Newbie 2012 - Game Over

[TheThirteenthJT]

My argument on Unowen stands as my scummiest read.
First I want to point out how hard they looked to be buddying DRPepper to keep justifying their early stance on Italiano. Post 36, 57, and 58. Also 120

Next I got called out on asking for reads of myself as being scummy but also in post 57 he asks 72 for his reads on himself, Ydrasse and me.

Post 121 and 128 are what really strike me here. He groups himself with DrPepper and states I've been avoiding their posts besides my original post. This was posted a time that gave me no time to respond to some of the latest posts so it seemed opportunistic. He also stated that him and DrPepper had contributed more to the thread but his only posts at the time had been about the Italiano situation. I call him out on this and he changes his point.

Post 165 he almost comes off as certain DrPepper is town and the buddying here continues.


297 is an example of him picking and choosing my words to what most benefits him. He had been doing the same to Italiano previously.

Now more recently in 301 he says gut scum partner reading is bad. At the same he never held open suspicion for GuiltyLion but somehow grouped him with Italiano. Would that not also be a gut scum partner read? You also have to take into account how early in the game this was and I was also doing some POE. 312 mentions their previous suspicion of Italiano and guiltylion but all game he has me and Italiano as his scumreads. The only question I saw to guiltylion was his read on Italiano.

Also to respond, do I have a fear a quicklynch? Yes and you can read my last game why. It's not always a scum move and coming out of that game I am a bit wary of it.

313 I don't like at all. First Italiano calls you out on the point of not calling out GuiltyLion and I feel your response is weak to that. If GuiltyLion was a suspect I feel you would have drilled them as much as you have been with Italiano and I. For the most part of the game you've practically distanced yourself front them. As to the second point I am doing my best here with what I see and your are discrediting me by saying that I'm simply guessing. Aren't we all in a way? Scum are the only ones who know for certain who town and mafia are.

As to the experienced player point I do want people to look at them. I want people to be wary of everyone. Last game I went after a player who was townread by most because I don't want to be blindsided. Maybe it's a bad trait and bad play on my end but I don't want people to get tok confident trusting everyone.

Anyways this is my case on Unowen and why my vote remains here. Walter is a comfortable lynch for me as well as the Sera slot if we find ourselves in a pinch.

[GuiltyLion]

I haven't read everything yet and I'm really tired and don't have time to post today, so this is just a prodge :/ I have skimmed along though and I see more scum reads on TTJT, I'll try to revisit that tomorrow. still think the pi slot is scum, less sold on 72

[Micc]

Votecount 1.08

UNOwen (2) -

TheThirteenthJT, ItalianoVD

Sera Masumi (2) -

GuiltyLion, WaltertheDunce10

TheThirteenthJT (2) -

72offsuit, UNOwen

ItalianoVD (1) -

Ydrasse

WaltertheDunce10 (1) -

DoctorPepper

Not Voting (1) -

Sera Masumi

With 9 players alive it takes 5 votes to Eliminate.

The deadline for Day 1 is in (expired on 2020-06-28 20:00:00).

Prodding DoctorPepper.

[ItalianoVD]

You know, I feel like TTJT is probably scum. Post 321 feels incomplete and forced. Nothing new really stands out from what they have already said. Their theory of at least one experienced player being scum was found to have holes in it. Their reads list is kind of mysterious and they seem to be unable or unwilling to pinpoint or solidify any real thoughts on anyone. Not really feeling good vibes from their recent posts.
With that said, I haven’t felt any better about UNOwen either. The biggest thing is them “scumreading” GuiltyLion, which they never actually did, but stated that they were “looking at it”. It’s a pretty big detail to leave out or not put down if that was/is your scumread and reasons why you were scumreading that person.

[72offsuit]

Just spouting random thoughts: I still find it really interesting how vastly different each game is depending on the players. I've had totally different dynamics in most of my games.

[72offsuit]

Who is this DoctorPepper? Sure would be nice to meet them.

[72offsuit]

That opinion is independant from my reads. I just feel there are too many strong players this game based on the little metareads I've done. This makes me believe it will not be an easy game to play. I feel that if any one of our SEs is scum we are going to be blindsided hard. At the same time I'm having a hard time pinpointing scum reads in them which is why I can not say which one if any of them are scum. 72 is the one from the three that has set me off the most however.

