Mini Normal 2141: The World of Tomorrow [Game over!]

[Umlaut]

Vote Count 5.4 (final)

votato

(3): mavsfan41, VP Baltar, ready2rock

VP Baltar

(1): votato

Not Voting

(1): hellbooks

With 5 alive, it takes 3 to lynch.

[Umlaut]

votato was lynched!

Spoiler: What were they?!

Vanilla Townie

Welcome to the game, votato. You are a

Vanilla Townie

.

Abilities

You have no special abilities.

Win Condition

You win when the Town is the sole surviving faction.

Links

Game thread

---

Night 5

Everyone sleep tight!
The day will dawn in (expired on 2020-06-16 19:18:00).
(If all living players PM me their consent, I will end the night early.)

[Umlaut]

ready2rock died during the night!

Spoiler: What was he?!

Welcome to the game, ready2rock. You are a

Town Tracker

.

Abilities

• Each night you may target one player, to learn whom if anyone that player visits during the night.

Win Condition

You win when the Town is the sole surviving faction.

Links

Game thread

---

Day 6

Vote Count 6.0

Not Voting

(3): VP Baltar, hellbooks, mavsfan41

With 3 alive, it takes 2 to lynch.

Deadline:

(expired on 2020-06-26 19:19:00)

[VP Baltar]

So over the night I just kept coming back to this question about the setup because I keep jostling with mavs claim (which I think is fairly believable) and the fact that three investigators is potentially very overpowered against three scum with no real powers that we've seen yet.

I just don't believe there is a role cop or jailkeeper or something like that in play because we just have not seen those effects based upon claims or NKs so far.

I feel like if I can make sense of this, we can win this game. Sadly, it did occur to me that there is a possibility we incorrectly cleared hellbrooks because of r2r's track. I did not know (or at least recall) what a ninja modifier was until I was rereading over the night phase and thinking about possible roles, but a ninja scum would make sense as a possible nerf to the town's investigative powers and would explain a negative track result. Then I thought to myself, "well that doesn't make sense, why would scum have had Gamma carry out the first night kill if they had an untrackable teammate?" But that kill happened when Atarashi was not yet replaced. So...did scum send Gamma to do the kill that night because they were lacking a teammate at the time? Or am I just overthinking this and mavs is the obvious answer here.

I would like to hear from both of you on what you've thought about regarding the setup balance and what would actually make sense for the scum here...because I'll be honest, I'm much less sure than I was yesterday at the close of the day. What am I missing?

[VP Baltar]

Setup analysis:

Town:

Daytalk investigator

(basically a full cop in this setup since no neighbors)

Tracker

(weaker early game, strong late game)

Disloyal fruit vendor

(weak investigative role if played right, also possible to confirm as town via tracker)

Night 4 vig

(could outright win the game for town, but also could lose it. Depends on quality of player holding the role. Possible to confirm via tracker later in the game.)

Scum:

Strongman

(does nothing in this setup, so essentially goon)

Strongman

(does nothing in this setup, so essentially goon)

????

I think it's basically impossible for a setup like this to get through review without some type of power in that third role or some type of adjustment to the town side.

[VP Baltar]

Anyhow, I have a lot of meetings this afteroon, but I'll be back later. I just wanted to get that out there quick so I'm not mislynched because of votato's bad play and inability to help work through possibilities yesterday.

[hellbooks]

I'm going to wait to hear what mavs has to say before responding to you if you don't mind

[mavsfan41]

I don’t really have anything to say. R2R claimed tracker and tracked hellbooks twice. N4 was when there was only one scum left and said hellbooks didn’t visit anyone. He now flipped tracker, clearing hellbooks (not saying he would’ve fake claimed here, but there is a tiny slight possibility but that doesn’t make sense to just save hellbooks rather than let her be lynched). It’s been very well documented how I’m a disloyal fruit vendor. I’ve explained how and why I did what I did. And can’t really say much else about people arguing I fake claimed with one helluva an elaborate fake claim I bread crumbed with no pressure....

