Newbie 2012 - Game Over


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Post Post #550 (ISO) » Sat Jun 27, 2020 9:26 am

Post by GuiltyLion »

In post 528, UNOwen wrote:
In post 424, GuiltyLion wrote: Which leaves TTJT/DoctorPepper which I think is the team. We have TTJT at 3 votes and DocPepper at 2, I don't see a point of switching right at this moment, but happy to go with DocPep if UNOWen/Walter prefer to go there.
Why are you deferring your vote choice to me/Walter?
This was the VC at the time that I said that - modified to include Ydrasse's vote in :
In post 412, Micc wrote:
Votecount 1.09
TheThirteenthJT (3) -
UNOwen, GuiltyLion, MiniMegabyte
UNOwen (2) -
TheThirteenthJT, ItalianoVD
MiniMegabyte (1) -
WaltertheDunce10
WaltertheDunce10 (1) -
DoctorPepper
DoctorPepper (2) -
72offsuit, Ydrasse

Not Voting (0) -
I don't believe in UNOwen or Walter lynches. You and Walter were the main active townreads who may have switched to DoctorPepper instead of Thirteenth. I'm still fine with Mini too but that wagon didn't have any momentum behind it. I guess I could have mentioned Italiano too, but IIRC he indicated at some point he preferred the TTJT lynch.
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Post Post #551 (ISO) » Sat Jun 27, 2020 9:29 am

Post by GuiltyLion »

In post 532, UNOwen wrote:In contrast GuiltyLion's vote struck me as off: in 424 he calls the team as JT/DrP, then decides it's unlikely based on their previous posts and switches wagons. This is
something I would have expected him to have already thought about before post 424.
meh, I honestly hadn't thought about it. My reads really have not changed at all as of this point:
In post 370, GuiltyLion wrote:I'm similarly no longer townreading DoctorPepper

I'll vote for any of {TTJT, MiniMegabyte, DoctorPepper} today, and the way the latter two are dancing around suspicion/voting for TTJT makes me wonder if he's a mislynch that scum missed the boat on and are now trying to avoid an overly scummy hop on. TTJT - what are your thoughts on this?
at this point we're close to deadline and need to consolidate on a lynch, I frankly do not care which of those three it is.
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Post Post #552 (ISO) » Sat Jun 27, 2020 9:30 am

Post by Ydrasse »

1) I don't understand the idea that TTJT and DP cannot be a team together based off of one post. I think that is wrong because... yeah, scum would if they were bussing, lmao? If it was DP and TTJT scum it's totally possible that DP was trying to create space for him to be eased into a TTJT scumread if need be down the line and I don't get that sort of absolute this or that logic.

2) I don't agree inherently with the entirety of the case that 72 has presented on DP. I think in part that is because meta is not something I often engage in, but basing someone's alignment on level of activity compared to other games does feels like a discredit? Yeah, you can be active based on different parts of the game if it's beneficial, but I don't think that DP's activity level should be the main meat of the case against him — it should be the contents of this game and his posts.

3) That being said, I do agree still that for a good part of this game (as said in ), DP wasn't engaging in scumhunting save for pointing out something strange and then going on his way when he was here. It has only been in these most recent of posts that I think that DP has stepped up to the plate under pressure even if some of it has given me pause, because a lot of it is motivated more so by defending himself FMPOV than anything else.

4) 72's push in this past page or two isn't great. I can understand the meat of his case from the beginning save for the meta (and even then, I can plausibly believe that town!72 is using this meta with good intentions to gamesolve) but I don't understand concepts like lynching active SE's as scummy () — if a SE is scummy, they're scummy. I think that is somewhat discrediting too, because DP didn't immediately crucify GL and 72; in , he is willing to give credit to 72 as a potential town player for the meta argument, and GL as potentially overreacting.

