Newbie 2012 - Game Over

[WaltertheDunce10]

What makes you so certain the replacement will not respond?

[UNOwen]

What makes you so certain the replacement will not respond?

They won't be able to speak for pi so they won't be able to respond to the argument. It's like building a case against a dead man, it's a bit opportunistic. I don't disagree that pi's posts were UTR but GuiltyLion was not so extensive in justifying his previous votes so it struck out.

[GuiltyLion]

GL and Walter voting on an inactive slot does not bode well with me considering that there are so many active slots in the game

I don't vote people based on whether they're active or inactive, I vote them based on how likely I think they are to be scum. Why is Walter a good vote?

[GuiltyLion]

They won't be able to speak for pi so they won't be able to respond to the argument. It's like building a case against a dead man, it's a bit opportunistic. I don't disagree that pi's posts were UTR but GuiltyLion was not so extensive in justifying his previous votes so it struck out.

I don't really expect a pi replacement to respond to my points, my case isn't for pi's eyes, it's for everyone else's.

I did put a lot more effort/energy into that post but that's because prior to that I didn't feel I had a real foothold in the game or any conviction in my reads yet, and now I feel I've got one and I intend to match my effort accordingly

[GuiltyLion]

72offsuit, there's a bunch of stuff I want to work with in your posts but this is a quick pop in during lunch break so I don't have time to do it justice yet, I'll be back with more #content over the next few hours.

[GuiltyLion]

Your townread of Uno is extremely lame and feels disingenuous. Im paraphrasing here, but It seems to me to boil down to:

"His response did not particularly feel scummy" - this is a garbage reason to town read someone. This is a NAI thing, AT BEST.

"Reasoning for voting IVD was earnest", is also pretty lame.

I'll start with this though

that post was explaining my Uno townread

at the time that I gave it

. There's been a bunch more in Unowen's posts since that I've also found town-indicative, but I admittedly didn't go through a ton of effort to explain it at the time or afterwards, because I knew I wanted to do another review of the entire game so far and because I still don't think it actually helps town all that much to wax poetic at length about why you think people are town. I generally think it's far more useful to dig into reasons for scumreads than townreads, because scumreads are the ones that scum can't fake. It's way easier to fake a townread on a town slot, and frankly if I were scum and I was townreading a town!UNOwen I can promise you I'd be able to write a pretty convincing sounding case if I needed to.

Why do you say it's "disingenuous"? and more importantly, do you scumread UNOwen? Or are you just trying to push back on my intentions?

as long as you don't think Owen and I are literally scum together, then either:
-I'm scum and UNOwen is town and we can at least both agree UNOwen is town and off the table for a lynch today (which I think is useful)
-I'm town and UNOwen is town, in which case arguing about my reasons for townreading UNOwen just muddies the waters around both of our slots for no gain to town
-I'm town and UNOwen is scum, in which case I would say the more important thing for you to be doing here is

casing

UNOwen and making an effort to convince me I'm wrong, rather than saying my townread is "lame".

So if you want to suss me out as for why I have that read, feel free, but if you are townreading UNOwen yourself then I'd like to keep that mutual townread established and centered as I think that's important, and if you don't actually think UNOwen is town then I would expect more from you in terms of casing and pushing him, instead of picking a fight with me.

[GuiltyLion]

GL and Walter voting on an inactive slot does not bode well with me considering that there are so many active slots in the game

I don't vote people based on whether they're active or inactive, I vote them based on how likely I think they are to be scum. Why is Walter a good vote?

also DoctorPepper in addendum to this, I'd like an update on your read on 72offsuit. You were scumreading him earlier, I gave some reasons as to why I think he might be scum, I find it strange that now you pivot to Walter and toss some suspicion at me instead of potentially working with me on 72offsuit.

[72offsuit]

72offsuit, there's a bunch of stuff I want to work with in your posts but this is a quick pop in during lunch break so I don't have time to do it justice yet, I'll be back with more #content over the next few hours.

