Mini Normal 2149 | Philosophers | Over

[LicketyQuickety]

@Quickety: so it’s not only that he sheep’ed you, that’s just one component. It’s that he switched off GuiltyLion to develop a SR very quickly on Nauci and only voted AFTER osuka’s 761 as a response to that post. I think town!Norwegian votes Nauci before osuka’s post. That felt like he was worried he might appear scummy to vote Nauci but after osuka’s post, felt like he could much easily defend his vote or play it off if challenged on it.

Problem is, I was calling GL Town the whole time Norway was pushing him. I literally stepped in and got in the way of Norway's tunnel to get him to go after someone else.

[mavsfan41]

@Quickety: so it’s not only that he sheep’ed you, that’s just one component. It’s that he switched off GuiltyLion to develop a SR very quickly on Nauci and only voted AFTER osuka’s 761 as a response to that post. I think town!Norwegian votes Nauci before osuka’s post. That felt like he was worried he might appear scummy to vote Nauci but after osuka’s post, felt like he could much easily defend his vote or play it off if challenged on it.

Problem is, I was calling GL Town the whole time Norway was pushing him. I literally stepped in and got in the way of Norway's tunnel to get him to go after someone else.

So my argument is that scum!Norweigan after pushing GuiltyLion on TWO separate occasions realized he wasn’t going to get a mislynch then rapidly picked some other target in Nauci off your post, then only after getting approval from two different people (you and osuka), actually voted Nauci. I.E. Norwegian didn’t appear to be SR’ing Nauci before your post but somehow decides to vote her like 5 posts later after seeing that two other people are possibly SR’ing her. That doesn’t seem off to you?

[LicketyQuickety]

@Quickety: so it’s not only that he sheep’ed you, that’s just one component. It’s that he switched off GuiltyLion to develop a SR very quickly on Nauci and only voted AFTER osuka’s 761 as a response to that post. I think town!Norwegian votes Nauci before osuka’s post. That felt like he was worried he might appear scummy to vote Nauci but after osuka’s post, felt like he could much easily defend his vote or play it off if challenged on it.

Problem is, I was calling GL Town the whole time Norway was pushing him. I literally stepped in and got in the way of Norway's tunnel to get him to go after someone else.

So my argument is that scum!Norweigan after pushing GuiltyLion on TWO separate occasions realized he wasn’t going to get a mislynch then rapidly picked some other target in Nauci off your post, then only after getting approval from two different people (you and osuka), actually voted Nauci. I.E. Norwegian didn’t appear to be SR’ing Nauci before your post but somehow decides to vote her like 5 posts later after seeing that two other people are possibly SR’ing her. That doesn’t seem off to you?

Not for Norway, no, not at all.

[NDMath]

This post shouldn't come from town and overall norwee is much townier in the norwee-lion interaction.

Can you express your position with a bit more words?

This post shouldn't come from town and overall norwee is much townier in the norwee-lion interaction.

Why though?

He's misinterpreting norwee's post in a way that's missing what's intended to be a humorous statement and instead interpreting it as norwee scumreading him. I found more of norwee's points valid and their tone townie.

I don't buy you thought that it was very scummy unless you can be more specific as to why.

alright, if you ask for it I will indulge!

1. first things first, I didn't like opening with the "let's see if I can remember why I quoted these posts!", feels really performative and buddying up to the thread. feels like you're mindful of how people are going to perceive your entry

2. next, a number of your questions are useless, they don't need to be answered and I don't see how they will generate useful content. Often because there's more content later that makes the answers to the questions irrelevant, or because they're just kinda empty things to discuss. It seems pretty clear that Quick thought at least the 'hood' aspect of Truth's claim was legitimate. CSF has posted a bunch of content to work with, who cares about "avoiding" RVS? Do you really think that's the most indicative thing you could comment on in the first 150 posts, or even the most indicative thing about CSF's play in the game?

3. You also make a number of really hedgey or pointless comments. "Usually pushing for NL comes from scum" (hard disagree btw), "but here it's probably closer to null". Okay? Do you scumread Candy Shop or not? "I find this a likely town mindset though not necessarily townie". What? What's the point of that comment at all?

