaction test (can't really explain much beyond this because this just feels like a possibility in this context). Reaction tests aren't useful though unless information is gained from them so I'd like Elmo to explain the motivation behind her movement of votes at some point.

[Homura]

I do think there's a more flippant element to her play than scum would have, but that can't be counted as a point in town!Elmo's favor.

[Umlaut]

Why did you ask this of Raya specifically? I'd assume you already knew Raya had him as scum?

I did. I also think Ghost is obvtown. My intent should be clear.

I didn't know you had Ghost as obvtown, so it seemed like you were inviting Raya to make arguments that he was scum so you wouldn't have to. Seeing you stick your neck out on a read there helps that a bit, though.

I do think there's a more flippant element to her play than scum would have, but that can't be counted as a point in town!Elmo's favor.

This seems self-contradictory.

[Homura]

TStbS is not towny.

[Homura]

A point which I only apply to Newbies, anyway, because the tactic is used uncommonly by more experienced players like Elmo FME.

[Umlaut]

I agree TStbS is a bad tell, but that's not quite what you said. You said Elmo isn't playing in a way she would play as scum, but that isn't evidence that she's town. If that were true it would be pretty much by definition evidence that she's town.

I realize as I write it that this is kind of nitpicky but it's still bothering me.

[Homura]

that this is kind of nitpicky

Yes. It is.

[Raya36]

So you're saying that it was a typo and the sentence should have read "That's 5/8 players that Ghost has to get a read on", right? I still don't understand it. And what you later say to explain it, so this,

I'm just starting that there are 8 players total for you to get a read on so its ?/8 people you scumread.

doesn't make sense, either, unless I'm being stupid (which could be, sorry).

Oh I didn't even catch the typo. That's what I get for phone-posting.
I mean that from the playerlist there are 8 players total you need to read. (Not 9 because you know yourself). All I'm saying is you listed scum reasons for 5/8 players.

First, it's lynch-voting, which I explained in the post in which I did it, is also a great way to pressure the lurker in question to stop lurking and being more active. But even ignoring the fact we disagree on the premise, how do you explain that I didn't push another, then? Elmo's, for example?

What do you mean exactly by lynch-voting? I agree with pressuring the lurker, that's a good reason to vote. But don't you think it would be better to vote the lurker based on something they said or just the fact that they're not posting context rather then outright state you want to policy-lynch them?

What do you mean by the second part? How do I explain that you didn't push another scumread?

Ok. So with point 1 you're saying that having "3 reasons towards a scumread" was too many at that point in time?
And with 3, is it really? Basically the options seem to be:
1) give scum/townreads for all players
2) give scum/townreads for the majority of players
3) give scum/townreads for the minority of players
4) give scum/townreads for 1 player
5) don't give scum/townreads
How would you rank them based on most to least concerning? And I did take a stance, and even made a list of preferred lynches. Isn't that taking more of a stance than most if not all other players?

Well there were 5 different players with negative points towards them and I do think that's a lot this early.
Your list is showing different amounts of reads. I'm talking about specifically scumreads. Get rid of the word town from your list and I would rank it 1, 2, 5, 3/4
It is true that you took a stance with your lynch order list.

Ah, sorry, maybe I wasn't clear. I'm saying that piisirrational's post that you liked was more of a case of "looking busy without taking a solid stance on anyone", exactly for the reasons that you stated you would have expected scum to say, as in "agreed with you and scumread me or disagreed with you and scumread you".

Ah, I see now. The problem here is that you're not looking at the reason I'm townreading Pi for that. I'm townreading them because they clearly have no scum agenda in a place that scum should have some sort of agenda. The fact that they aren't taking a stance in this case points towards them being town because as scum it would be easy to push either me or you (if you're town) from that interaction. I don't see scum commenting on the interaction and not using it to their advantage. I never said not taking a solid stance is always scummy. It's case by case. I found it scummy in your case and in Pi's case it indicated town.

Are you saying that you think that scum-hunting and lynching are a scum-agenda?

Pushing mislynches is scum-agenda. And Pi didn't push either of us. He even said that you were scummy but that doesn't make you scum . Scum doesn't say that about a town player. Scum would say you were scummy so that makes you scum and join me and push for your mislynch. So assuming you aren't partners then I don't think Pi is scum.

I would appreciate it, thanks.

I'll start working on it then

[Raya36]

-Umlaut's voting, mirroring and immediately following mine twice, looks so fishy that they actually feel like town (like "scum wouldn't do this", which is a faulty assumption, but you get where I'm coming from, I think).

-It can be a bit dangerous to get a town read from a post simply because you totally agree with it, but that's what's happened when I read Umlaut's post just now.

Umlaut seems to be your townread right now.

-I'm generally wary of statements of facts that in actuality are opinions, so #30 (Elmo's post), looks slightly scummy, even if it's a joke (which is not clear to me).

-Elmo's following post was scummy as well. Not the vote itself, but the lack of an explanation and especially the one-liner used ("You can't make Lylo"), which I find very weird to say at this stage of the game.

-Elmo's post, #69, gives me town vibes. I'm not sure I agree with it (unless here scum often makes very early hammers happen and gets away with it later?), but it's something that's worth noting in general and in a newbie game especially, and I don't think scum would do it. I feel that he could have found/bullshitted other reasons to explain his vote on Snowblaze in that case.

