Newbie 2012 - Game Over

[DoctorPepper]

VOTE: 72

You're the best

[DoctorPepper]

521 is a bad push for "me contradicting myself"

Yes, you started my wagon. But hey, it's much easier to push for the guy who wouldn't fight back than the guy actually playing

See the thing is, had you actually had a decent case, I wouldn't have batted an eye. But your case was literally "hurr durr meta" and "hurr durr inactive after V/LA" that I just

HAD

to see that as having incredibly scummy motivations

[TheThirteenthJT]

I really feel like lynching either DrPepper or 72 is high risk high reward. Are we sure we want to be on this Day 1. Shouldn't we let them continue until Day 2.

I feel in general consensus Mini would be our floor lynch today.

I'd prefer Walter or Uno but mini is my third option at this point solely based on contributions. At this point I'm willing to settle here. I don't feel like gambling day 1.

As for where my opinions lie I feel like 72 pressured me in a similar way and I've been disappointed in then avoiding some of my questions. I feel invisible at times. At the same time I see him as very tunnelly in his approaches.

Dr pepper has been a lot stronger in his case of 72. And I'm tending to lean towards agreeing with him here, but I really don't want to chance it. Drpepper, as a fellow scum preferance player, do you ever as town employ scum tactics to save yourself? Is this sudden burst of energy because you are against the wall or because you just have more time right now?

Finally I say we don't forget about Guiltylion here who I am curious to see what their opinions on what went on are.

Looking forward to your explanation of readlist Walter.

[UNOwen]

Which leaves TTJT/DoctorPepper which I think is the team. We have TTJT at 3 votes and DocPepper at 2, I don't see a point of switching right at this moment, but happy to go with DocPep if UNOWen/Walter prefer to go there.

Why are you deferring your vote choice to me/Walter?

[UNOwen]

What I was stating with that point was simply, if thats a scum point for other players, I have not been the only one to do it. Do I presonally find it scummy? 50/50 The context is important. The same point may or may not apply to separate situations. Nothing is in a vacuum in this game. Did you ever explain why you asked?

The reason I asked is in the question. We had all committed the "greeting-the-entire-thread" scum tell but 72 was only pushing Walter on it.

And me calling out Italiano to give me his read on me was also explained previously. I felt it was an inderect buddy attempt that would be called out by someone else had I not done because of my defence for him. I also asked for walter because he was the only other player left out of his reads besides me.

You stated you misread my point on Italianos bold play. 121 and 128 were not related to that.

That's not the misread I was talking about. My original point was that you entered the thread decided myself/DrP had 50/50 chances of being scum and then did not attempt to make any determination which of us it was before voting. I know that there were only a few posts at that point but I would have thought you'd use them as a starting point. As it was you voted purely on the 50/50 which by your own logic gave equal chance of being town: therefore not a genuine suspicion. Later you gave further reasoning for the vote but that did not appear when you were first challenged in 68.

[UNOwen]

I'm wondering why !scum TTJT wouldnt vote for mini

He might feel that a Mini vote would look overly opportunistic.
Does town JT demote me (the scum read he has held all game) to secondary tier of lynches at that point?

[DoctorPepper]

Re: 527

Not a fan of this as you're kind of sitting on the fence here. At best, 72 and I will be distractions to town and honestly I

do not trust him

and want his scum self lynched. Lynching a no content slot is a last resort move that we only do because of the deadline but we learn nothing from those lynches. Theyre an easy way for scum to hide behind and we get nothing for Day 2

Lynching between me or 72 at least gives us more discussion for tomorrow. So I suggest you go ahead and vote him.

As for your questions. I try to play regardless of alignment so I wouldn't know what using "scum tactics" as town is. In fact, I'll counter that I'm more aggressive as town because I have a lot less to lose.

As for that, I'm willing to admit that while I had more time now (it was Saturday morning after all when it started), this dumb push on me made me take the game seriously

[UNOwen]

I think DoctorPepper makes a fair point that it's not useful to use meta against him from games where he was active. Having said that I don't understand the argument against 72. He was the one to stalled the JT wagon by pushing against DrP. Why bother doing that if he is scum and they are both town?

In contrast GuiltyLion's vote struck me as off: in 424 he calls the team as JT/DrP, then decides it's unlikely based on their previous posts and switches wagons. This is
something I would have expected him to have already thought about before post 424.