4. Next, you just voted/unvoted and peaced out. I think town should be at least putting a vote down in that situation to advance the game, even if they're not fully caught up yet. you STILL haven't voted. What are you doing to actually help catch/kill scum? How does town benefit at all from your presence in the game if you're not participating in any wagons?

5. Finally, adding your next post into the mix, it's not really clear to me

at all

why you have any of the reads that you do. Your reads list has most of the players in the game in ambiguous nully tiers with no explanation given as to how they got to be there or where you'd feel comfortable voting. Why am I lower than Candyshop, who is lower than everyone else in the game? Do you think I'm more likely scum? If both myself and Candyshop were at L-1 and you were holding the hammer, you'd vote me over Candy Shop - why? Why are Glitch/Nauci below the four players above them? Would you vote to lynch either of those slots today?

6. None of it is content that is useful to me to help understand your thought process or suggests that you're taking initiative to solve the game for your benefit or anyone else's. It all feels very timid and blendy, like you're just posting a formulaic template of what you think town posts are supposed to look like.

(Numbers Inserted)
1. I am a very self-conscious player. So yes I care how people perceive my entry.
2. Funny enough, both examples you cite are actually looker's words due to it spoilering weirdly.

@Looker

3. Pushing for NL coming from scum is from personal experience it has come from scum more times than town. At the moment in time I wasn't sure, as of completing the catchup I scumread the slot. The comment on tstbs meant that I felt quick's mindset was that of a townie, but I believed it was probably something that mafia could/would fake. I decided to keep it I guess?
4. Voting was accidental due to looker's post quoting weird. I didn't see value in voting at that point in time. I don't get why I can't be not voting in peace when it's still early in the dayphase and I'm not one to case early on. I'm helping just as much without voting in that you got the impression that if I did vote it would be for you and received the same amount of pressure from it, I don't get that point at all.
5. The purpose of the readlist was to summarize the catchup and fill in what wasn't said in terms of reads. I'm more willing to hang the further down the list, and I tend to be a more defensive player in that I prefer not having my townreads hung to getting my scumreads hung.
6. I'm not comprehending this paragraph.

so I just tried to casually skim through NDMath town/scum to see if he always plays this poorly and it looks like this dude has never been scum yet on MS lmao

however, in his completed town games, he's definitely more goal-oriented in terms of votes/pressure and shows the ability to make insightful analysis, compared to what he's offered so far here.

So I think he's a great bet for scum and D1 lynch

From context of this post and that they're my most recent games, I'm assuming the games you Iso'd my slot were open777 and largenomal227.
In open 777 I wasn't 'townie' and 'insightful' until day 2. Day 1 I was scumread by many players and my reads were very omgussy.
In largenormal227 I layed low and didn't do much until I lead massclaim. I definitely wasn't very goal oriented in this game.
Also, I would love to point out the use of 'so far here' as opposed to presumably looking at most of the game in the other games.

• If NDMath thinks GuiltyLion is scum, why isn't he voting him?

Nothing changes.

I don't buy you thought that it was very scummy unless you can be more specific as to why.

Considering how many of us picked up on that, idk why you'd think it was insincere

You post a catch up on posts from many days ago with no spectacular or original insights and then disappeared completely again without giving thoughts on anything past like, page 11

That's a pretty classic sign of demotivated scum posting this catch up was equally underwhelming and I hope in the next several pages you elaborated on your reads list

There's a huge difference between thinking my play is poor for being inactive and being annoyed I'm inactive.
Not sure how to elaborate on most of them but
I don't find Glitch's walls townie.
Your town block was weird and most of your posts don't come off as natural.
On evaluation I don't find anything wrong with quick's play.
I'm not understanding the attacks on osuka.

[Nauci]

@Quickety: so it’s not only that he sheep’ed you, that’s just one component. It’s that he switched off GuiltyLion to develop a SR very quickly on Nauci and only voted AFTER osuka’s 761 as a response to that post. I think town!Norwegian votes Nauci before osuka’s post. That felt like he was worried he might appear scummy to vote Nauci but after osuka’s post, felt like he could much easily defend his vote or play it off if challenged on it.

