Mini Normal 2148 (Post Game)

[notscience]

Oh part 2 of that post was talking about hk

[stungun0404]

yeah im also a bit unsure about the dunn wagon... maybe all three scum got on there?

there's a lead... hk is scum. he was on the dunnstral wagon pushing it as the 4th vote for literally no reason, and voteparked there a very long time (in fact I think he might still be there). But the only reason he ever said Dunnstral was scummy was "I agree with what others have to say." Nothing original, and yet he was that convicted? That is scummy.

I mean, he even prodged at one point saying "Dunnstral is still scummy". How was he, as town, that convicted that he comes out of a prodge with still no original reasoning of his own for voteparking on Dunn as it was a majority wagon?

[votato]

yeah but who pushed it initially, and where did it come from?

[notscience]

Wasn’t the original concept behind scumreading him associative with votato and bm

[stungun0404]

(,

First is post 325, which introduces the lead in read progression on genermitn. I dont mind this in isolation or from part of votato's post 324 since votato was a bit more vocal about the slot.

I could see Town!stungun attempting to do a reaction test to see if votato hard commits to scum reading germ.

As a form of survival for example. However, stungun already knew that votato liked their case on germ from the same post (324) meaning such an test would already be flawed. For votato to commit to the scum read, all he would have to do is analyze what part of the case he agrees or disagrees with. Its 326 and 328 though that begins to draw the line between a bad test and stungun having different motives.

All in all, I dont believe the votato interaction by stungun was done for what was claimed.

I wouldnt be surprised if Dunnstral is scum and stungun picked to pressure other LHFesk players in a bid to protect Dunnstral.

So everyone can see, this is where my scum!ping of HK really started to take hold. First of all, he assumes that I used a reaction test and used that as the only reasoning he could possibly think of to support me being town there. That is a relatively unlikely reason for me to do something, and it is scummy to paint me into a corner and say that the only town perspective I can see out of stungun here is for that post to be a reaction test -- and then make an entire case of me being scummy because of what he wrongly assumed was a reaction test. Knowing I am town of course, which you cannot prove yet, this struck me as really scummy. I don't think town ever favors that really rather unlikely scenario for the only way he believes I could be town here.

He is believing a very unlikely scenario in it being done for a reaction test, and makes a whole damn case off of it. That is why I think HK is clearly scum. He is favoring extremely unlikely scenarios (again, possibility > probability), but he is taking it to the most extreme form with the reaction test argument.

[stungun0404]

Votato, I am going to sort through your meta to see if I confirm what you said about your activity levels.

In the meantime, would you be willing to vote geriantm?

It was in response to this post of mine.

If he is town, wouldn't he more likely think this could be where I want Vot's vote to go, or where I want to get pressure? And not assume the only case is that it was a reaction test?

[Green Crayons]

Wasn’t the original concept behind scumreading him associative with votato and bm

yeah but who pushed it initially, and where did it come from?

Why do I feel like you already know this answer?

[Green Crayons]

That was to votato

[Green Crayons]

I know I og suspected Dunn for voting Mala for reasons that he had pushed. (I forget what that was.)

Farside picked it up and ran with it tunneling for a long time.

[Green Crayons]

Not sure what other threads I’d suspicion were tbh

[HK 50]

I ask as at the moment i'm in a slight town reading mala. In my experience scum tends to avoid jumping on rvs wagons when they have already stacked up 3 votes. Either mala is scum and unafraid of the spotlight or as i feel at the moment a fellow townie that simply does not have anything to fear in the first place.

Only seen twice scum on 4thed place on rvs wagon. One was when scum was being rvs wagoned and the other was a scum player that spent much of the rest of the game jumping on wagons.


And mala comments on hk feel that it matches that pattern as well. Of a anotehr townie that inst afraid to get their neck stuck in and let thier views be known.

In my experience scum dont like being caught on large wagon in vs.

Take my last completed mini. Although i was on losing side if you looked back at day one. scum rvs voted me and as soon as i picked up my 4th vote. That Scum player was teh first to jump off. And infact tried to distance them selves from that wagon.

[Clarification:]

Expect you gave a strong case for why such a behavior is scummy and even provide evidence that scum tends to not commit to higher bandwagons in random voting stage. I'm aware it isn't identical, but my situation has aspects of that which to my photoreceptors indicates there should be some feeling one way or another based on my unvote.