[UNOwen]

I've read the past few pages and my key stand out is that JT's equivocating. DoctorPepper goes from null read to lynch list to willing-to-hammer without JT ever suggesting he finds DrP's recent postings suspicious.

GL 72 Ydrasse and aaltee. How much are you willing to bet DP is scum? Like how sure are you from a 1-10. I won't be intenting to hammer until DP makes it clear he has caught up. Or we are under 24 hours.

Why ask the people voting DrP how sure they are? Looks to me like JT is saying he'd be willing to hammer but wants to dodge responsibility.

[UNOwen]

What I was stating with that point was simply, if thats a scum point for other players, I have not been the only one to do it. Do I presonally find it scummy? 50/50 The context is important. The same point may or may not apply to separate situations. Nothing is in a vacuum in this game.

Did you ever explain why you asked?

By the way, need more votes on Dunce.

Classic greeting-the-entire-thread scum tell:
https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=79490

What do you make of Ydrasse, myself and now JT who also did this?

The reason is literally in the question. I can see scum JT noticing what they think is an easy point and not looking at the context, because his suspicion wouldn't be genuine anyway. I don't know how town JT misses this.

[DoctorPepper]

UNOwen you are making a very good point but I simply cannot trust 72 anymore.

I'm willing to look at JT tomorrow

[Micc]

Votecount 1.11

DoctorPepper (3) -

72offsuit, Ydrasse, GuiltyLion,

TheThirteenthJT (2) -

UNOwen, MiniMegabyte

72offsuit (2) -

DoctorPepper, ItalianoVD

WaltertheDunce10 (1) -

TheThirteenthJT

Not Voting (1) -

WaltertheDunce10

With 9 players alive it takes 5 votes to Eliminate.

The deadline for Day 1 is in (expired on 2020-06-28 20:00:00).

Prodding MiniMegabyte.

[72offsuit]

I really feel like lynching either DrPepper or 72 is high risk high reward. Are we sure we want to be on this Day 1. Shouldn't we let them continue until Day 2.

I feel in general consensus Mini would be our floor lynch today.

I'd prefer Walter or Uno but mini is my third option at this point solely based on contributions. At this point I'm willing to settle here. I don't feel like gambling day 1.

As for where my opinions lie I feel like 72 pressured me in a similar way and I've been disappointed in then avoiding some of my questions. I feel invisible at times. At the same time I see him as very tunnelly in his approaches.

Dr pepper has been a lot stronger in his case of 72. And I'm tending to lean towards agreeing with him here, but I really don't want to chance it. Drpepper, as a fellow scum preferance player, do you ever as town employ scum tactics to save yourself? Is this sudden burst of energy because you are against the wall or because you just have more time right now?

Finally I say we don't forget about Guiltylion here who I am curious to see what their opinions on what went on are.

Looking forward to your explanation of readlist Walter.

What questions have been avoided? Post specific posts here please.

[WaltertheDunce10]

I really feel like lynching either DrPepper or 72 is high risk high reward. Are we sure we want to be on this Day 1. Shouldn't we let them continue until Day 2.

I feel in general consensus Mini would be our floor lynch today.

I'd prefer Walter or Uno but mini is my third option at this point solely based on contributions. At this point I'm willing to settle here. I don't feel like gambling day 1.

As for where my opinions lie I feel like 72 pressured me in a similar way and I've been disappointed in then avoiding some of my questions. I feel invisible at times. At the same time I see him as very tunnelly in his approaches.

Dr pepper has been a lot stronger in his case of 72. And I'm tending to lean towards agreeing with him here, but I really don't want to chance it. Drpepper, as a fellow scum preferance player, do you ever as town employ scum tactics to save yourself? Is this sudden burst of energy because you are against the wall or because you just have more time right now?

Finally I say we don't forget about Guiltylion here who I am curious to see what their opinions on what went on are.

Looking forward to your explanation of readlist Walter.

High risk/high reward can be a good thing for information.
I see you want to lynch mini considering no one is voting for her.
I agree with you on lion and on 72's tunnel approach.
Why do you not want to gamble d1?
What part of the readlist Jt would you like more fleshed out?

