Newbie 2010: Pride Month | Game Over

[Raya36]

I thought I was mostly wrong about you because it didn't gain any traction. Why is that scummy?

Because you pushed me and when it didn't gain any traction you hopped off. That's not how town plays. Town keeps pressuring until they actually think the person they thought was scum is town.

I don't agree with your logic. Why is that not how town plays? Why don't town reconsider their reads based on existing TR reasons and SR reasons?

Because from a town POV it makes no sense to think you're wrong about a scumread because a wagon didn't build up. If that's how it worked there would be far less mislynches because a wagon building up would be scum indicative. When that's not the case, it's actually more likely to be the opposite since scum are actively pushing for mislynches.

[Hectic]

Raya could be scum for grabbing all these PageTops. Scum want to claim those because they're like fortified watchtowers of a castle. Best way to give a good impression.

[Hectic]

Still haven't properly caught up but I suddenly get the impression gibus might be flipping town. In his last newbie game, he was hammered without being given a chance to claim so I wasn't able to see what he'd claim day 1 as scum, but once he started being suspected, he kinda just gave up and stopped posting altogether. This definitely isn't the case here, and he's been solving/trying to prove he's town till the end. Also, I doubt he claims VT here when it looks like he's most likely the lynch. Being lynched as scum here on day 1 without outing a PR means a loss for scum 90% of the time in newbie games. I think he would fakeclaim a PR as scum.

However, I'm in the awkward position here where I'm the counterwagon which isn't great.

VOTE: Umalut

Could I interest people in this? Have faith, Subi. Isn't my play here very similar to our previous newbie together? I've been less active but I've had less time, is my solving not the same though?

I also recall some other expressing paranoia/scumleans on Umlaut. We can make this happen.

[Snowblaze]

I could be interested, but there's not long before deadline and I'm not going to be around for very much longer. I need to be certain the numbers are there before I switch.

[Hectic]

Well, his responses are what changed my mind. Not Raya's disapproval.

This makes sense, but I’m still confused about the part where you said that I was not even your top scumread, and yet you pushed me as scum the hardest in your catch up. Did you decide just based on my responses that I was no longer your top scumread? Who is your top scumread right now?

You too, turtle. You suspected me because of my suspicions on you, but that's me prodding into what I find suspicious. Why would scum!me scumread and shade someone and then immediately change my mind after they start suspecting me? All I've done there is made someone suspect me and worsen my position without any benefit. It's because I'm town and just giving out my reads, and not playing with some agenda.

How do you feel about Umalut?

[Raya36]

Raya could be scum for grabbing all these PageTops. Scum want to claim those because they're like fortified watchtowers of a castle. Best way to give a good impression.

Well you got me there but while that's true my main goal was to steal page top from the mod so nobody knows the vote count.

[Raya36]

Also I have no interest in lynching umlaut today. I'd rather stick with Gibus

[Umlaut]

Will catchup before deadline. For now though; Umalut, what's your progression on me?

One of Nauci or Hectic is probably scum

Why do you think this?

I think I've made my arguments about Nauci née Elmo pretty well already.

I've been paranoid of you pretty much all game because when people goof off a lot I have a hard time reading their real intentions and I feel like it's an easy way to hide a lot of otherwise scummy behavior.

I

know posts like 68 and 212 are just playing around but others don't necessarily pick up on that, and it causes them to make bad reads.

I liked you when you were voting Elmo, because I agreed with the reasoning there, but really Elmo's weird push was a pretty easy thing to notice (especially after I noticed it first) and I think you would likely have voted her for it as either alignment.

I didn't really think much of anything you posted between that and 217. Looking back, this is because you actually didn't post much--the only thing of substance is 210 which is kind of easy observations and really NAI.

I still think the Pi push and then retraction and denial that it was a push is bad, and something rubs me the wrong way about how you jokingly leaned into my suggestion you were courting Homura by echoing it in 246 and 280.

I don't like the way you left the Nauci wagon either. After being "reasonably sure Elmo is scum," you're deciding Nauci is towny for... not voting you? That's not much of a reason. I would expect town to be more paranoid here and you're not showing that. I don't see a lot of reason given to scumread gibus in the first place so I don't see why you would jump to that in particular.

I also think that saying let's not lynch gibus now, specifically because he claims VT is fairly suspect and doesn't seem like a real reason. If he had claimed a PR would you have said, okay, let's lynch him? I'm hesitant to call this PR hunting (because I think that doing so blatantly is generally just not done), but it looks a lot like doing "what I imagine town would do" instead of what town would actually do in this scenario.