I said theorically I'm scum from your point of view due in part by your own admission you were confused to why I am asking you this line of queries. I don't particularly care what the actual alignment is, but rather your thought process behind it in order to gague your master malakitten read.

[Demand:]

Look at that specific interaction of me unvoting. You given me the range I fall in, but only off the logic of me misconducting processing your point. Disregard that and analyze that temporal moment in space. What range would you rank that unvote to be in?

Your vote change from NS seems rather logical and well considered. It doesn't look to me like rash scum trying to get off. As i would have expected your vote change if you were scum to be more to the point. Abrupt even, while not really even making much acknowledging the change.

If there is scum on that rvs wagon of NS then my gut feeling is that if my read on you is right that you would have beaten them to the chase.

As far my slight town reads are you and mala. So if that rvs wagon wasn't all town then scum are likely in dunstral and pepper. Dunstals change was just sudden. Following the pushes of far and NS but with little extra input given. While peppers was little better but in reaction to Dunstals mala vote.

Now the question is. Was that rvs wagon all town. Which i have seen quite a few times and happens more than not.

Looking back at this interaction, I *really* don't like how HK baited bob into explaining to the town why bob saw HK's actions as town.

HK, I'd love to hear how your prompting supposedly came from a town POV.

303

This point as already been brought up and explained days ago.

And according to his logic presented about RVS wagons (in the quotes you left out) it would of prompted a scum read on me.

You never explained how a read on mala somehow would as you say prompt a scum read of your slot. A read based on the fact that scum rarely in my experience jump on rvs wagon when it already has 3 votes. And are in fact more likely to jump off then.

For some reason you kept trying to draw parallels between a wagon in another game I mentioned. Where 3 players had voted me outside of rvs and a scum player who only had rvs vote on me jumped off. That somehow mavs unvote directly parreled with yours. That an unvote of a legacy rvs vote that had been caught up in wagon on a townie. That was only apparent on day 3 and that I actually found townie at the time. Somehow directly compared to yours. A vote that was placed during rvs and a vote that was moved shortly after rvs. Why would you expect me to scum read you at the time if you are town. when i never scum read mav at the time.



Also why did you think at the time that the first thing that i would assume is that scum must be on the wagon. Feels like a loaded perspective. Instead you start with a leading question of why I don't scum read you. Looking back if you were coming from townie POV i would have expected you to simply ask is there anyone on that wagon you scum read. Instead you tried to make it all about you.

Not really because I did explain it.

As stated, i found the logic to be somewhat applicable to me because of how I understood your underlying logic: scum is less likely to want to be put into the spotlight via their RVS vote and tends to avoid being in that position.

I also admitted in 303 that I fucked up and made the reaction test that went alongside the question leading.

Now can you answer the question about you ATE leading farside?

[stungun0404]

Votato, I am going to sort through your meta to see if I confirm what you said about your activity levels.

In the meantime, would you be willing to vote geriantm?

It was in response to this post of mine.

If he is town, wouldn't he more likely think this could be where I want Vot's vote to go, or where I want to get pressure? And not assume the only case

where I am town here

is if that it was a reaction test?

EBWOP

[HK 50]

Now that's a red flag from stungun as I was scrolling up.

(Please be aware that there are approximately 13 pages since I last picked up, so in the interest of not clogging the thread I'm not talking about every post. If there is something I missed that you are dying to know my take on, let me know. Otherwise I'm just getting what I feel is important)

Spoiler: stungun votato interaction

Lol, that's funny enough to get me to move off your wagon

VOTE: Votato

probably town? Dunno, there are mostly just questions coming from hk and not much analysis

Not a bad point. Would like to see HK produce an analysis when they get the chance.

probably town? Dunno, there are mostly just questions coming from hk and not much analysis

I will say, I don't really like that your vote is on HK if you think he is probably town... we are past RVS.

@Votato, who do you think is most likely scum between geraintm, Dunnstral and Green Crayons?

If you give me a good enough response to this, I may be moved to vote elsewhere, so I really want to see some serious thought applied here.

@Votato:

are you apathetic as scum?

generally im very active as scum. in my completed games so far that's very much been my meta. will have an update soon that we can discuss. but as scum i'm always engaged on day 1 at least. as town im frequently bored day 1 and dont really pick up my posting much until later in the game. day 1 sucks, but it mostly sucks when you're town.

i do much prefer playing as scum.