-

@DP: You're locked in on 72 right now but can you tell me who any of your other scumreads are? I assume GL is one as well, and I don't think that you're reading 72/GL as a team right now, but I could be mistaken. In truth, I think that the fact you locked into the people voting you as your scumreads doesn't give me too much confidence? It's like there's a jump from the low-effort attempts to find scum but only in the people who suspected you. That and I think your explanations in as to why you're going after who you are could be justifications as to what your usual method of play are to support your case in this game versus what they genuinely are? If that makes sense.

Also I don't like in truth because it feels like it's ignoring something scummy (because I think that JT has been scummy throughout this push. I do think that gauging the reactions of confidence in everyone else isn't great, and that is an effort to go for a 'safer' option despite the likelihood of those options. I don't understand the conflation of it being a high risk/high reward situation at all. That and is, fmpov, an effort from JT to give himself credit for his actions despite them being something scum could do, too.).
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Post Post #553 (ISO) » Sat Jun 27, 2020 9:33 am

Post by GuiltyLion »

In post 541, ItalianoVD wrote:Voted for DoctorPepper and then went on to convince the town to vote for him instead of letting it build organically. Seemed to be trying too hard to make it happen.
I can see where you're coming from, but remember that we have fewer than 2 days until deadline. There's not enough time for us to sit back and build wagons "organically", I completely understand why a townie who thinks he's caught scum would want to push it pretty hard.
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Post Post #554 (ISO) » Sat Jun 27, 2020 10:24 am

Post by UNOwen »

In post 540, TheThirteenthJT wrote: On the first point that's exactly what I'm getting at. Why would you be worried about how 72 read you in context. I know you Ydrasse and I all did newbie greeting the thread. I want you to explain why you would ask. For me I took as sometimes you need an rvs reason to vote someone and that's what 72 did here. He chose to push Walter and that was his choice. Similar at the end of the day I chose to vote DrPepper over you despite both of you doing the same reason. Internally I had more reasons to pressure him first over you. I really feel you and I are having a hard time seeing this point eye to eye.
I asked because 72 wasn't random voting Walter, his previous post gave Walter scum points and I was calling out 72 for using a scumtell selectively.

Re: the last sentence - yeah, I agree with you there.
In post 542, TheThirteenthJT wrote: Tell me something Uno. Regardless of alignment what would have been the easy way for me to save myself day 1. Not sticking to my guns. I've had my people laid out on who I'm ok voting. I could have joined any other wagon and even hammered DrPepper if I wanted to. I want to take advantage of every last hour we have here day one when people seem to be all over the place.

The only reason I was ok intending to hammer was due to time. Would you prefer a no lunch. Obviously I wanted to state where I was at on that wagon while I was still on. One I'm not particularly fond off but will vote if it comes down to it.
There was still time left, as you yourself acknowledged. And you didn't state where you were on the wagon (in terms of whether you agreed with it or not), only that you were willing to hammer it.
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Post Post #555 (ISO) » Sat Jun 27, 2020 10:27 am

Post by UNOwen »

In post 550, GuiltyLion wrote: This was the VC at the time that I said that - modified to include Ydrasse's vote in :
In post 412, Micc wrote:
Votecount 1.09
TheThirteenthJT (3) -
UNOwen, GuiltyLion, MiniMegabyte
UNOwen (2) -
TheThirteenthJT, ItalianoVD
MiniMegabyte (1) -
WaltertheDunce10
WaltertheDunce10 (1) -
DoctorPepper
DoctorPepper (2) -
72offsuit, Ydrasse

Not Voting (0) -
I don't believe in UNOwen or Walter lynches. You and Walter were the main active townreads who may have switched to DoctorPepper instead of Thirteenth. I'm still fine with Mini too but that wagon didn't have any momentum behind it. I guess I could have mentioned Italiano too, but IIRC he indicated at some point he preferred the TTJT lynch.
Ok, that's fair enough.