[TheThirteenthJT]

GL 72 Ydrasse and aaltee. How much are you willing to bet DP is scum? Like how sure are you from a 1-10. I won't be intenting to hammer until DP makes it clear he has caught up. Or we are under 24 hours.

Basically asking what DrPepper asked later. If you are a 10 here you are oke being policy lynched at this point.

Why would I do mini over Walter? I don't see a convincing enough case there and don't see a justifiable one on Walter being town. Like I said I would only do mini as a last second if we have to Lynch someone. We are close but there's enough time for them to maybe post content? While with Walter they've had all Day 1 to do the same.

And do you guys think DP would have been so open about his meta. Cause that's clearly what he stated he did is scum. Lie low and oppose the biggest townplayer wagon.

He came back into the game with very weak posts, that is undeniable, but I dont necessary see it as scummy. I see it almost as a bit of disinterest.

why do you assume the disinterest isn't indicative? I think most players, as town, have interest in lynching correctly and influencing the thread in the direction they want. I think scum are more likely not to want to rock the boat or do too much, and make safe/bland posts on entry. 72offsuit also made a meta argument that DoctorPepper is makes weaker posts as scum.

Maybe because I foundd myself in a similar boat a few days ago. I was tired irl which was translating to my game. DRpepper has stated that he has had a rough week. I see him currently as a tired person who needs a few days of rest to be able to get back into the game. Also in regards to meta.

This is a newbie, and with newbie games come the misconception of "scum want to push easy mislynches". The last newbie game I played, I won as scum not by pushing for mislynches but because I intentionally stayed under the radar. I hard defended the day 1 mislynch, knowing full well that it will flip town. The rest of the mislynches I joined but I never drove the wagon, I found flimsy reasons to do it. So Italiano, while I don't think it automatically means you're scummy, it's odd that you're painting it as such because I am pushing for your mislynch

I mean I agree, being reactionary and painting a target on your back isn't a good way to play scum. That doesn't necessarily mean that you won't do it.
In fact that's weird that you're scum reading people just because they're voting you. If either of us were scum, why did we single you out as the mislynch of the day?

I just find it hard to buy he would flat out tells how he played as scum and then just do it. Maybe so but if thats the case props to him for fooling me.

Whether or not DrPepper would have flat out told us what he would do as scum.

[TheThirteenthJT]

What I was stating with that point was simply, if thats a scum point for other players, I have not been the only one to do it. Do I presonally find it scummy? 50/50 The context is important. The same point may or may not apply to separate situations. Nothing is in a vacuum in this game. Did you ever explain why you asked?

The reason I asked is in the question. We had all committed the "greeting-the-entire-thread" scum tell but 72 was only pushing Walter on it.

And me calling out Italiano to give me his read on me was also explained previously. I felt it was an inderect buddy attempt that would be called out by someone else had I not done because of my defence for him. I also asked for walter because he was the only other player left out of his reads besides me.

You stated you misread my point on Italianos bold play. 121 and 128 were not related to that.

That's not the misread I was talking about. My original point was that you entered the thread decided myself/DrP had 50/50 chances of being scum and then did not attempt to make any determination which of us it was before voting. I know that there were only a few posts at that point but I would have thought you'd use them as a starting point. As it was you voted purely on the 50/50 which by your own logic gave equal chance of being town: therefore not a genuine suspicion. Later you gave further reasoning for the vote but that did not appear when you were first challenged in 68.

On the first point that's exactly what I'm getting at. Why would you be worried about how 72 read you in context. I know you Ydrasse and I all did newbie greeting the thread. I want you to explain why you would ask. For me I took as sometimes you need an rvs reason to vote someone and that's what 72 did here. He chose to push Walter and that was his choice. Similar at the end of the day I chose to vote DrPepper over you despite both of you doing the same reason. Internally I had more reasons to pressure him first over you. I really feel you and I are having a hard time seeing this point eye to eye.

[ItalianoVD]

So this is my updated reads list and my thoughts up to this point.

TOWN
DoctorPepper - moved up from semi town because of his recent posting, especially 515. Town play looser because they have nothing to hide.
GuiltyLion - hasn’t really changed since the beginning. Has felt as much town as he did earlier.
Walter - moves up from semi town because of his overall posting and overall feel. I’ve liked his interactions with Owen, 72, and especially TTJT and his wagon hopping has me thinking town.