In fact, I tagged R2R last night. It was either him fake claiming tracker or VP as scum. If he tracked me and survived (figuring Vp’s argument would be either I fake claimed or R2R did and take out hellbooks), R2R was either going to target me or VP. If he targeted me and saw I visited him and was still alive, he would’ve had VP as scum (with a NK of hellbooks) or he tracked VP and saw him target hellbooks with hellbooks dying (knowing from my statement yesterday I had either votato or VP as scum) and would likely be tagging the surviving member.

Long story short: hellbooks was cleared by R2R. I’m disloyal fruit vendor. That leaves VP.

VOTE: VP

[mavsfan41]

Was gonna Unvote on the basis of hellbooks being a weird ninja role or something (going with the slight possibility of 3rd scum being some super role or something). But that doesn’t make sense cause R2R had said he tracked Gamma night 1.

If hellbooks was ninja or something like that, why would Gamma commit a kill at all? (Sure the argument here would be cause scum was under the assumption of a protective role considering 2 mafia strongmen, but to NK day 1 to assure the kill went through where a potential nurse having statistically the worst odds of targeting the same player scum was targeting seems extremely unlikely.)

Also, was the NPOM lynch really 6 townies and a Dunn hammer? That’s kinda nuts!

[VP Baltar]

Did you read what I wrote above about Atarashi not being around? If you are not scum, you are putting us in rapid danger of losing this game if hellbrooks is scum and can quick hammer me.

[VP Baltar]

I'm going to wait to hear what mavs has to say before responding to you if you don't mind

I'm fine with this. Especially if you don't come in and instahammer me because that proves mavs scum.

[mavsfan41]

I'm going to wait to hear what mavs has to say before responding to you if you don't mind

I'm fine with this. Especially if you don't come in and instahammer me because that proves mavs scum.

Oh come on. You’re not gonna be insta-hammered cause hellbooks is town and you’re the final scum due to process of elimination. If hellbooks throws her vote on me, you insta-hammer to win.

I’ve said what I’ve got to say about my claim and R2R’s clear or hellbooks.

Gimme a scenario where R2R’s tracker claim on hellbooks 2 nights a row of no result does not make her town? She HAD to kill Puppy and R2R tracked her the night Puppy died.

[VP Baltar]

If she has a ninja modifier, she gets no track results. N1, that slot was not around to perform the kill due to replacement.

[VP Baltar]

https://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=Ninja

[VP Baltar]

In fact, I tagged R2R last night.

Why would you not target me? That seems more obvious. If r2r had lived the night, he would have had a result to win the game most likely. I don't understand the logic here at all

[mavsfan41]

In fact, I tagged R2R last night.

Why would you not target me? That seems more obvious. If r2r had lived the night, he would have had a result to win the game most likely. I don't understand the logic here at all

Umm... I detailed this in that post but fine, I’ll break it down.

R2R was tracking EITHER you or me.

If he tracks me, he survives and knows I did NOT kill him. This was the ONLY way to make sure the tracker got a result and I wouldn’t be crossed up with the NK for whatever reason (if the tracker somehow didn’t get NK’ed). Also, if you’re actually saying hellbooks was a ninja (wish you had mention that yesterday but now you’re trying to muddy up today instead, so that’s fun), then it’s not impossible (unlikely absolutely but not impossible) R2R fake claimed. Had he fake claimed, he might’ve said I did target you last night (where I didn’t) cause that’s the most obvious choice and guess. So that could’ve exposed his potential fake claim.

I target you, cool. You’re scum and get fruit but obviously say you didn’t cause again, misplayed my role.

[mavsfan41]

I would like to stress, why didn’t you come out yesterday with the whole hellbooks is a ninja thing? Why is that coming out today?

[hellbooks]

I should be clear to you now.