Problem is, I was calling GL Town the whole time Norway was pushing him. I literally stepped in and got in the way of Norway's tunnel to get him to go after someone else.

So my argument is that scum!Norweigan after pushing GuiltyLion on TWO separate occasions realized he wasn’t going to get a mislynch then rapidly picked some other target in Nauci off your post, then only after getting approval from two different people (you and osuka), actually voted Nauci. I.E. Norwegian didn’t appear to be SR’ing Nauci before your post but somehow decides to vote her like 5 posts later after seeing that two other people are possibly SR’ing her. That doesn’t seem off to you?

I keep feeling like his posts are sort of scummy with the rapid escalation into tunneling and whatnot, but I'm feeling rather WIFOM about it all because I don't think NBEE would be quite so lazy and resigned as scum (at least, that's how I felt about his "let's just lunch GL" post).

[Nauci]

That's a cool quote wall but it's a misrep of what I said in 812

And if you're scum you've been

planning your easy slide out of sheeping Norway to vote a nice easy one on Cat Scratch as you've planted shallow reasoning for Cat to be on your scum list

since 536.

popo knew his time was coming to abandon ship with the vote slave drama and if he's town he's genuinely been reading CSF scummy for a long time and therefore voted when he got off the vote slave ship,

or

he's scum and he's been planning carefully how to get off this vote slave ship since 536.

lean scum so my vote stays on him until I go back and re-read through some past stuff particularly on GL that I've been wanting to do for a while, and hopefully I'll be able to get in a full read in of the whole thread tonight.

Hmm that's fair and apologize for misinterpreting you.

If you're scumreading him for shallow reads though, what do you think of my points about Osuka?

[LicketyQuickety]

Unlike Glitch's walls, NDmath's are actually quite Townie and I like what I am seeing there. I get there will be paranoia on a wall poster who doesn't post a lot, but honestly, that's not a slot I think is Scum until later in the game when things get more intense.

[Truth]

@Truth: as for you 808, if no one dies that doesn’t necessarily mean you were saved. It means whomever the doctor targeted during the night is town (unless for whatever reason scum decides not to make a kill N1 which I highly doubt would be the case). I seriously don’t believe that the doctor would ever target you and I seriously doubt scum is going to NK you.

I don't understand this. I will be confirmed town eventually so mafia do want to kill me. If you keep saying things like this, the mafia might try and kill me and the doctors might not heal me because they will be convinced by what you are saying here. I think it'd be a bad play to let me die tonight if you're a doctor and reading this.

[LicketyQuickety]

@Truth: as for you 808, if no one dies that doesn’t necessarily mean you were saved. It means whomever the doctor targeted during the night is town (unless for whatever reason scum decides not to make a kill N1 which I highly doubt would be the case). I seriously don’t believe that the doctor would ever target you and I seriously doubt scum is going to NK you.

I don't understand this. I will be confirmed town eventually so mafia do want to kill me. If you keep saying things like this, the mafia might try and kill me and the doctors might not heal me because they will be convinced by what you are saying here. I think it'd be a bad play to let me die tonight if you're a doctor and reading this.

You might be confirmed as Town when you die, but unfortunately your voice goes unheard if that happens.

[Truth]

Sorry, I don't understand. I meant I will be confirmed when my buddies also reveal as mason.

[LicketyQuickety]

Sorry, I don't understand. I meant I will be confirmed when my buddies also reveal as mason.

Depends if you are actually mason or you are just in a hood.

[Nauci]

I'm not understanding the attacks on osuka.

What's there to not understand?

Osuka's posts comprise of the brief fight with Quick, a lot of posts facepalming at Truth which are mostly meaningless, and a very lazy and unsubstantiated push on me.

I scumreads the way that Osuka talks about my posting as "weird" repeatedly without ever explaining weird how—it's exactly the kind of shallow shade throwing without being able to come up with a proper case/narrative that signifies scum pushes vs town ones, especially at an opportune time when others like CSF were FoSing me.

He has repeatedly tried to misconstrue the way I have tried to explain his meta to the game as buddying, even though I've repeatedly told him and everyone else why I said what I did about him and wasn't at buddying. He's not engaging with my push at all or answering my question.