The vibes I'm getting is at least one person is playing a strong town game to throw us off. At the same time it could just be my paranoia because I'm getting clear town scumhunting vibes from a few players and that is abnormal for me making me skeptical. I feel like I'm being played.

Here is my readlist

Guilty Lion
Drpepper
Sera

I will call these three the null.

Italiano
Ydrasse
72

I've seen strong town points/reasons but at times felt something off and having a hard time pinpointing.

Walterthedunce
Unowen

My two strongest scumreads after my reread completion. Walter did shoot up my rankings.

I too will begin elaborating on my reads. I also have some interesting pairings if you are all in for a little speculation posting.

This reads list is jus lol..... How can anyone genuinely have pi/Sera in top 3 townies.

[UNOwen]

321 looks like an attempt to keep options open and tread on eggshells. It contains a null list and a list described as "I've seen strong town points/reasons but at times felt something off and having a hard time pinpointing". Since this second group is JT's second tier of suspects I think it's interesting that he chose to describe them in such a neutral way.

Next I got called out on asking for reads of myself as being scummy but also in post 57 he asks 72 for his reads on himself, Ydrasse and me.

It is 100% clear from context why those things are different, and since you were doing a reread and I am your biggest scumread I don't believe you could have missed it.

Leaving that aside: you are accusing me of being scummy for doing something, while saying that the very same thing is not scummy when you do it. Either you think the read asking point is scummy or you don't, you can't only think so when it suits you. There is no way this can be a genuine point.

Post 121 and 128 are what really strike me here. He groups himself with DrPepper and states I've been avoiding their posts besides my original post. This was posted a time that gave me no time to respond to some of the latest posts so it seemed opportunistic. He also stated that him and DrPepper had contributed more to the thread but his only posts at the time had been about the Italiano situation. I call him out on this and he changes his point.

You will have noticed that I said this was a misread. I can only imagine that choosing to persist with it is deliberate.

Re: the early Italiano push. I still think it was correct. The mod-vote was the most suspicious thing in the game at that point and pushing it did get the game going.

[UNOwen]

297 is an example of him picking and choosing my words to what most benefits him. He had been doing the same to Italiano previously.

Excluding the misread that I have already conceded: what words do you think I've unfairly represented?

Now more recently in 301 he says gut scum partner reading is bad. At the same he never held open suspicion for GuiltyLion but somehow grouped him with Italiano. Would that not also be a gut scum partner read? You also have to take into account how early in the game this was and I was also doing some POE. 312 mentions their previous suspicion of Italiano and guiltylion but all game he has me and Italiano as his scumreads. The only question I saw to guiltylion was his read on Italiano.

You say you were doing PoE, I wonder how you managed to PoE pi out of consideration to leave Walter as the only scum partner.
The GuiltyLion stuff was not a gut scum partner read.

Also to respond, do I have a fear a quicklynch? Yes and you can read my last game why. It's not always a scum move and coming out of that game I am a bit wary of it.

Ok, I see why you are saying this. I stand by my earlier point on quicklynching though.

As to the second point I am doing my best here with what I see and your are discrediting me by saying that I'm simply guessing. Aren't we all in a way? Scum are the only ones who know for certain who town and mafia are.

As to the experienced player point I do want people to look at them. I want people to be wary of everyone. Last game I went after a player who was townread by most because I don't want to be blindsided. Maybe it's a bad trait and bad play on my end but I don't want people to get tok confident trusting everyone.

I'm not sure why you separated this, they are the same argument.
It is one thing to say: anyone could be scum, so we should be wary of everyone - including the SE's
And another to say: anyone could be scum, but I guess one of the SE's is scum so be specifically wary of them

[UNOwen]

You know, I feel like TTJT is probably scum. Post 321 feels incomplete and forced. Nothing new really stands out from what they have already said. Their theory of at least one experienced player being scum was found to have holes in it. Their reads list is kind of mysterious and they seem to be unable or unwilling to pinpoint or solidify any real thoughts on anyone. Not really feeling good vibes from their recent posts.
With that said, I haven’t felt any better about UNOwen either. The biggest thing is them “scumreading” GuiltyLion, which they never actually did, but stated that they were “looking at it”. It’s a pretty big detail to leave out or not put down if that was/is your scumread and reasons why you were scumreading that person.