@stungun, im not sure that id say any of them are scum. none of them have really posted enough for me to get reads on them. my gut would say geraintm? i liked the case someone made there. wasnt that you?

i can point to a few towngames where i was very lurky day 1 until pressure mounted on me. day 1 pressure on me is good to get me active and posting, but it isnt so good for my reads. when im allowed to just lurk and observe for a bit, my reads tend to be very good. i will also say that im still figuring out how to approach day 1, and so my playstyle probably alters quite a bit from game to game.

notsci is an interesting slot FMPOV. notsci may have a slight bias towards scumreading me. especially when i lurk. so that made me initially townread notsci's push on me. but im also somewhat convinced by people attacking notsci for the lazy vote. but the lazy vote could again be explained by a bias towards scumreading me.

Votato, I am going to sort through your meta to see if I confirm what you said about your activity levels.

In the meantime, would you be willing to vote geriantm?

Reason I ask is I am willing to go there, but it seems like there is a lack of push, and that makes it difficult to get anything going there.

uh id have to take a quick look back over the ISO and your(?) case, but i think so. you want me to do that?

my scumgames are animals upick (probably not that helpful since i was caught super early and hardbussed by the whole scumteam), and micro 938: butterfly mafia.
newbie 2006 is a game where i lurked and basically got killed for it as town. there are others but id have to go look to see which ones they are.

Yeah, at the moment that is the only wagon which I would really like switching to.

You were town in this game and were very active at the start (22 posts on the first day and then a big analysis immediately starting the next day), which contradicts the activity argument.
https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.p ... #p11763957

And so did the newbie 2006 game you cited, you had 12 posts on the first day the game was available.
https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.p ... #p11902283

This game, you had 3 posts and then disappeared for about 3 days, until a wagon formed on you.

While you may be fairly active in some of your scum games, this evidence does not suggest that in your town games you are always lurking at the start. Thus, I don't think this initial analysis into your gameplay is very alignment-indicative, as it seems you are breaking pattern regardless of alignment.

OK, when you return, you know who I would like you to look into. In the meantime, I have no reason to move off of you because I honestly cannot verify from your meta that you are telling the truth.

Just noting that the vote on Votato is now L-2.

Be careful adding another vote, because votato could self-hammer, or someone else could before we get the chance to hear back from Votato, ending the day phase sooner than preferable.

so i painstakingly went over geraintm's entire ISO. there isnt even a an attempt to pretend to scumhunt. that slot definitely deserves pressure, but he is so brazen that I'm guessing town over scum actually. maybe. i dunno, its worth voting there and forcing some effort out of the slot.

The dunn thing does actually seem like a plausible scumslip.

*votato pushes BM a bit*

GC has a fair point, geraintm is still voting not science based off RVS reasoning, which is just a very lazy vote park that is not seemingly going to get us anywhere this day phase. I'm not real fond of it.

If he's town, it's as though he is playing a scared game, and I also don't really like that. If he is scum, it makes sense; he wants to stay in the background.

@GC: if you had to guess, what do you think geraintm's alignment is?

Does anyone have experience with scum Dunnstral? I have only played with town Dunnstral as scum to my recollection (2 times).

I know that as town he is not the hardest player to sort, but he still is a little bit tricky. He is easier to sort than nm for sure.

Also, he might get easier by the day, but he also might not. So I am not totally against a lynch there, but would just prefer to keep him in for two reasons. One is he is one of the few players I have experience with, so I might be able to read him better as the game progresses. And two, I do not really find what he has done so far to be super scummy, and if anything the push against him gives me a slight intuition he might be town. I could be wrong there, and I would like to see him post more, but I am not super suspicious.

I do think it is very likely, however, that if one Votato/Dunn is scum, the other is not, and should be assumed to be town. I just don't see them as connected, as votato has made very little mention of Dunn in his posts and Dunn throwing votato out of the blue as a scum partner to someone... wouldn't seem like the smartest plan if they were scum partners? I mean, that's a little bold, drawing that much attention to you

and

your partner?

Stungun's interaction and handling of Votato was the first thing that popped out to me, mainly due to the formers actions.

There are points of the interaction where I doubt the genuineness of the votato push by them was for pressure, and rather, was a set up to further a push on germ.

First is post 325, which introduces the lead in read progression on genermitn. I dont mind this in isolation or from part of votato's post 324 since votato was a bit more vocal about the slot. I could see Town!stungun attempting to do a reaction test to see if votato hard commits to scum reading germ. As a form of survival for example. However, stungun already knew that votato liked their case on germ from the same post (324) meaning such an test would already be flawed. For votato to commit to the scum read, all he would have to do is analyze what part of the case he agrees or disagrees with. Its 326 and 328 though that begins to draw the line between a bad test and stungun having different motives.