GL and Walter voting on an inactive slot does not bode well with me considering that there are so many active slots in the game

I don't vote people based on whether they're active or inactive, I vote them based on how likely I think they are to be scum. Why is Walter a good vote?

also DoctorPepper in addendum to this, I'd like an update on your read on 72offsuit. You were scumreading him earlier, I gave some reasons as to why I think he might be scum, I find it strange that now you pivot to Walter and toss some suspicion at me instead of potentially working with me on 72offsuit.

What's the point in these bite-size posts and the overly-explaininy, "this is just a quick pop in"? Just address my post in full.

[72offsuit]

We've got like 5 days to deadline

[GuiltyLion]

What's the point in these bite-size posts and the overly-explaininy, "this is just a quick pop in"? Just address my post in full.

how is it "over-explainy", what? all I was saying is that I've read your 234 and I know I want to respond to it, but I don't have time yet.

[GuiltyLion]

and 256 has a pretty clear and intentional point to it

[WaltertheDunce10]

72, you seemed quick to respond to guiltylion, while the sudden posting is surprising, i find it sort suspect that you question lion when he was asking for someone else read on you
How is the fact there are 5 days relevant except the fact that a lot can change in that time

[72offsuit]

Your townread of Uno is extremely lame and feels disingenuous. Im paraphrasing here, but It seems to me to boil down to:

"His response did not particularly feel scummy" - this is a garbage reason to town read someone. This is a NAI thing, AT BEST.

"Reasoning for voting IVD was earnest", is also pretty lame.

I'll start with this though

that post was explaining my Uno townread

at the time that I gave it

. There's been a bunch more in Unowen's posts since that I've also found town-indicative, but I admittedly didn't go through a ton of effort to explain it at the time or afterwards, because I knew I wanted to do another review of the entire game so far and because I still don't think it actually helps town all that much to wax poetic at length about why you think people are town. I generally think it's far more useful to dig into reasons for scumreads than townreads, because scumreads are the ones that scum can't fake. It's way easier to fake a townread on a town slot, and frankly

if I were scum and I was townreading a town!UNOwen I can promise you I'd be able to write a pretty convincing sounding case if I needed to.

Why do you say it's "disingenuous"? and more importantly, do you scumread UNOwen? Or are you just trying to push back on my intentions?

as long as you don't think Owen and I are literally scum together, then either:
-I'm scum and UNOwen is town and we can at least both agree UNOwen is town and off the table for a lynch today (which I think is useful)
-I'm town and UNOwen is town, in which case arguing about my reasons for townreading UNOwen just muddies the waters around both of our slots for no gain to town
-I'm town and UNOwen is scum, in which case I would say the more important thing for you to be doing here is

casing

UNOwen and making an effort to convince me I'm wrong, rather than saying my townread is "lame".

So if you want to suss me out as for why I have that read, feel free, but if you are townreading UNOwen yourself then I'd like to keep that mutual townread established and centered as I think that's important, and if you don't actually think UNOwen is town then I would expect more from you in terms of casing and pushing him, instead of picking a fight with me.

1. Self-meta'ing, see bolded above. This is bad.

2. Yes, I scumread UNO and I;ve said as much. Why are you asking this? It just sounds like you are trying to shade me here.

3. I said it feels disingenuous because thats how I felt reading the post.

4. OK, the second bolded part is an excellent point and actually feels town +++.
It requires you to elaborate on your TR of him though.
The problem is I feel this is the sort of thing thats better to do post a flip (i.e on day 2). Not trying to put words in your mouth, but what it sounds like to me is that you are intentionally or perhaps not (along with your de-railing of the thread direction, whether it be in !townGLgood-faith or with !GLscum ill-will, with your pii+72 likely scum post), but it still being the end-product: proprosing a day 1 solve, which is nigh impossible.

[72offsuit]

What's the point in these bite-size posts and the overly-explaininy, "this is just a quick pop in"? Just address my post in full.

how is it "over-explainy", what? all I was saying is that I've read your 234 and I know I want to respond to it, but I don't have time yet.

You are self-justifying, which again, noone asked for, which is scummy.

[72offsuit]

and 256 has a pretty clear and intentional point to it

I never said it was unclear or had no intention. It just feels like a classic scum move to just spin BS as you go by picking random points in a post, rather than deal with the whole post of mine, in its entirely, in context.