[LicketyQuickety]

I'm not understanding the attacks on osuka.

What's there to not understand?

Osuka's posts comprise of the brief fight with Quick, a lot of posts facepalming at Truth which are mostly meaningless, and a very lazy and unsubstantiated push on me.

I scumreads the way that Osuka talks about my posting as "weird" repeatedly without ever explaining weird how—it's exactly the kind of shallow shade throwing without being able to come up with a proper case/narrative that signifies scum pushes vs town ones, especially at an opportune time when others like CSF were FoSing me.

He has repeatedly tried to misconstrue the way I have tried to explain his meta to the game as buddying, even though I've repeatedly told him and everyone else why I said what I did about him and wasn't at buddying. He's not engaging with my push at all or answering my question.

Yeah, good point. Nothing I wouldn't call SvS either...

[Nauci]

Yeah, good point. Nothing I wouldn't call SvS either...

As in Osuka and I or?

Lol

[LicketyQuickety]

Yeah, good point. Nothing I wouldn't call SvS either...

As in Osuka and I or?

Lol

YUP!

[Nauci]

Yeah, good point. Nothing I wouldn't call SvS either...

As in Osuka and I or?

Lol

YUP!

Then why don't you help flip Osuka to test your theory

[LicketyQuickety]

Yeah, good point. Nothing I wouldn't call SvS either...

As in Osuka and I or?

Lol

YUP!

Then why don't you help flip Osuka to test your theory

IDK where I am voting currently, but I'd rather vote Glitch if I'm not already there.

[Nauci]

I don't have a case or anything, but my gut says Glitch is Scum currently.

VOTE: Glitch

It's bizarre to me that you think the only possible explanation for this game state is that I'm scum.

If i assume you are town then i have too many townreads and not enough scumreads on the other players.

Some thoughts...

Go after people like Looker, glitch and Nauci.

Nauci's townblock thing was forced A F and didn't feel natural.

I'm on the fence with nauci, but Glitch has been like, "almost not fakable content" the whole time. I also hate that he seems to be a wagon hopper.

Unlike Glitch's walls, NDmath's are actually quite Townie and I like what I am seeing there. I get there will be paranoia on a wall poster who doesn't post a lot, but honestly, that's not a slot I think is Scum until later in the game when things get more intense.

Outside of these posts, did I miss one where you cased Glitch?

I'm not sure if I'm seeing what you're seeing and I'm certainly not seeing what you're saying is a huge distinction between Glitch and NDMath, both of whom are big fat nulls for me. Can you explain?

[LicketyQuickety]

I don't have a case or anything, but my gut says Glitch is Scum currently.

VOTE: Glitch

It's bizarre to me that you think the only possible explanation for this game state is that I'm scum.

If i assume you are town then i have too many townreads and not enough scumreads on the other players.

Some thoughts...

Go after people like Looker, glitch and Nauci.

Nauci's townblock thing was forced A F and didn't feel natural.

I'm on the fence with nauci, but Glitch has been like, "almost not fakable content" the whole time. I also hate that he seems to be a wagon hopper.

Unlike Glitch's walls, NDmath's are actually quite Townie and I like what I am seeing there. I get there will be paranoia on a wall poster who doesn't post a lot, but honestly, that's not a slot I think is Scum until later in the game when things get more intense.

Outside of these posts, did I miss one where you cased Glitch?

I'm not sure if I'm seeing what you're seeing and I'm certainly not seeing what you're saying is a huge distinction between Glitch and NDMath, both of whom are big fat nulls for me. Can you explain?

Sure, I'll explain. If you keep soft defending Glitch, you are Scum with him.

Glitch's content has been objectively bad not really offering any new insights, and generally just jumping on the next popular wagon.