Regarding your reads list, for me it is the other way around and it is the way JT has been dancing around DoctorPepper that makes me wonder.
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Post Post #556 (ISO) » Sat Jun 27, 2020 10:54 am

Post by GuiltyLion »

In post 555, UNOwen wrote:Regarding your reads list, for me it is the other way around and it is the way JT has been dancing around DoctorPepper that makes me wonder.
I am seeing that too, I agree the asking "how confident are you" question was pretty bad. I'm having a hard time figuring out exactly what I think the associative between TTJT and DocPep is, whether it's T-S in either direction or S-S. I can find evidence a few different ways but nothing that feels conclusive to me, and assuming there's scum involved then there's likely some intentional manipulation being attempted as well. That's why I'm basically just ready for a flip.
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Post Post #557 (ISO) » Sat Jun 27, 2020 12:17 pm

Post by WaltertheDunce10 »

In post 556, GuiltyLion wrote:
In post 555, UNOwen wrote:Regarding your reads list, for me it is the other way around and it is the way JT has been dancing around DoctorPepper that makes me wonder.
I am seeing that too, I agree the asking "how confident are you" question was pretty bad. I'm having a hard time figuring out exactly what I think the associative between TTJT and DocPep is, whether it's T-S in either direction or S-S. I can find evidence a few different ways but nothing that feels conclusive to me, and assuming there's scum involved then there's likely some intentional manipulation being attempted as well. That's why I'm basically just ready for a flip.
I agree
VOTE: 13JT
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Post Post #558 (ISO) » Sat Jun 27, 2020 12:55 pm

Post by MiniMegabyte »

Jeez... I’ve missed a lot let me catch up with it all
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Post Post #559 (ISO) » Sat Jun 27, 2020 1:14 pm

Post by TheThirteenthJT »

In post 415, 72offsuit wrote:@ Ydrasse: are you going to ISO anyone else?
Any particular reason for who you DID choose to ISO so far?

The interpretation of me on Dps lynch has remained since before I started I would intent to hammer. I gave him a deadline to convince me otherwise. Once I'm done with what I'm doing right now I'll decided who to vote for. I really don't know at this point. Like I said I think we are making mistake either way but whatever. I'm preaching to the chorus at this point.


Anyways If you decide to vote me again like I said give a chance to defend myself before hammering. This is what I mean going for the safer option when we are now less than 24 hours and have three wagons going.

Mini and Walter for me are my top. Mini is the safest because we get rid of a slot that has not contribution.

With how hard everyone's been pushing I personally feel like scum would have just backed off during the end of the day phase. It makes no sense for them to drive a lunch at this point if they know their target will flip town due to the backlash that would fall.
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Post Post #560 (ISO) » Sat Jun 27, 2020 1:55 pm

Post by DoctorPepper »

In actually super pissed off at this "return from V/LA was a joke push" simply because you're using a real life reason to push me as scum and the only reason I didn't do a week long V/LA because it would have been unreasonable for the game state

We are lynching 72. End of story. Get with the program
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Post Post #561 (ISO) » Sat Jun 27, 2020 1:58 pm

Post by DoctorPepper »

Post 547:

GL, do I understand that townies can be frustrated with an inactive player? Sure.

Can I tell the difference between well intentioned townies and scum playing in bad faith? Definitely

Had the push been based on better reasoning I'd gladly defend myself and work with the people accusing me. But this? This was frankly insulting.

Call it a coincidence but you guys started suspecting me on a real life workday and I woke up Saturday morning, where I had time. I feel like you're all claiming I didn't really care about
this game in particular
but that completely fails to consider that my V/LA and inactivity was actually
sitewide
and not game specific
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Post Post #562 (ISO) » Sat Jun 27, 2020 2:05 pm

Post by DoctorPepper »

In post 548, GuiltyLion wrote:
I find it hard to believe that you genuinely don't understand why a townie might be suspicious of your lack of involvement in the game today.
What should I be seeing in 72's case that makes me realize he is scum pushing you and not town (correctly) identifying you as scum?
TBH, you can go tomorrow when we red flip 72.