In order to understand why 326 and 328 are problematic, we need to look at votato's 350. I know, it may seem werid to prove the past with the future, but in this case the later actions of stungun helps highlight the importance of the eariler ones. 350 is votato's analysis of germ. Which even he admits to farside is wishy washy. What's intresting about this post is that

stungun post after this doesn't remotely try to analyze this and instead voices support for germ. Remember, stungun wanted to see critical thinking from votato and more importantly just had a reason to doubt votato further over concluding that the meta defense was NAI. I would conclude if somebody i accused of needing to make more logical content made a washy analysis and went on to self admit it, that they may infact warrant further analysis.

That wasn't the case. Coupled with posts like 326 and 328, I dont feel stungun really cared about reading votato and wanted to simply push germ, giving the illusion they cared about sorting votato while trying to convince him to hop on. Posts after the meta case, 339, also support this.

Further, I can see why scum!stungun would want to have votato on that wagon: scapegoat. Assuming scum!stungun and town!germ., votato would of look horrendous if the mislynch went through having hoped on while being pressured. This buys mafia another free lynch potentially without much effort. Depending on if someone like Dunn

All in all, I dont believe the votato interaction by stungun was done for what was claimed. I wouldnt be surprised if Dunnstral is scum and stungun picked to pressure other LHFesk players in a bid to protect Dunnstral.

(Catching up)

^Also thanks stungun for ignoring to quote the parts of 607 that say "I dont think the pressuring/germ is genuine" and gives more reasons to why I had scum pings on you besides "didnt do a reaction test".

Why did you cut those parts out?

[votato]

Wasn’t the original concept behind scumreading him associative with votato and bm

yeah but who pushed it initially, and where did it come from?

Why do I feel like you already know this answer?

nope. that would take *effort* and an attention span of more than 5 seconds.

[stungun0404]

And yet I had voted geraintm at an earlier point and clearly indicated that I was OK with him getting pressure? Did you happen to miss that?

I don't think as town you doubt the genuineness of that interaction. Like it really gave me a scummy feel about you that I have been unable to shake.

[HK 50]

I hate that porkens claimed VT. I think scum would have claimed a PR here.

Same, I was kinda hoping he claimed a non invest PR role since BM was breadcrumbing cop with emojis harder.

[stungun0404]

VOTE: Geraintm

Absolutely nothing in their ISO thus far points to scumhunting, and I do not like that. Especially paired together with their commitment to stalling that they admitted to in 108 by saying "you all do you, i'm going to wait until things become more clear."

That does not settle right with me at all.

Votato, I am going to sort through your meta to see if I confirm what you said about your activity levels.

In the meantime, would you be willing to vote geriantm?

Geraintm was my first vote in this game. I would think you would remember that if you were town here, given there wasn't a lot of posts between these, and not push this towards a scum angle on me.

[HK 50]

And yet I had voted geraintm at an earlier point and clearly indicated that I was OK with him getting pressure? Did you happen to miss that?

I don't think as town you doubt the genuineness of that interaction. Like it really gave me a scummy feel about you that I have been unable to shake.

No I did not; that's not the issue I had. I never had an issue with you wanting to redirect pressure there because of suspicions.

My issue was with how it came across to votato which felt unnatural. There was several points where you felt you were either trying to force votato to commit (via stating that it was the only wagon other than him you would move to) on top of it feeling purposely leading after votato gave his first read about germ. Finally, I found it off putting that you dropped reading votato and prioritized pushing germ when the thread topic switched to that, leaving votato's 650 for example untouched till later which was the analysis you claimed you wanted to see.

Why do you think town me has to see it as genuine?

[HK 50]

Oh I forgot to inculde the point that you had also reintroduced votato meta discussion there and had doubts about the claim which made the dropping of votato additionally puzzling as well.

[stungun0404]

I just don't see how you doubted it that much as town... It felt forced to me. And when something feels forced, you often equate that to them being scummy in this game we play.

All I did was ask him, would you be willing to vote him? Because I wanted those two wagons to have votes, and that was a way I could potentially get that happen. Like, what is so suspect about that and makes you want to doubt everything about it?

[stungun0404]

And yet I had voted geraintm at an earlier point and clearly indicated that I was OK with him getting pressure? Did you happen to miss that?