-Elmo's posts #78 and #79, go back to irk me, simply because I would say the wagon

was

still random voting, because at the end of the day it was based on gibus' scumclaim joke. Maybe we just have a different definition of it, though? I would be interested in knowing. Personally, I would equate random voting with "baseless", and I would include joke-votes under "baseless" as well. Am I off here?

On Elmo you go back and forth which is ok since this is just thought posting. But it does show not taking a solid stance for sure and the back and forth could definitely be busywork from scum. That's why I'm concerned about it. You have 3/4 points being towards scum.

-Raya answering your question about the most efficient way of "consuming" time as town, and then not doing it, basically at all, is slightly scummy as well.

-Raya's questions and especially the prod to get an answer (so mainly post #82) gives me a town vibe.

Same thing for me. You have a point for me being scum and then a point for me being scum.

-Your inside joking/weird hinting/trolling makes me very paranoid that I'm just not gonna be able to get a read on you and/or that I'll get annoyed at you, which will affect my opinion of you in an unhelpful way. I think being useful and cooperative is a good town trait, and in the vast majority of cases, not being so is either scummy or just good for scum.

-Your post, #68, is helpful but worded scummily, or at least the lack of an acknowledgement that you and Umlaut could both be scum is.

This is where you call Hectic scummy and also unhelpful (which is why I put unhelpful in brackets in my post earlier). To my understanding you're pushing him for being unhelpful since you say he's scummy/helping scum.

-Snowblaze having exactly zero reads... I wouldn't say it's necessarily indicative of an alignment, but once again it's unhelpful, so it does raise my suspicions. I'm of the opinion that having bad reads (whatever "bad" means) is better than having none, so I personally would

force

myself to get some (if you get what I mean) in her shoes. Thankfully I'm paranoid enough that it's never going to happen, most likely. XD

You say Snowblaze not having any reads isn't alignment indicative then you say that's not helpful. And not being helpful raises your suspicions therefore you think Snowblaze is sus for something you state is NAI. You contradict yourself. So if this gains traction you can keep pushing this point towards them being scummy. If it doesn't you can use the exact same point to call them town if need be.

-Tonally, everything piisirrational in this last page feels like scum. I can't really put my finger on why, or at least, I don't know how exactly to explain it. Ironically enough, I think it's something about the need to explain, over-explain or needlessly explain (and not making a great job of it).

This is ok I guess. Not a great explanation so I don't understand the reasoning exactly but you said it's hard to explain.


Plus your scumread/push on Homura in the next post.


So you scumread from my understanding of this post:
-Elmo (3/4 points towards scum)
-Me (1/2 points towards scum)
-Hectic (2/2 points scummy/unhelpful)
-Snowblaze (1/1 points unhelpful which isn't scummy but makes you sus which contradicts itself)
-Pi (1/1 points towards scum)
-Homura (next post)

So that leaves Umlaut who you only had town reasons for and gibus who you never mention in this post or at all besides your RVS vote yet is 4th on your lynch list (so I assume you scumread him too?)

so that's 6/8 or 7/8 players you scumread and the only player you appear to townread is Umlaut.

[Umlaut]

My eyes are drooping and I feel tired so I'm gonna come back to this tomorrow after a 8 hour power nap.

Did you oversleep?

[Umlaut]

@Pi

Why are you still voting me? Last time you talked about it you were saying you didn't even really think I was scum. Did you decide I was at some point or do you just still have no scumreads two days later?

[Snowblaze]

Homura, if you think Elmo is scum and you want Ghost to vote for her, why aren’t you voting Elmo yourself?

[Homura]

...wow.

[gibus]

You have a point about null reads but I think that applies much later on the game rather than 6 pages in. A lot of null reads this early is normal. A lot of scumreads this early doesn't sit well with me.

To clarify: I'm scumreading you because of your SR, not because you have a lot of nullreads.

Explain? This doesn't make sense. Raya's explanation of why she finds Ghost scummy ("I honestly think Ghost's list of scumreads was setting up mislynches and if any gained traction he would push that one." and how she disagreed with Ghost's suggestion of a policy lynch) is perfectly valid and I don't see any scum motivation here for Raya to push Ghost.

The way I see it, pointing out borderline scumminess from various people with the intention of furthering discussion, and getting more opinions and reactions (as stated by GG) is a pretty helpful thing to do. The post itself looks like a genuine response to #53, and I agree with most of the points. It seems insincere to me that GG's primitive opinions were perceived as full fledged scumreads to get textbook scumtell (which I don't get, is narrowing down scum (those who gain

traction

) from a large pool of players not an acceptable way of scumhunting?)

[gibus]

I'm not sure about my town lean on Snow anymore.

[gibus]

(In response to your next post, I am most definitely town or scum)

Sounds like a serial killer

[Raya36]

What's making you change your mind on Snow?

[gibus]

What's making you change your mind on Snow?

Slight town lean on Raya, because I don’t really see scum deciding to go after Ghost here.

This. I don't know where the town lean is coming from.

[Raya36]

I'd be interested to hear that town lean explained more actually.

Do you think scum would force a town read on me?