The GuiltyLion suspicion was dependent on you being scum, the primary reasons being his early game defence and then the way he voted against you. Because it was only valid if you were scum, it made sense to me not to immediately draw attention and instead observe both of you to see if there would be more evidence for my theory. I lost confidence in my scum read on you and so with it my main reasons for suspecting GuiltyLion.

[DoctorPepper]

Hi, prod received. I should probably do a better job reading the game

[TheThirteenthJT]

That opinion is independant from my reads. I just feel there are too many strong players this game based on the little metareads I've done. This makes me believe it will not be an easy game to play. I feel that if any one of our SEs is scum we are going to be blindsided hard. At the same time I'm having a hard time pinpointing scum reads in them which is why I can not say which one if any of them are scum. 72 is the one from the three that has set me off the most however.

The vibes I'm getting is at least one person is playing a strong town game to throw us off. At the same time it could just be my paranoia because I'm getting clear town scumhunting vibes from a few players and that is abnormal for me making me skeptical. I feel like I'm being played.

Here is my readlist

Guilty Lion
Drpepper
Sera

I will call these three the null.

Italiano
Ydrasse
72

I've seen strong town points/reasons but at times felt something off and having a hard time pinpointing.

Walterthedunce
Unowen

My two strongest scumreads after my reread completion. Walter did shoot up my rankings.

I too will begin elaborating on my reads. I also have some interesting pairings if you are all in for a little speculation posting.

This reads list is jus lol..... How can anyone genuinely have pi/Sera in top 3 townies.

I'll explain endgame. I'm experimenting a lot and they way this list is set up is directly based with something you've said earlier. Also Pii is not a townread. I don't try to townread day one.


And I want to let you guys know how butchered my posts are and it is due to irl stuff that I won't get into too much. I'm not making excuses for my play but I keep having interruptions in middle of writing posts and have to keep coming back later to finish. I've rushed many.

[TheThirteenthJT]

You know, I feel like TTJT is probably scum. Post 321 feels incomplete and forced. Nothing new really stands out from what they have already said. Their theory of at least one experienced player being scum was found to have holes in it. Their reads list is kind of mysterious and they seem to be unable or unwilling to pinpoint or solidify any real thoughts on anyone. Not really feeling good vibes from their recent posts.
With that said, I haven’t felt any better about UNOwen either. The biggest thing is them “scumreading” GuiltyLion, which they never actually did, but stated that they were “looking at it”. It’s a pretty big detail to leave out or not put down if that was/is your scumread and reasons why you were scumreading that person.

My thoughts are stronger than they may be showing. This had just been a tough few days were I've been doing my best to keep posting/reading. Ive been tired.

[Micc]

Searching for a replacement for Sera Masumi.

[GuiltyLion]

finally tackling this post!

a) The quick change of heart off the TTJT wagon.
In moving off the TTJT wagon, 172 , GL simply says "That said, I appreciate your explanation here and I think the overall post feels genuine"
TTJT,'s response in 123 does not particuarly strike me as being convincingly of a town mindset.
TTJT says of Doctorpepper, that he is "an experienced player pushing a newbie [IVD] who has not been on RVS on this site before".
-- which is untrue as IVD has played a game previously and has been through RVS.

I disagree that a single early-game vote, as DP voted IVD, compares to TTJT being actually lynched for his newbie "no lynch" play.

What I;m trying to say is, I'm not really liking GL's rationale and the shift away here from pressuring TTJT.

When I read this and went back and revisited 123 to try to convince myself it couldn't come from scum, I think you are right here. I feel I may have gotten suckered by the fact that he doubled down on insisting that it was a good reason to push with the last sentence, I thought that was a little headstrong to be scum and showed earnest belief in his posts. But it's not something that scum can't post, so I think you're right to push back on the townread here.

4. Voting a replacing out/AFK player feels like a waste of a vote, and basically suiting scum agenda its not like pi can reply.
Even in getting a reply from the replacement here, its very easy for !scumSera to read the thread and take the path thats best suits scumagenda, as they are not tied to their predecessors "reads"

Voting/FoSing a lurker in !townPi/now-Sera (easy mislynch target), as well as a "competent" player in myself (removal of a potential threat), would certainly suit !scumagenda.
Obviously that depends on pi/Sera's alignment. [not that I;m a particularly good player or anything, but I do ahave a couple of games under my belt]

I get the skepticism here assuming you are town, but the pi slot legitimately is my highest confidence scumread based on the play of most other players here, and I think there's value in pushing there both because it pressures the replacement and because it pressures other slots to engage with my push there. Just because the slot isn't posting doesn't mean I'm going to leave it alone.