NULL
Ydrasse - Has fallen down a couple of notches for me. It’s not necessarily a bad thing, however, as she is leaning more towards town null than scum null. Don’t know what it is, but I’m just not as sure as I was earlier.
Mini - Hasn’t posted much and don’t really have a read. A couple of others have townread her. I don’t know, maybe.

SCUM
72 - Dropped several spots. Because of the recent posting towards the town and towards DoctorPepper. Voted for DoctorPepper and then went on to convince the town to vote for him instead of letting it build organically. Seemed to be trying too hard to make it happen. Also all of his recent posting has a lot of frustration and annoyance that they didn’t previously have. Yes I know it’s a 180. One thing I will say is that just because you read someone a certain way doesn’t mean that read cannot change and that you shouldn’t be willing to pull the trigger, which brings me to my next read.
TTJT - Dropped a spot or two. Very, very unsure of himself and unwilling to pull the trigger or read anyone else except for the same reads he had at the beginning of the day. Well a lot has happened and changed since that time. I think the wagon hopping reasoning for Walter is weak because I see town doing that a lot, not here, but on my forum (sorry to keep referring back to it), but wagon hoppers were more often than not villagers. Scum or wolves don’t want that attention. I know you can’t rule it out, but in this case I’m going to. Also haven’t seen him change or reframe his theory of there being at least one SE on the scum team and yet two of them are on wagons and he’s not willing to vote for either of them.

SEMI SCUM
UNOwen - moves up a little actually. As the least scummy of the three is still here because I can’t shake his early supposed scumread of GuiltyLion without actually scumreading him and it continues to stand out for me. Even though he’s moved away from me I still think it’s possible he could be scum.

POSSIBLE PARTNER COMBINATIONS
TTJT/72
TTJT/Owen
72/Owen
72/Mini

Any questions feel free to ask and Ill clear it up best I can.

[TheThirteenthJT]

I'm wondering why !scum TTJT wouldnt vote for mini

He might feel that a Mini vote would look overly opportunistic.
Does town JT demote me (the scum read he has held all game) to secondary tier of lynches at that point?

Tell me something Uno. Regardless of alignment what would have been the easy way for me to save myself day 1. Not sticking to my guns. I've had my people laid out on who I'm ok voting. I could have joined any other wagon and even hammered DrPepper if I wanted to. I want to take advantage of every last hour we have here day one when people seem to be all over the place.

The only reason I was ok intending to hammer was due to time. Would you prefer a no lunch. Obviously I wanted to state where I was at on that wagon while I was still on. One I'm not particularly fond off but will vote if it comes down to it.

[TheThirteenthJT]

Look guys I've finally had my chance to lie low and let you guys duke it out here in the end and I came back and gave my opinions on things going on. I defended the DrPepper even when it was convineitn for me to join it and bs a reason. Or just remain silent and let you guys got it while I was no longer the certain of attention. Boy does this backfire. I'm doing my best here.

[TheThirteenthJT]

I've read the past few pages and my key stand out is that JT's equivocating. DoctorPepper goes from null read to lynch list to willing-to-hammer without JT ever suggesting he finds DrP's recent postings suspicious.

GL 72 Ydrasse and aaltee. How much are you willing to bet DP is scum? Like how sure are you from a 1-10. I won't be intenting to hammer until DP makes it clear he has caught up. Or we are under 24 hours.

Why ask the people voting DrP how sure they are? Looks to me like JT is saying he'd be willing to hammer but wants to dodge responsibility.

I said I was willing to hammer. I said I was to Lynch DrPepper when I first return but he was now my third option. I'm not hiding that. Why do I want to know how sure they are? Because I wanted to see their responses to give us info for day 2 based on how the lynch would flip. I got no answers back so in the end it was useless.

[72offsuit]

So this is my updated reads list and my thoughts up to this point.

TOWN
DoctorPepper - moved up from semi town because of his recent posting, especially 515. Town play looser because they have nothing to hide.
GuiltyLion - hasn’t really changed since the beginning. Has felt as much town as he did earlier.
Walter - moves up from semi town because of his overall posting and overall feel. I’ve liked his interactions with Owen, 72, and especially TTJT and his wagon hopping has me thinking town.