This post is bad because I've explained multiple times that I didn't care if 72 pushed me for inactivity. I'm pissed because his push both misreps my meta to pursue a flimsy meta case against me and uses my actual site wide inactivity to explain me coasting in the game.

Your argument implies that his case is convincing when the meat of it is I am acting the same way I did when I was scum in Newbie 2000 when in reality none of my play is alignment indicative. In fact, if we
really
have to go there, my meta reads most similar to Open 779

You're all claiming I got active today because I was backed into a corner. In reality I just
had enough time today
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Post Post #563 (ISO) » Sat Jun 27, 2020 2:12 pm

Post by DoctorPepper »

In post 553, GuiltyLion wrote:
I can see where you're coming from, but remember that we have fewer than 2 days until deadline. There's not enough time for us to sit back and build wagons "organically", I completely understand why a townie who thinks he's caught scum would want to push it pretty hard.
The way you use your language implies that 72
is surely town
and I
am surely scum
which honestly is a horrible take because it assumes 72's case against me is bulletproof and warranted enough reason to jump from TTJT to me.

When in reality his case was in bad faith and just bad overall

Maybe it's because he didn't really want TTJT to be lynched? Idk possible scum motivation was scum theater to distance until someone "scummier" came along and picked me

You all messed with the wrong townie.
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Post Post #564 (ISO) » Sat Jun 27, 2020 2:21 pm

Post by DoctorPepper »

On Ydrasse's 552

Ydrasse, 552 has solidified my town read on you. My big deal is that I did jump from people suspecting me because they're reasons are inherently scummy. That was a good starting point.

I haven't fully read the pages from when I stopped reading (page 11) vs when my horrible push started. So my scum reads are based on those bad pushes. If I had to pick other potential scum, I don't wanna pick Mini just because of inactivity, but I town read almost everyone else.

But UNowen brought up a great point re: JT. I originally thought the "I'll hammer after 24 hours" was basically a way to avoid no lynch, which I do as town and I have hammered people I didn't think was scum for the sake of a lynch. I didn't realize he could be avoiding responsibility for my inevitable green flip. This was solidified when he wouldn't take a stand with me and 72 and would rather lynch Mini, a lynch that would not help game state. Why are you not willing to "take a stand" now but you were willing to hammer me? Brings some clarity to my 72/JT read
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Post Post #565 (ISO) » Sat Jun 27, 2020 2:22 pm

Post by DoctorPepper »

On Ydrasse's 552
[spoiler=Ydrasse, 552 has solidified my town read on you. My big deal is that I did jump from people suspecting me because they're reasons are inherently scummy. That was a good starting point.

I haven't fully read the pages from when I stopped reading (page 11) vs when my horrible push started. So my scum reads are based on those bad pushes. If I had to pick other potential scum, I don't wanna pick Mini just because of inactivity, but I town read almost everyone else.

But UNowen brought up a great point re: JT. I originally thought the "I'll hammer after 24 hours" was basically a way to avoid no lynch, which I do as town and I have hammered people I didn't think was scum for the sake of a lynch. I didn't realize he could be avoiding responsibility for my inevitable green flip. This was solidified when he wouldn't take a stand with me and 72 and would rather lynch Mini, a lynch that would not help game state. Why are you not willing to "take a stand" now but you were willing to hammer me? Brings some clarity to my 72/JT read][/spoiler]
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Post Post #566 (ISO) » Sat Jun 27, 2020 2:24 pm

Post by DoctorPepper »

Okay I don't know how to use a Spoiler tag. But points stands

TL:DR - understand why Ydrasse isn't confident that I only scum read players who suspect me but it's because it's in bad faith. Have an inkling on 72/TTJT because I town read everyone else (except Mini because no content) because I didn't like his stand on me and 72, despite being okay to hammer me specifically
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Post Post #567 (ISO) » Sat Jun 27, 2020 2:26 pm

Post by DoctorPepper »