[72offsuit]

72, you seemed quick to respond to guiltylion, while the sudden posting is surprising, i find it sort suspect that you question lion when he was asking for someone else read on you
How is the fact there are 5 days relevant except the fact that a lot can change in that time

I'm online now and checked the thread. Why is the "sudden posting surprising"?

Why is it suspect of me to question lion, after he has derailed the trajectory of the thread?

I posted the 5-day-deadline with regards to me just saying that there is no rush to have to break up the points in my post, rather than posting in entirety.

[WaltertheDunce10]

Both you and lion seemed sudden for posting

K why do you think lion is derailing the thread for then if scum?

[TheThirteenthJT]

i really like 45 and 48 from 72offsuit, particularly 45? doctorpepper from what i see didn't answer it but i think it might be good to hear doctorpepper explain what they think 72offsuit gains from pushing on them. i presume it would be to discredit doctorpepper, but given that in 39 doctorpepper said they were already finding 72 scummy i'd like to hear the why behind it all.

Hey everyone. I'm coming in witH the two following questions that I would like all to answer please. Mostly for fun since it's so early in the game.

1) Random guess or analysis of what we have so far, take a crack at the scumteam. Who is the mafia team in this game?
2) If you were mafia in this game, who would you like to be your partner, or who would most likely be your partner.

i think that so far, doctorpepper's pinged me because they seemed to jump on the defensive when it came to 72 (@doctorpepper, i'd still like to hear why you thought 72 was scummy), and then you as well. your second question in particular set me off a bit too when i read it earlier, because i don't really get why you think it's a good one despite your explanation? also, i guess that asking number one is a baseline sort of thing that i could see as a scum player asking in an effort to seem helpful/game-solvey. it doesn't seem to have too much weight towards scumhunting behind it right now.

dwelling on the second question, i can only think that later down the line it might help to go back if someone flips and see who they said, but there could be a myriad of reasons why and i don't think that it's a rewarding enough question to think too hard upon.

VOTE: TheThirteenthJT

(REGARDLESS. you for another god-hammer and fun game in 2009!)

other than that:

unowen: why did you put jt as your second scum option? (58)
pii: who do you think is scum, if you think italiano's post is nai? (65)
guiltylion: why do you have the trs that you do? (63)
walter: why did you put doctorpepper as your second scum option? (69)

okay, i think i should be caught up now w the thread and i'll be around a bit to talk!

Just noticed this. Ydrasse you questioned my questions motives and then used some of their answer to formulate follow up questions immediately after.

This goes for everyone, did you all take a look at my explanation for that question, especially if your opposed it. Be The players that did not answer it were Pii, DrPepper, and guilty lion, but I had quite a few others who stated their opposition of it.

I'm doing a reread by the way and going to be pointing out any thing I missed. I also want to out up my full readlist after this.

[TheThirteenthJT]

This is a newbie, and with newbie games come the misconception of "scum want to push easy mislynches". The last newbie game I played, I won as scum not by pushing for mislynches but because I intentionally stayed under the radar. I hard defended the day 1 mislynch, knowing full well that it will flip town. The rest of the mislynches I joined but I never drove the wagon, I found flimsy reasons to do it. So Italiano, while I don't think it automatically means you're scummy, it's odd that you're painting it as such because I am pushing for your mislynch.

I’m not familiar with that meta, but I can’t just completely throw out that thought process because I know you didn’t say that, but my point is if that

I mean I agree, being reactionary and painting a target on your back isn't a good way to play scum.

That doesn't necessarily mean that you won't do it.

This is very true and you can’t rule out that possibility. But I promise you that in only my second game I am definitely not be bold enough to make a move like that.

In fact that's weird that you're scum reading people just because they're voting you.

Why? I don’t think it’s weird at all imo. If a player knows that they are townie then to me it’s logical for them to think that the people voting for them is suspicious, especially when the reasoning is somewhat weak. As a matter of fact I think scum would refrain from revenge voting and would be more inclined to either look elsewhere or try to befriend their voter(s). Again I’m not familiar with the site’s meta and how newbie games go, but I assume things are the same and that’s the information I go by.

If either of us were scum, why did we single you out as the mislynch of the day?