NULL
Ydrasse - Has fallen down a couple of notches for me. It’s not necessarily a bad thing, however, as she is leaning more towards town null than scum null. Don’t know what it is, but I’m just not as sure as I was earlier.
Mini - Hasn’t posted much and don’t really have a read. A couple of others have townread her. I don’t know, maybe.

SCUM
72 - Dropped several spots. Because of the recent posting towards the town and towards DoctorPepper. Voted for DoctorPepper and then went on to convince the town to vote for him instead of letting it build organically. Seemed to be trying too hard to make it happen. Also all of his recent posting has a lot of frustration and annoyance that they didn’t previously have. Yes I know it’s a 180. One thing I will say is that just because you read someone a certain way doesn’t mean that read cannot change and that you shouldn’t be willing to pull the trigger, which brings me to my next read.
TTJT - Dropped a spot or two. Very, very unsure of himself and unwilling to pull the trigger or read anyone else except for the same reads he had at the beginning of the day. Well a lot has happened and changed since that time. I think the wagon hopping reasoning for Walter is weak because I see town doing that a lot, not here, but on my forum (sorry to keep referring back to it), but wagon hoppers were more often than not villagers. Scum or wolves don’t want that attention. I know you can’t rule it out, but in this case I’m going to. Also haven’t seen him change or reframe his theory of there being at least one SE on the scum team and yet two of them are on wagons and he’s not willing to vote for either of them.

SEMI SCUM
UNOwen - moves up a little actually. As the least scummy of the three is still here because I can’t shake his early supposed scumread of GuiltyLion without actually scumreading him and it continues to stand out for me. Even though he’s moved away from me I still think it’s possible he could be scum.

POSSIBLE PARTNER COMBINATIONS
TTJT/72
TTJT/Owen
72/Owen
72/Mini

Any questions feel free to ask and Ill clear it up best I can.

You scumread of me makes zero sense.

DP self admitted he hasnt been interested in this game.

What incentive do I have as scum to remove DP from the game. From !ScumMe PoV he is literally zero threat given his lack of contribution to scumhunting and barely been townread by anyone.

How did my scumread of him not devlop organically. The gamestate with DP being totally zero activity gave me the impression of scum just happy for the trajectory of the game to continue as is, which felt like !scumDP sitting back watching !townTTJT get lynched with zero implication.
I was deciding between switching between Mini and DP, read DP's previous games and settled on pushing DP.
His return from VLA was a joke, and his reponses to me are simiarly scummy and contradictory.

[Ydrasse]

my god you guys got busy.

[GuiltyLion]

He came back into the game with very weak posts, that is undeniable, but I dont necessary see it as scummy. I see it almost as a bit of disinterest.

why do you assume the disinterest isn't indicative? I think most players, as town, have interest in lynching correctly and influencing the thread in the direction they want. I think scum are more likely not to want to rock the boat or do too much, and make safe/bland posts on entry. 72offsuit also made a meta argument that DoctorPepper is makes weaker posts as scum.

I feel like this is a huge misrep because I actually care more about my scum games than town games.

I don't really know you well enough to know which games you care more about, it'd be a misrep if I

knew

you care more about scum games.

Here's my question back at you: Why do you expect townies to not want to lynch you when it's evident you haven't cared about the game up to this point? You wait until you're L-1 and close to lynch to start playing, surely you can see how that's suspicious?

[GuiltyLion]

I think they haven't been given a lot of suspicion because they seem to give that aura of leading town but the intentions are honestly in bad faith. So far those are the only comfortable lynches for me

In my absolutely do not lynch pile, I'll have Ydrasse and IVD.

I find it hard to believe that you genuinely don't understand why a townie might be suspicious of your lack of involvement in the game today. In the same spirit of my last post, put yourself in my shoes - I completely agree with you on Ydrasse and IVD, and I also townread UNOwen, Walter, and 72, given their various demonstrations of attempting to generate info and help solve. 72 makes a case on you and pushes there. Why should I

not

hop on your wagon? What should I be seeing in 72's case that makes me realize he is scum pushing you and not town (correctly) identifying you as scum?

[GuiltyLion]

Scum you agenda is that the TTJT lynch was losing steam and you went for me

The reason TTJT wagon lost steam was largely

because

of 72. I think if 72 stayed the course on pushing TTJT that lynch easily would have happened, even if you hadn't posted at all for the rest of the day.