[VP Baltar]

I would like to stress, why didn’t you come out yesterday with the whole hellbooks is a ninja thing? Why is that coming out today?

I didn't think of it. I was researching over the night phase how the setup could be working because I honestly believed your claim.

Regarding you and r2r, I guess what I'm saying is that regardless of who was scum, it would only make sense that r2r would get killed. I mean, maybe if I'm right about a ninja role it would have to let him live? But without that for sure it would have been illogical for a scum to not kill r2r last night. That's why I'm saying targeting him makes no sense. I get your explanation, but you clearly weren't thinking about a possible ninja role, so I don't get why you wouldn't think he'd just get NK.

P edit:. Yep. VOTE: mavs

[VP Baltar]

Ok, so yeah, hellbrooks...the setup literally makes no sense as laid out with the info we have. Mavs has to be lying about his claim.

[mavsfan41]

So umm, hellbooks is a ninja, but cause I didn’t even think that to be the case, I’m scum, yea okay buddy. Don’t worry, I get it, you’re scum is this is your best path to victory

@hellbook: what do you think?

Am I fake claiming disloyal fruit vendor and have fabricating my reasoning (agree or disagree with it) for tagging R2R
OR
Is the dude who is trying to come out now saying you’re a possible ninja to convince me but after me not buying the claim, then realized he can’t get me to vote you so he’s gonna hope to get you to vote me.

Choose wisely

[VP Baltar]

That's certainly an accurate representation. /s

I don't think I've seen you this aggressive about anything all game, so that's cool!

[mavsfan41]

My options are narrowed down quite a bit!

[VP Baltar]

Okay, I went back and read large parts of this game over and here’s where I’m at....
Puppy is off-wagon on EVERY vote. His reasons for being off wagon are weak at best. The Gamma vote...

ok, i'm all caught up, i didn't see the stuff about roles and claims until the end

not sure there's much i can add, one of blair/gamma is scum, i've been townreading blair most of the game and will probably side that way

Here comes a Gamma vote right?

ok, i'm all caught up, i didn't see the stuff about roles and claims until the end

not sure there's much i can add, one of blair/gamma is scum, i've been townreading blair most of the game and will probably side that way

a very small part of me is tempted to say that we should not lynch blair or gammagooey and just let gamma live until n3 so he can shoot blair if he can

but, meh, can't outsmart the counter claims i think

Nope. With all the reasons he’s found to actually vote, this one seems weird to not vote here. Day 2 is the only day that ended without Puppy being off wagon. This strikes me as Puppy knowing who will flip what.

If Puppy is scum, I think the only possible pairings are VP/Hellbooks. My guess here would be Hellbooks. A puppy/vp would mean an ALL TOWN lynch in day 1 of NPOM. A hellbooks/puppy pairing would make more sense considering the Gamma lynch. (Hellbooks wasn’t on the NPOM, that was Atarashi super early.) I also don’t see scum!hellbooks jumping off my wagon with 1480. Hellbooks does vote puppy in 1811 but unvotes very shortly after Quick put puppy at L-1. This would also make sense from the day 1 perspective of votato getting on Atarashi and then puppy tunneling the ever loving crap of votato, a read he supposedly carried throughout day 1 (omitted for some reason day 2) and then brought back up day 3. Another possible scum partner would be VP, but I don’t quite believe VP is scum.

@Puppy: what’s your feelings on votato? You’ve seemed to think he’s scum and now have switched to Dunn. I do not believe Dunn/votato are a pairing meaning at least one is town. Voting Dunn, do you now believe votato to be town?