[Nauci]

So I went to look for an Osuka town game in case their posting is always sort of this shallow, and while this is obviously not an exhaustive case with a large sample size, here's what I saw so far:

https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.p ... ct[]=30137

Osuka ISO from Mini Normal 1989, Mafia 2-Shot Roleblocker

https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.p ... ct[]=30137

Osuka ISO from Newbie 1850, Town Cop

(Goddamnit why would this forum put [ and ] in URLs this post was such a bitch to format especially from phone)

The scum ISO had a lot of posts discussing setup spec or mafia theory or otherwise IIOA, and a lot of posts with short snippets with shallow scum or town reads

The town ISO had posts which had some substance, like these:

rip I submitted by accident

cont'd:

the slot's ISO is literally just a lot of questions, and there are interactions with everyone - but only three times since #133 has the slot actually said something of substance about how the game looks from its pov

this is the kind of playstyle that looks town most of the time but is really more likely to come from scum (as they aren't actually providing a lot of content, they're making other people do so). I myself might be a little guilty of not providing as much content as the game would like but i've been really busy with school

above is not only directed @elfiis, but also @vort and @(anyone else who thinks the slot is town)

finally: upon closer scrutiny, I feel like the lemon wagon is kinda bullshit and very likely has scum motivation behind it

very early in the game the slot got shit for an rvs vote and that's how the wagon got started. that's a really shitty reason for you to wagon a slot

the slot has solid posts in #155, #159 (especially the second part), #172 (which is a strong reply), #179, and #199 (other than the first line that sounds weird)

@everyone in the wagon: can you tell me exactly why you're about to lynch the slot?

since there's not much time left, while waiting for lemon to respond to my 194 I'll also just lay out the problem I have with lemon and the way he's approaching Ico:

I feel like Ico is tunneling me a bit, but despite that I quite like his posts. It feels like they're trying to push the game forward with their posts, which is always good, and they make some valid points.

The only thing about him that makes me pause is him reacting to me answering Yankee. I don't know how he read that as me helping scumYankee out, and he still hasn't acknowladged the misunderstanding of the question, if anything it feels like he's ignoring it. I really want to see what he has to say about it.

lemon said it was "interesting" how Ico "spun" him as helping scum!Yankee, but this "interesting" thing doesn't seem to have shaped his read at all. Lemon repeatedly

says

that he's curious how Ico would acknowledge/respond to this point, but his actions don't really indicate it - he's still townreading Ico, he isn't really pushing or diving into the heart of Ico misunderstanding him, and further just mostly concludes that he thinks Ico is town tunneling.

I'm having a hard time seeing this as more likely to come from town - if townies were townreading someone who was misreading them due to a misunderstanding, they'd point out the misunderstanding and try to work with the other player to get them to re-evaluate with that in mind. If the other player continued to push incorrectly, I think townies would be less certain about the intentions behind that push - but lemonator feels to me like he's scared to scumread Ico.

on the other hand, scum!lemon may be more likely to try to both simultaneously shade and defuse the situation in the way he has tried to do here. He wants other players to doubt Ico based on this misunderstanding (124), but doesn't want to commit to a read change or risk further aggression from a town!Ico himself (172).

I get the sense that lemon does believe Ico is town - but not because he's townreading him as a result of his play, but rather because he just knows ahead of time that Ico is in fact town tunneling onto him. And one other point about this bit:

Ico, I feel like you've already decided I'm scum and are trying to make my posts fit your narrative. I lean more toward you being town tunneling me rather than scum, but it's pretty worrying to me.

This is actually a sneaky good post to make as scum, because it can be entirely true! Ico might be trying to make lemon's posts fit Ico's narrative, but that doesn't actually mean that lemon is town, it doesn't say anything about the truth of lemon's alignment. You could post this as scum and be 100% honest in doing so, it's the type of posting I try to gravitate towards when I am scum.

this post is actually kind of disgusting in disguise right

at first it doesn't look like much, but the longer you stare at it for, the worst it smells. things that stood out to me:

since there's not much time left

we really aren't that close to deadline, are we? 5 days and some is nearly half of it; i wouldn't even

start

to worry about it until there were 3 days on the clock or so

lemon said it was "interesting" how Ico "spun" him as helping scum!Yankee, but this "interesting" thing doesn't seem to have shaped his read at all. Lemon repeatedly

says

that he's curious how Ico would acknowledge/respond to this point, but his actions don't really indicate it - he's still townreading Ico, he isn't really pushing or diving into the heart of Ico misunderstanding him, and further just mostly concludes that he thinks Ico is town tunneling.