If your vote was random and if UNOwen’s vote was random then I wouldn’t have had a problem with it, but because your vote was specifically due to my RVS vote and shortly after UNOwen piggybacking off of that my suspicions went up. Hence the reason why I said you two seemed opportunistic two find a reason for mislynch.

I don't understand what you mean by thumbing your nose in that post Italiano.

And I'm not mirroring your actions. I have my own play and I'm following through on it. If you think it mirrors you it is coincidental. I have not town cleared you either so think I haven't been looking at your posts either. So far I see you as a player who has been out on a bad spot early and is of course paranoid to be lynched day one in both their games. Which is why I can see others saying you are being defensive.

Thank you, I want to clarify my thoughts on this.

Ydrasse while your right the first question isn't really scumhunting, don't we all want to say we solved the game day 1? Bragging rights! That's why I said it's mostly a fun question.

As to the second one, I'm experimenting with RQS and I think it is a valid questions to ask this early in the game. Like I said, I have reasons for it and want to see how well it serves me. And it's not so much relatied to looking back at it down the road. More of a now reason. And directly related to question number 1,

the fun part of question number two for scum would be looking back at engame and having been bold to actually put your partner down here would incredible for them. Bragging rights!

The bolded kind of sounds like a bold scum saying what they're going to do and then doing it, since no one could believe that the scum would be that bold to do it. And then your response sounds a little too gitty. But I just have a vivid imagination and I've been a wolf countless times when playing the wolf variation of this game and I've done bold moves like that before. Anyway, it's probably nothing and I'd rather deal with what's more likely than what's possible.

You know what, I will say I feel he is leaning town as I post this. I normally don't like town reading people because I feel it backfires on me a lot. I just see an excited player early.

What do you mean it backfires on you? How so?

Right now my guess on scum is definetly at minimum one very experience player. (SE or not). How often do newbie games feature two SE scum players?

Interesting. There are 3 SE's in the game (Guilty, Doctor, and 72). Not sure if anyone else has equal or more experience. You've already mentioned you weren't really looking at DoctorPepper anymore, so what are your reads on Guilty and 72?

So far on my questions I don't see answers for
Guiltylion
DrPepper
Italiano
Piisirrational

Just let me know if you have no intentions of answering my questions so I can explain why I did it. Thank you

It seems like the answers would change the deeper into Day 1 we get right, but I don't mind answering it.
If I had to guess the scum team, I'd say UNOwen and piisirrational
If I had to choose a partner I'd have to say 72 or Hobbes (GuiltyLion)

Bolded Italianos statements on boldness. At first in response to a questions he says he is not bold enough to out a target on his back. Then in response to one of my posts he calls me out for potentially being bold scum with my question and claims it's so etching he would be bold enough to do or have done. A clear contradiction.

[TheThirteenthJT]

I find the whole modvote situation to have been artificially blown up. This sets my eyes early on Doctorpepper.

VOTE: Doctorpepper

I also don't like this vote

Why do you choose to describe it as "artificial"? What is the scum motive to play the way Doctorpepper is playing, and why is that more likely than town!Doctorpepper trying to find scum?

VOTE: TheThirteenthJT

I called it artificial because that what it looks like. Basically I need a reason to start a push on someone to make myself useful to the town on page one, get early scumhunting credit and zoom out. I've seen this done before and always pings me early in games. Both Doctorpepper and Uno have done this with what I found to be a lol vote by Italiano.

Now don't get me wrong. Early game voting is always a crapshoot. So since Italiano was receiving early game pressure, I want to pressure the counterside and see reactions as well. Thus my vote.

1) Random guess or analysis of what we have so far, take a crack at the scumteam. Who is the mafia team in this game?
2) If you were mafia in this game, who would you like to be your partner, or who would most likely be your partner.

on the other hand, I don't really like these questions, they don't seem very likely to actually lead to useful content. We should always be talking about 1) in the general sense constantly anyways, and 2) is just a WIFOM fest

I really feel that town has nothing to lose by answering those questions. It can alert us of anyone potentially buddying us early in the game and gives us something to look back at later as the game progresses.