b) I'm OK to explain this now. My singling out of a single player despite several players greeting the whole thread, was intentional.
I've tried out the newbie greeting = scum theory and it was a crock of crap, where we vote for our tracker, lol.
See: Newbie 1994
https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=50&t=82538
I picked walter as my RVS, as it was his first game, and thought I'd be more likely to get an alignment-indicative reaction
from him than a more expreienced player.
I also chose to push him on the "greeting-scum-tell" because it was his first game, whereas Ydrasse already had played a game.
I wanted to see others reactions to my overzealous and lame push on walter. No bites on the fishing rod.

This explanation made a lot of sense and makes me feel significantly better about your slot.

In 175 , GL states: "Townies should be concerned with how people view them too, I don't think being worried about why you are being scumread is scum-indicative.

Well, TTJT in 82 , does NOT ask for an EXPLANATION WHY for a SCUMREAD, as GL stated, but simply asks "Where do I fall in your reads?"

So my point still stands, TTJT's 82 IS scummy. Saying my implication that TTJT is scummy, does not feel like a genuine point here from GL.

I also agree with you here. I didn't pay enough attention to the fact that TTJT wasn't asking about being scumread specifically, this is absolutely a fair distinction to make and I see what you're saying now. I think somehow in my head I conflated Italiano's scumreading slots pushing him with the discussion around TTJT, and missed the point of what was being discussed here, but honestly I can't really explain it - either I was too rushed or distracted when I was reading and posting earlier.

[GuiltyLion]

I do agree that 321 and 325 are pretty scummy posts and a lot that I would have said about them has been said already

VOTE: TheThirteenthJT

the biggest problem I have with 325 is that it reads more like a soft defense of his own slot than it does a case on Owen. Lots of "why me if you also did this" type reasoning, UNOwen pointed out the best example of it with the 'asking for reads' point but the whole discussion of 'gut scum partner' reading has the same issue with it.

I also find the "suspicion of SEs" take feels a little fake or performative, I briefly skimmed TTJT's ISO in the completed game he has as town and while he does express a similar mentality of not wanting to townread people too easily, he's also much more focused in who he goes after and he does seem to understand that a lot of the slots he's working with are town. Here it feels like he's trying to vaguely shade all of us so that he can pretend to be uninformed and adapt to pushing/discrediting who he might need to at a future moment, and I don't think it's genuine.

[TheThirteenthJT]

I want to reply to you guys but I am running on very little energy right now. If I get put on L-1 please dont hammer without me being here. I would like to go over all my thoughts, reads etc. I dont want to be lynched Day 1 when I know I have so much i can offer. I never agree with town players being ok with getitng lynch because it reveals information. For me all town mislynches are bad because the only factor a town player can control is knowing they are town. I just dont want to be hammered without being able to really justify myself at full energy.

I know some of you dont like self metaing but I do want to state these points as to why Im not scum. I said earlier I love playing scum over town and it is due to feeling less pressure. As town I want to seem towny becaus eid ont want to be mislynched and It feels unatural for me while as scum I just dont carry that same pressure. This entire game compared to last Ive had constant pressure from multiple players and Ive prioritized defensing myself with my limited time instead of active scumhunting. The points ive stated throughout are what I can see and during my reread I noticed I had missed a lot. I havent had the chance to be as storng of a scumhunter as I felt myself last game. I have also been down on myself because i truly feel ive had lack of conviction this game. Second I want to state that I made the point earlier why I ddint like 72's third question and how I could have used it as scum to benefit myself. Im been as open as I can this game posting as much as I can regardless of my time limitations. Even when Im unable to post Ive been using my time to read and meta eveyrone I can. Instead if I were scum, I could have kept that to myself and no one may have called that out, I could have chosen to lurk and not engage with anyone and easily survived Day 1. Third I dont want to go too much into my scum game for future purposes, but if anything I have a general sense of fun that comes with playing scum. I dont ever feel so backed into a corner as it all feels more like a game instead of a job like it is with town.

Anyways htis is my first PC post all game as Ive been on mobile throughout. Its so much easier and Like I said there is a huge irl work related thing which isnt not allowing me to be as focused as my last game and for that I apologize. While I am making excuses to my play in this post I can only know for sure one thing this game, it is that I am town.