[Hectic]

VT claims on day 1 are usually town in newbie game; scum will usually claim a PR. Plus, gibus is acting very differently to how he did when under pressure as scum in our previous game. I'm feeling a little hopeless honestly; the two wagons are now on people I think are both town. PT hunting, really? As a personal anecdote, every day 1 VT claim I've seen in newbie games have actually been VT. It's a thing.

I don't think my point on Nauci is bad at all. Why should I be "paranoid" as town if she goes for someone who isn't me? It may be the same slot, but it's a different person.

Turtle wasn't a push because I didn't vote him, that should be clear. If I was trying to get turtle lynched, I would've voted him. That was me voicing suspicions.

I also don't think you're using the "goofing around" thing in good faith. I've done it in every game with you, twice as town, and once as scum. I've also made it clear that even posts should not be taken seriously. So how is it "hard to read my real intentions", when it's clear which posts you should be taking seriously?

I really think Umlaut is scum, guys. Help me out here.

[Hectic]

[Raya36]

You know, that actually makes a lot of sense. Scum should be claiming a PR not VT. UNVOTE:

[Raya36]

And Hectic trying to dismantle the biggest wagon when he's the most likely counter at the moment makes me think he's town too

[Hectic]

As scum, I could very easily just get gibus lynched here. There's no reason for me to start townreading him and go for someone else when I'm the counterwagon if I'm scum. But I'm town, which is why I want to try and actually lynch who I think is scum.

I'll switch back to gibus if it means it's him or me, but I'd much rather lynch Umlaut here. If people are interested, they need to actually switch votes rather than only switching if there looks like there'll be interest, because then people will fall into the trap of no one being the first one to act.

I'll be around before deadline.

Pedit: Sooo Umlaut time, Raya?

[Raya36]

We have 8h45m left until deadline and at the rate this game is going we won't have a decision made by deadline.

Pedit: I'm thinking about it. I remember seeing a particular post I thought was towny. But I need to go through his iso.

[Umlaut]

VT claims on day 1 are usually town in newbie game; scum will usually claim a PR. Plus, gibus is acting very differently to how he did when under pressure as scum in our previous game. I'm feeling a little hopeless honestly; the two wagons are now on people I think are both town. PT hunting, really? As a personal anecdote, every day 1 VT claim I've seen in newbie games have actually been VT. It's a thing.

I'm going to have to actually look at the data on this (I think someone actually does compile this sort of data?) because it doesn't match my experience at all. Admittedly my meta for newbie games is years old, but if it's true it should be exploitable by scum, and then be exploited until it's not true any more.

I don't think my point on Nauci is bad at all. Why should I be "paranoid" as town if she goes for someone who isn't me? It may be the same slot, but it's a different person.

If I'm town, and I think I'm the most likely lynch, and I see my top scumread vote somewhere else, my first thought is not "oh they must be town then" but "they are trying to be off the mislynch wagon." Failing to think of that possibility suggests you were never really that invested in thinking Elmo was scum.

Turtle wasn't a push because I didn't vote him, that should be clear. If I was trying to get turtle lynched, I would've voted him. That was me voicing suspicions.

I'm not going to pursue this point because it seems to be more about the semantics of the word "push."

I also don't think you're using the "goofing around" thing in good faith. I've done it in every game with you, twice as town, and once as scum. I've also made it clear that even posts should not be taken seriously. So how is it "hard to read my real intentions", when it's clear which posts you should be taking seriously?

I was paranoid of you in those games too! The only time I wasn't suspicious of you was when I was scum. In Butterfly Mafia I was half-convinced you were about to off me Night 1 and then sail to an easy win. I know you do this in all your games and I'm not saying it's particularly a reason to scumread you here, but you wanted to know my progression on you and that paranoia is a part of it. It's not part of my case, and accusing me of bad faith for answering a question you asked is obnoxious.

[Raya36]

Umlaut did go on Pi who I think was attempted mislynch bait. Also he had strong town vibes on a post I expressed to be scummy. Also pushed Elmo who was a popular push at the time. Then said I was white knighting?? Lost interest in Pi when everyone started town reading him or saying that he's likely bait. And then attacking Homura. And then attacking Hectic.

This is all giving me the same feeling that Ghost's analysis post did. Lots of sus but little done.