I'm having a hard time seeing this as more likely to come from town - if townies were townreading someone who was misreading them due to a misunderstanding, they'd point out the misunderstanding and try to work with the other player to get them to re-evaluate with that in mind. If the other player continued to push incorrectly, I think townies would be less certain about the intentions behind that push - but lemonator feels to me like he's scared to scumread Ico.

he's repeatedly prompted ico for a response, which he never really got - just because someone tunnels you (as town), it doesn't mean you have to scumread them

on the other hand, scum!lemon may be more likely to try to both simultaneously shade and defuse the situation in the way he has tried to do here. He wants other players to doubt Ico based on this misunderstanding (124), but doesn't want to commit to a read change or risk further aggression from a town!Ico himself (172).

except this never actually happen, did it? he didn't try to defuse the situation at all - he has been asking essentially the same unanswered questions for about 70 posts or so. I'd really like to see a transparent reply to his questions, too

*drumroll*

and here ladies and gentlemen we have the scummiest spin of the century

This is actually a sneaky good post to make as scum, because it can be entirely true! Ico might be trying to make lemon's posts fit Ico's narrative, but that doesn't actually mean that lemon is town, it doesn't say anything about the truth of lemon's alignment. You could post this as scum and be 100% honest in doing so, it's the type of posting I try to gravitate towards when I am scum.

you picked out a quote that was kinda weird, and then essentially went "he's scum for saying that! but that could also come from town! and it doesn't say anything about the truth of his alignment! but he's scum for doing that because that's what i do!"

this is actual garbage
VOTE: guiltylion

What I'm seeing is that accusing people of buddying or calling their posts "weird" isn't alignment indicative for Osuka, but in the town game, Osuka had no issues back up those accusations with precisely which posts he thought fit the bill and why they pinged him as scummy.

[Nauci]

Sure, I'll explain. If you keep soft defending Glitch, you are Scum with him.

Glitch's content has been objectively bad not really offering any new insights, and generally just jumping on the next popular wagon.

How was I defending Glitch in any way?

I don't town read Glitch, I have them as null because I don't have a read on the slot.

I see that you have a strong enough scum read there to vote him and maintain that vote despite being suspicious of Osuka and suspicious of me, so I went to find your case on Glitch and see if it had merit.

All I really found was that you gut scum read him and think that his wallposts are scummier than NDMath, so I'm asking you why you think so. If you're town and you think he's scum and you want more people to vote there, why is it scummy if I ask you for your case? Why is your response just to get defensive and accuse me of being scum with Glitch? Hell I don't even know what your read on me is because you've gone from defending me to Osuka, to suspecting me as scum with Osuka, to now suspecting me as scum with Glitch?

I think that the cases and votes are all over the place right now while many town don't have good reads on anything so I'm casing my scum read and trying to build a wagon while asking you to do the same.

[Nauci]

@mavs What do you make of Osuka?

Pending some more research on NBEE, I think that we're more likely to hit scum there than NBEE for aforementioned WIFOM reasons. Do you disagree?

@GuiltyLion you were in that newbie game with Osuka, so what's your take on my read?

[NorwegianboyEE]

I don’t think town!Norweigan jumps from SR’ing GuiltyLion as recently as 729 & 735 to picking the “safest” option of Quickety’s suggestions and then votes Nauci after osuka’s blessing in 761.

I've stated being suspicious of Nauci since way before Osuka's supposed "blessing".
Don't know why you find it scummy that i'd switch my vote either. A lot of people were screaming at me for not considering other possibilities than GL!scum. Now i did.

[NorwegianboyEE]

So my argument is that scum!Norweigan after pushing GuiltyLion on TWO separate occasions realized he wasn’t going to get a mislynch then rapidly picked some other target in Nauci off your post,

I townread Quick. Why is me listening to my townread and considering whether i might be wrong scummy?

[NorwegianboyEE]

Don't know why i'm getting shaded for Osuka agreeing with me anyway. Here's a news flash, i don't scumread Osuka. My go to scumreads with the assumption of GL!Town right now are Nauci and Glitch.