I do agree we should be sharing our reads constantly throughout the game. This is just a fun little encouragement to do so this early in.

Now as to the second point, I don't think WiFOM is all bad. I rather not answer why until more people answer the question. Then I will feel free explaining what I like about this question. This is also a trial run question for me.

I agree on your points, so far I would say my scum team would be 72 and Doctorpepper
2. Probably Guiltylion,
I am not sure why 72 would push for my lynch so quickly, it seems off to me.

VOTE: 72offsuit

I now upon a reread think that last question could be used by scum to change their play in a subtle way.
I would like to know your thinking on the last one and why it is important?
If town, my feeling is that it is a test, but a sloppy one, which, an experienced player would be able to better conduct in a better fashion.
This only adds to my scum read as it gives scum an easy out and ability to adjust.

on another note, Anyone else find it odd that piisirrational popped up answered 72's questions and then dissapeared.

I agree,
VOTE: piisirrational slot

That's three times I've counted Walter change targets based on others reads. During my rearead I noticed it twice and decided to ISO him on this.

[TheThirteenthJT]

I find the whole modvote situation to have been artificially blown up. This sets my eyes early on Doctorpepper.

VOTE: Doctorpepper

I also don't like this vote

Why do you choose to describe it as "artificial"? What is the scum motive to play the way Doctorpepper is playing, and why is that more likely than town!Doctorpepper trying to find scum?

VOTE: TheThirteenthJT

I called it artificial because that what it looks like. Basically I need a reason to start a push on someone to make myself useful to the town on page one, get early scumhunting credit and zoom out. I've seen this done before and always pings me early in games. Both Doctorpepper and Uno have done this with what I found to be a lol vote by Italiano.

Now don't get me wrong. Early game voting is always a crapshoot. So since Italiano was receiving early game pressure, I want to pressure the counterside and see reactions as well. Thus my vote.

1) Random guess or analysis of what we have so far, take a crack at the scumteam. Who is the mafia team in this game?
2) If you were mafia in this game, who would you like to be your partner, or who would most likely be your partner.

on the other hand, I don't really like these questions, they don't seem very likely to actually lead to useful content. We should always be talking about 1) in the general sense constantly anyways, and 2) is just a WIFOM fest

I really feel that town has nothing to lose by answering those questions. It can alert us of anyone potentially buddying us early in the game and gives us something to look back at later as the game progresses.

I do agree we should be sharing our reads constantly throughout the game. This is just a fun little encouragement to do so this early in.

Now as to the second point, I don't think WiFOM is all bad. I rather not answer why until more people answer the question. Then I will feel free explaining what I like about this question. This is also a trial run question for me.

I agree on your points, so far I would say my scum team would be 72 and Doctorpepper
2. Probably Guiltylion,
I am not sure why 72 would push for my lynch so quickly, it seems off to me.

VOTE: 72offsuit

I now upon a reread think that last question could be used by scum to change their play in a subtle way.
I would like to know your thinking on the last one and why it is important?
If town, my feeling is that it is a test, but a sloppy one, which, an experienced player would be able to better conduct in a better fashion.
This only adds to my scum read as it gives scum an easy out and ability to adjust.

on another note, Anyone else find it odd that piisirrational popped up answered 72's questions and then dissapeared.

Walter had been agreeing with me on my DRpepper push but never voted for him, his vote stayed on Ydrasse. He then had DrPepper and 72 as his scum team and it took him quite a while to vote 72, but not because of his original reads, instead because I called out question number 3 by 72.

[WaltertheDunce10]

@ Everyone:

1) What is your experience with playing mafia?
2) Do you prefer playing town or scum?
3) What do you think of the Policy lynch of Lynch All Lurkers?

Well I’ve played the wolf game variation on a boxing forum I’ve been a member of since probably 2006, but this would be my second actual mafiascum.net game.

I prefer being town/villager because I like trying to

find

the puzzle piece instead of having it.

Note completely sure of the policy per se, but I’m always of the opinion that if you seem disinterested and don’t contribute you shouldn’t have signed up to play and hence I have no problem lynching.

This bolding from italiano seems deliberate.
I am probably reading too much into it.

[Micc]

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[Micc]

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[Micc]

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