The off-wagon Puppy has the inverse. And that is Dunn. I’ve stated my feelings on Dunn especially my rejection of the early bus on Gamma. That being said, the day 1 lynch must have 1 scum on it right? Right? That would mean Dunn, votato, or hellbooks. Scum is here. (The only other living players on that were R2R and myself.) I hate Dunn’s hammer on midway ESPECIALLY since he has conviction puppy is scum than ran to midway. That would suggest he believed a Puppy/midway pairing. He never mentions this. Not even once. Not even close. He independently suggests scum in midway with 1860 which is a wack post. The hammer of NPOM was bad. The hammer of midway was waaaay worse! And before you @me Dunn, your progression on midway was nonexistent. It was a hammer to hammer. You hasn’t previously read him as scum and if you think puppy is scum, why even hammer midway at all? That’s super anti-town. This makes me actually really want to vote Dunn.

A quick list of other players here:
VP - could see a sneaky scenario where he is scum. Partners... um, votato and puppy? I know it was super early, but I would say votato’s 398 eliminates a pairing as votato refused to move his vote from Atarashi, and then he finally moved it to bus? Nah. Puppy/VP is a thing that might be a thing? Not sure. But that’s the only possible pairing for me that has VP as scum.

Votato - no clue still. Scum!puppy makes votato town for sure. I don’t see a votato/hellbooks based of the Atarashi interaction from day 1. Votato I would say is likely town due to him not really having a partner unless it’s 11:2.

Hellbooks - could really be scum with many players still left. Also, the wagon on me is all town if hellbooks is town. If that’s the case, I think votato would be scum here as I would’ve been lynched with an all town wagon if town!hellbooks and town votato.

I guess I feel it’s either hellbooks/puppy or hellbooks Dunn based off process of elimination. Hellbooks is likely scum in these scenarios. So I’m okay there. However, a puppy/Dunn lynch would provide town with more info. As it essentially clears the other player. Puppy would be my choice here but Dunn, please be less anti-town and muddying stuff up!! Why the 180 to midway after seemingly never previously SR’ing him. That’s sketch af.

@dunn: who is puppy’s partner and why? Who can’t be puppy’s partner and why? Also, why are you now going from lol hammering to immediately jumping at puppy from the get-go? Also, in day 3, just before the hammer, in 2069, you have scum as votato/puppy. Surely not as a team right? That would mean you would think midway is partnered with votato (DEFINITELY not the case) or partnered with puppy (which you never bring up ONCE!). I’ve now changed my mind...

VOTE: Dunn

This has been one long stream of consciousness post.
Possibly pairings: hellbooks and that’s basically it....

Pedit: @votato: why not hellbooks with Dunn? 2208 would be VP lynching hellbooks with Dunn as the only real option yes?

Reason #1 mavs is scum

: This above post ^ Now that it is clear mavs is the scum, it is hilarious to re-read. It is the most hand-wavey, "maybe Dunn is scum, but here are lots of reasons he's not, but oh yeah, I'll vote anyhow on this clearly unavoidable lynch" post.
Here is how the ghost of puppy's past characterized it:

admit i was surprised to read this and then find a dunn vote at the end

Reason #2:

Mavs also never voted for Gamma even though it was very clear Blair caught him out.

Reason #3:

Mavs' role also makes no sense in the setup and there's been zero explanation from him regarding that.

Compared to:

VP has supported both scum wagons early and often. Don't believe the hype when mavs tries to claim I was late on that Dunn wagon! Here is literally the first thing I said Day 4:

I'd be OK with dunn today. Two hammers with minimal wind up is scummy without a doubt.

Had I voted at that point, it would have given Dunn the chance to self-hammer with like ~10 posts in the day. It's a ridiculous assertion to say I should have voted then rather than try to figure out a Dunn pairing.

I certainly haven't been perfect this game, but I've been absolutely doing pro-town actions all game and killing scum in the process. I think the answer here is very clear.

[mavsfan41]

VP bus’ed BOTH partners late. He’s got the same poor voting record as me. At least I was on Dunn early-ish?

Look, I’ve really got nothing else to say.

I’m a town disloyal fruit vendor. VP is scum. Hellbooks hasn’t hammered aka town.