I don't think as town you doubt the genuineness of that interaction. Like it really gave me a scummy feel about you that I have been unable to shake.

No I did not; that's not the issue I had. I never had an issue with you wanting to redirect pressure there because of suspicions.

My issue was with how it came across to votato which felt unnatural. There was several points where you felt you were either trying to force votato to commit (via stating that it was the only wagon other than him you would move to) on top of it feeling purposely leading after votato gave his first read about germ.

Finally, I found it off putting that you dropped reading votato and prioritized pushing germ when the thread topic switched to that, leaving votato's 650 for example untouched till later which was the analysis you claimed you wanted to see.

Why do you think town me has to see it as genuine?

As for the bolded, this is easily explainable too. I started getting some bad feelings about my push on Votato, so I moved away from him, and there was (and still honestly is) absolutely no support for a Geri wagon. No one has voted him outside of Bob and I in this game. No one. So I went to other scummy suspects.

[HK 50]

I cant see the case on GC sadly at least according to what farside said.

I saw several other interactions not included in the spoilers I believe between Him and BM which makes sense progression wise and isnt as disingenuous as lead to believed. I also liked several of his points and especially the stance he took throughout page 43.

I will concede I can sorta see the pressing many angles yet not commiting to them points some argue, though I dont think it's done enough to point to only scum!GC

[stungun0404]

yeah but who pushed it initially, and where did it come from?

farside I think was the first to push Dunnstral.

But I think the way she pushed it was towny quite frankly.

It's the ones with less apparent reasoning to follow in HK/maybe someone else that should look scummy simply for providing no other reason to follow than "Dunn looks scummy. I agree with what has been said there."

[HK 50]

I just don't see how you doubted it that much as town... It felt forced to me. And when something feels forced, you often equate that to them being scummy in this game we play.

All I did was ask him, would you be willing to vote him? Because I wanted those two wagons to have votes, and that was a way I could potentially get that happen. Like, what is so suspect about that and makes you want to doubt everything about it?

And yet I had voted geraintm at an earlier point and clearly indicated that I was OK with him getting pressure? Did you happen to miss that?

I don't think as town you doubt the genuineness of that interaction. Like it really gave me a scummy feel about you that I have been unable to shake.

No I did not; that's not the issue I had. I never had an issue with you wanting to redirect pressure there because of suspicions.

My issue was with how it came across to votato which felt unnatural. There was several points where you felt you were either trying to force votato to commit (via stating that it was the only wagon other than him you would move to) on top of it feeling purposely leading after votato gave his first read about germ.

Finally, I found it off putting that you dropped reading votato and prioritized pushing germ when the thread topic switched to that, leaving votato's 650 for example untouched till later which was the analysis you claimed you wanted to see.

Why do you think town me has to see it as genuine?

As for the bolded, this is easily explainable too. I started getting some bad feelings about my push on Votato, so I moved away from him, and there was (and still honestly is) absolutely no support for a Geri wagon. No one has voted him outside of Bob and I in this game. No one. So I went to other scummy suspects.

I just see things different then I guess. Considering my arguement against you was that you were forced, I'm fine with that assessment.

(To be honest this alt was made as an experiment of sorts that failed but w/e, the results is all I needed)

Anyways, to give a better view point, This is how I saw it:
-Votato gives his germ read
-325 comes and gives the first inquiry to look into germ further and consider joining you on the wagon
-several posts are made (which are in 607. I dont remember them by heart post wise to link them) which repeatedly came across as "I'm looking into you votato more, but you could vote germ. I'm voting there. I would like it if you voted there" etc.

The repeatence of it is what bothers me. You made more than just that one quote you linked after 325 actively voicing to votato that it's ok to vote there rather than just have votato come naturely to a more expanded stance on the matter. This is all while actively suspecting votato at the time. In short, it didnt actually look like you seriously suspected Votato at all and merely wanted another person to hop onto your bandwagon which didnt line up to your perspective.

Now if it was someone you had townread and wasnt voting for, and lacked the survialistic notion thrusted upon votato, I would find it to be an alright interaction.

As for re 350: which is a fine explanation, but not one present in the timeframe. There wasnt anything indicating that you had switched your stance on votato till much much later where you told him you reread his meta and he is now town. You still kept that notion he was scum after I posted as well by putting him in assocatied teams.

[Green Crayons]

What did you find so town about it?

Her insistence on focusing entirely on a single player, for a single reason (hypocrisy in early D1 voting), when town can be hypocritical, seemed like pretty suspicious scum play to me.