I'm willing to work town here on any lynch aside from 72 but it would be more fruitful if I could work with you to lynch him, because honestly if you keep both of us alive tomorrow we will not cooperate. It was such a horrible push in such bad faith that I cannot see the town motivation in him and would rather get my flip or be flipped trying.
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Post Post #568 (ISO) » Sat Jun 27, 2020 2:28 pm

Post by DoctorPepper »

In post 519, 72offsuit wrote:I'm not sure you;re scum, but your zero cooperation and scummy as return from VLA makes me think you are.
This game reads nothing like your previous town game and much more like your previous scum game.
You don;t even consider for a moment that GL and I are town and simply say, hurr durr, scum is on my wagon,
This was such a bad response to my 516 challenge. If you were absolutely certain I'm flipping red today, you
should
be okay with being tomorrow's lynch when I flip green because you're soooooo confident in your crappy push.
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Post Post #569 (ISO) » Sat Jun 27, 2020 2:47 pm

Post by TheThirteenthJT »

I don't understand you guys on the point of me not wanting to take a side being scum motivated. I believe 72 has been a driving force day one and do feel him moving on from to go after DrPepper was town motivating I'm trying to see a reason against this. I've also hated the points on Drpeppers inactivity when he's clearly stated multiple time tHroughout the game the work has been killing him. I ask him to clarify whether he was disinterested or just lacking on time and he stated he posting more because of time. I believe him here.

If you want me to take a stance VOTE: 72offsuit because after weighing both side I will edge with him as scum over DrPepper. Mostly due to his push on dp being Ill fated and refusing the evidence that Drpeppers activity ahs directly correlated with his vla.

Once last attempt here to drive the lynch away from both of them. What's our game plan if either DrPepper or 72 is lynched?

I want you to tell me how this could possibly not ruin our game if they are both town? We would want to go over tHe other and potEntially mislynch tWice in a row. (Like I said I think it's ways to risky for scum to drive a lunch so late in the day). If one is scum great, more than likely I'm in the chopping block next based on today's wagons. Now if they are botH scum well played because I doubt we would ever vote both off. Too big of a Gambit in my opinion.
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Post Post #570 (ISO) » Sat Jun 27, 2020 2:51 pm

Post by DoctorPepper »

This is mafia, take risks.

Unless 72 is a god-tier scumhunter (which he needs to step up because his case on me was horrible) or an overpowered town role, we can survive on the off chance that he was a misguided townie. But that is highly unlikely
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Post Post #571 (ISO) » Sat Jun 27, 2020 2:51 pm

Post by TheThirteenthJT »

And if it's isn't clear I am voting between the two due to deadline at this point (72 edge dp as scummier.) and everyone's refusal to just get rid of the inactive slot. A slot were we won't be able to ISO well day 2 and may get another replacement. But if that's what we want than whatever.

I just want to make this clear because apparently everything I do is scum motivated and it can't possibly be me as town doing things town motivated. Because the entire argument I've seen on me is "This doesn't seem town motivated" or "This seems scum motivated."
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Post Post #572 (ISO) » Sat Jun 27, 2020 2:53 pm

Post by TheThirteenthJT »

In post 570, DoctorPepper wrote:This is mafia, take risks.

Unless 72 is a god-tier scumhunter (which he needs to step up because his case on me was horrible) or an overpowered town role, we can survive on the off chance that he was a misguided townie. But that is highly unlikely
My play has always been safe over sorry. It's hard to shake off.

I especially have felt going safe because this game for me has just been unlike any previous do to how little time I had this day and how much pressure I received. As scum I welcome the pressure but as town it drives me mad. Here I am trying to play my normal game and things just felt overwhelming.
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Post Post #573 (ISO) » Sat Jun 27, 2020 4:43 pm

Post by MiniMegabyte »

To be quite honest I am really confused with what is happening
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Post Post #574 (ISO) » Sat Jun 27, 2020 4:53 pm

Post by Micc »

.
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