It was his 315 that I thought was townie just since he was throwing his reads out towards the end of the day. Seemed town-oriented in the sense of organizing at the end of the day. But it could come from scum easily.

Sus on M2H's post even though he just said he's so town it hurts.

I'm not a huge fan of his argument for hectic as scum. The joke posting is NaI in my opinion. Scum could do it to up the post count and cause confusion. Town could do it for fun/personality. Scum might not do it because it gains attention. It's hard to say. Nauci not voting him being town indicative isn't a horrible argument. It's not great but I see the logic.

[Raya36]

VOTE: Umlaut I'll do this

[Hectic]

I don't think my point on Nauci is bad at all. Why should I be "paranoid" as town if she goes for someone who isn't me? It may be the same slot, but it's a different person.

If I'm town, and I think I'm the most likely lynch, and I see my top scumread vote somewhere else, my first thought is not "oh they must be town then" but "they are trying to be off the mislynch wagon." Failing to think of that possibility suggests you were never really that invested in thinking Elmo was scum.

But she's moving to push gibus and lynch him instead. So as scum, she'd still be on a mislynch wagon?

I was paranoid of you in those games too! The only time I wasn't suspicious of you was when I was scum. In Butterfly Mafia I was half-convinced you were about to off me Night 1 and then sail to an easy win. I know you do this in all your games and I'm not saying it's particularly a reason to scumread you here, but you wanted to know my progression on you and that paranoia is a part of it. It's not part of my case, and accusing me of bad faith for answering a question you asked is obnoxious.

Well, you used it as a reason to scumread me. You specified you have difficulty reading the real intentions of my posts, when this clearly shouldn't be the case (the even post thing). Others have had no difficult parsing my posts, so I doubt you of everyone in this playerlist is the person to bring this up as a point against me if you were town.

You also said this:

I know posts like 68 and 212 are just playing around but others don't necessarily pick up on that, and it causes them to make bad reads.

Have you seen this happen? I haven't. I've seen people understand the even post thing and even play along with me. This is why I think you're presenting this in bad faith.

[Hectic]

My God. Why would you do this to me, Raya. Gonna have to re-quote that now so people know I'm serious.

I don't think my point on Nauci is bad at all. Why should I be "paranoid" as town if she goes for someone who isn't me? It may be the same slot, but it's a different person.

If I'm town, and I think I'm the most likely lynch, and I see my top scumread vote somewhere else, my first thought is not "oh they must be town then" but "they are trying to be off the mislynch wagon." Failing to think of that possibility suggests you were never really that invested in thinking Elmo was scum.

But she's moving to push gibus and lynch him instead. So as scum, she'd still be on a mislynch wagon?

I was paranoid of you in those games too! The only time I wasn't suspicious of you was when I was scum. In Butterfly Mafia I was half-convinced you were about to off me Night 1 and then sail to an easy win. I know you do this in all your games and I'm not saying it's particularly a reason to scumread you here, but you wanted to know my progression on you and that paranoia is a part of it. It's not part of my case, and accusing me of bad faith for answering a question you asked is obnoxious.

Well, you used it as a reason to scumread me. You specified you have difficulty reading the real intentions of my posts, when this clearly shouldn't be the case (the even post thing). Others have had no difficult parsing my posts, so I doubt you of everyone in this playerlist is the person to bring this up as a point against me if you were town.

You also said this:

I know posts like 68 and 212 are just playing around but others don't necessarily pick up on that, and it causes them to make bad reads.

Have you seen this happen? I haven't. I've seen people understand the even post thing and even play along with me. This is why I think you're presenting this in bad faith.

Sorry for the confusion, everyone.

[Umlaut]

Sus on M2H's post even though he just said he's so town it hurts.

Can you explain why this is bad?

[Snowblaze]

Just got time to check in and VOTE: Umlaut

[Umlaut]

We don't have time for this, so I'm just going to head it off at the pass and say now that I'm an investigative PR. Let's lynch scum today.

[Hectic]

You need to claim the exact role, Umlaut. If you just say "investigative PR", you can get away with living while scum, because town can't counterclaim you.

[Hectic]

[Umlaut]

Town can't counterclaim me anyway. And by my count 7/9 setups have either an investigative or someone who knows there isn't one, so I don't agree I could get away with it as scum. If town insists on it then I'll full-claim but I don't think it's in town's interest to out more information than necessary about the setup right now.