Anways, I do need to go

V/LA for 2 days

until Friday after work. Im not doing myself justice and my team right now and I need to regroup and rest for the remaining of the weekday. I may pop by when I can here but I think its best for my sanity that I avoid this thread alltogether until my weekend starts lol.

[WaltertheDunce10]

I do agree that 321 and 325 are pretty scummy posts and a lot that I would have said about them has been said already

VOTE: TheThirteenthJT

the biggest problem I have with 325 is that it reads more like a soft defense of his own slot than it does a case on Owen. Lots of "why me if you also did this" type reasoning, UNOwen pointed out the best example of it with the 'asking for reads' point but the whole discussion of 'gut scum partner' reading has the same issue with it.

I also find the "suspicion of SEs" take feels a little fake or performative, I briefly skimmed TTJT's ISO in the completed game he has as town and while he does express a similar mentality of not wanting to townread people too easily, he's also much more focused in who he goes after and he does seem to understand that a lot of the slots he's working with are town. Here it feels like he's trying to vaguely shade all of us so that he can pretend to be uninformed and adapt to pushing/discrediting who he might need to at a future moment, and I don't think it's genuine.

aye.
I also find his 321,324,325 to be discordant in nature to the pii vote.
One has piis as a town read and I ask why that is.
He now claims it is a null, yet has it as a town read?
If null then 4 nulls and 2 towns, that number seems off no matter which way.
Then at the end of 325 claims that sera/piis is a nice lynch in a pinch.

[72offsuit]

5 days since a post from the pii/sera slot. Why do people bother joining?

[Micc]

MiniMegabyte replaces Sera Masumi.

[MiniMegabyte]

Hello all

[MiniMegabyte]

VOTE: UNOwen

I don't like 24, the whole thing feels awkward and he conveniently doesn't put his actual reason for voting Italiano into words - sneaky, sneaky

Does anyone really have a reason for who they are voting though?

[MiniMegabyte]

I find the whole modvote situation to have been artificially blown up. This sets my eyes early on Doctorpepper.

VOTE: Doctorpepper

I also don't like this vote

Why do you choose to describe it as "artificial"? What is the scum motive to play the way Doctorpepper is playing, and why is that more likely than town!Doctorpepper trying to find scum?

VOTE: TheThirteenthJT

I mean to me it seems a bit off that anyone would push someone up so early so quickly but that could just be me as ive never played on a forum before

I called it artificial because that what it looks like. Basically I need a reason to start a push on someone to make myself useful to the town on page one, get early scumhunting credit and zoom out. I've seen this done before and always pings me early in games. Both Doctorpepper and Uno have done this with what I found to be a lol vote by Italiano.

Now don't get me wrong. Early game voting is always a crapshoot. So since Italiano was receiving early game pressure, I want to pressure the counterside and see reactions as well. Thus my vote.

1) Random guess or analysis of what we have so far, take a crack at the scumteam. Who is the mafia team in this game?
2) If you were mafia in this game, who would you like to be your partner, or who would most likely be your partner.

on the other hand, I don't really like these questions, they don't seem very likely to actually lead to useful content. We should always be talking about 1) in the general sense constantly anyways, and 2) is just a WIFOM fest

I really feel that town has nothing to lose by answering those questions. It can alert us of anyone potentially buddying us early in the game and gives us something to look back at later as the game progresses.

I do agree we should be sharing our reads constantly throughout the game. This is just a fun little encouragement to do so this early in.

Now as to the second point, I don't think WiFOM is all bad. I rather not answer why until more people answer the question. Then I will feel free explaining what I like about this question. This is also a trial run question for me.

I agree on your points, so far I would say my scum team would be 72 and Doctorpepper
2. Probably Guiltylion,
I am not sure why 72 would push for my lynch so quickly, it seems off to me.

[MiniMegabyte]

Hey everyone. I'm coming in witH the two following questions that I would like all to answer please. Mostly for fun since it's so early in the game.

1) Random guess or analysis of what we have so far, take a crack at the scumteam. Who is the mafia team in this game?
2) If you were mafia in this game, who would you like to be your partner, or who would most likely be your partner.

I mean this could just be me but i see this as a way for you to find out where you are in people's reads

[72offsuit]

Hello all

Hi Mini, thanks for replacing in.

When you get a chance please upload an avatar for yourself to make your poats easier to identify.