Micro 955: Variant Nomination Mafia (Game Over)

[Raya36]

Raya:

You've said you're not confident in your D1 reads and that there is "very little chance of getting a good enough read D1 to confidently say someone is a strong town read or a strong scum read". How do you feel about the people who have pronounced strong reads so far in the game? I've developed some fairly strong reads of my own, but I have yet to express them as bluntly as others. Should be evident, though. This'll help;

I have no problem with others getting strong reads. I don't think D1 reads are very dependable but I generally assume when someone during D1 states they have a strong read they mean they have a strong read for D1.

The comment I made was more a personal one from my own experience. That's why I would prefer a more random nominator to gain info from them. But all the same to me if we choose a general scumread to be the nominator. My main concern there is that the scumread would be incorrect (hence my comment on D1 accuracy) and there would be a bias towards lynching the scumread nominator.

I guess to sum it up I think D1 we should choose the nominator to gain info rather than choosing someone we want to lynch. If the person we nominate is town then chances are the consensus scumread will be one of the nominated players anyway.

[Nahdia]

Nominator Vote 1.01

Raya36 (1):

DkKoba

hellbooks (1):

Yukino

Varsoon (1):

hellbooks

DkKoba (1):

Varsoon

Not Voting (3):

Nash, Raya36, Dunnstral

With 7 players alive, it takes 4 to decide a nominator via majority.
Deadline is in (expired on 2020-07-06 10:16:51), at which point the nominator will be decided via plurality.
With no clear plurality, the mafia team will privately break any ties.

[Raya36]

I'll come back soon with some reads instead of mainly just mechanics

[Yukino]

I'll come back soon with some reads instead of mainly just mechanics

I will await your return, what are your thoughts on the Koba and Varsoon interaction so far?

[DkKoba]

DkKoba - I think we're on different pages about what you were doing. I'm talking about you putting stock into the whole 'confirmed players who haven't posted = scum' thing. You townreading Yukino for that logic also doesn't make sense to me, but I'm less critical of that.
You might not like my methods, but I don't know most of you or how you play. I'm trying to parse that, since I don't have meta knowledge to really determine what's baseline town or scum play for any of you.

why does having a townread on yukino not make sense?

[DkKoba]

im drunk and i wanna PLAY. who is around

[Varsoon]

I'm always around.
I don't see the logic you're laying out for Yukino being town based on that post.
Paying such hard attention to confirms/signups strikes me as someone extra excited to begin--that sort of excitement in a game that hasn't begun is usually indicative of an interesting role; the only interesting roles in this game are scum.
Coming in with an out-of-game rationale / argument around posting for someone definitely being scum between only two players isn't the sort of thing I'd expect town to propose, either.
So I don't understand why you'd read that act as a town act.

[hellbooks]

ive been away from computer whole day (because of moving house logistics) but ill make a longer posts when im free

[Yukino]

I'm always around.
I don't see the logic you're laying out for Yukino being town based on that post.
Paying such hard attention to confirms/signups strikes me as someone extra excited to begin--that sort of excitement in a game that hasn't begun is usually indicative of an interesting role; the only interesting roles in this game are scum.
Coming in with an out-of-game rationale / argument around posting for someone definitely being scum between only two players isn't the sort of thing I'd expect town to propose, either.
So I don't understand why you'd read that act as a town act.

I mean I have the bias of knowing why I am particularly engaged in this game. Being a returning player, I am on an alt to avoid certain people. Honestly I quit for that reason over anything to do with the game itself. Lots of people put in incredible amounts of effort as a VT in theme games where there is an expectation to at least be a power role. I don't think a 2013 user would not realize that?

I think so many variables outside the game can make someone excited for a game, player lists, moderators, general desire to play the game and the list goes on. You haven't seen anyone pay so much attention to confirmations before? That's why leaving games open and bolding who confirmed fell out of favor because people like to read into it maybe on my part doing so is in poor taste but I won't choose to ignore things in front of me. Why pay so much attention to specifically whether or not someone got a scum role pm to determine excitement? To some degree I could see that as a perspective slip being you were excited to see one yourself. Or your thoughts right now just tend to be incredibly linear to come to certain results, which isn't how I tend to see town approach the game. Right now you're the one asking questions in your engagement so I am trying to get myself into your head right now.

Am I just naively disrupting your attempt at pressure right now? Is their a level of nuance to why you don't like that sequence went over my head? Or some other third variable that is making me misunderstand what is going on? I am just trying to look into your head right now and I don't really understand why your pushing this point.

The same applies for Raya, I think a lack of day 1 confidence is incredibly standard. And it's very early to call her out on not trying to develop day 1 reads when she is commenting on other aspects of the game before she gets the ball rolling. Other players are also playing relatively slowly she just happens to be the one that overtly said it. Why her over Hellbook or Dunnstral being players who are just going with the flow. I preferred Raya's take because it showed a level of emotion and frustration with her own play in it while Dunnstral and Hellbook are more or less just hiding in the back lines right now.

[Raya36]

At the time of my confirmation 5/7 confirmed.
Meaning 1 player confirmed and decided not to post.

I think that indicates scum being in Varsono and Hellbook

As I mentioned before I think this is towny but incorrect.

To clarify, my stance is:

We are free to nominate whoever on day 1 and lynch someone they choose, and maybe do the same on day 2, but after that (or even on day 2) we should nominate who we want to lynch

I agree with this stance and I think he is town for it.
On a similar note I think scum is most likely to push for the scummiest player to be nominator. Reason for that is it becomes more of a normal game of mafia at that point. Vote for the scummiest player, and how often does that player actually turn out to be scum D1? If they can steer the consensus towards a town member then there is already a bias for lynching them since as a group we voted them to be nominator because they're the scummiest.
On the other hand if we choose the towniest player to be nominator they have very little say in who is nominated and it's much more difficult to steer the lynch away from scum.
If we choose someone random for info that 1. gains town some info based on reactions etc and 2. takes power out of scums hands.

Thank you.
In that case, we've got 7 days to figure out a nomination so we should use this time instead of just bolting through it.
I also propose we take at least 48 hours after the execution phase begins before we come to a majority lynch.
Why don't you think people can actually come to a consensus D1? We've got the time to do so.
I agree that it's probably best to use the mechanic early and instead just lynch through nomination if we every hit MYLO/LYLO.

This is very town as well.

actually on second thought my d1 accuracy sucks and i might end up nominating just town take me out chief

At first I thought this was towny since naturally town would be ok with being/want to be nominated but then I remembered the whole high potential of lynching the nominator thing. So this could be an attempt to get out of being nominator while sounding towny.

Also not comfortable with how hard back you skirted when even the thought of being held accountable for D1 reads was brought up

This is exactly what I was thinking with Koba.

ah yes because I want to end up nominating 2 town and then end up having a TvTvT situation. of course varsoon. I'm acknowledging one of my shortcomings. and as for my read? nonsense labeling of "hedging". I'm just not willing to give out a full townread on someone's second post but it does warrant a hard townlean. is that post Town to you?

And this is overdefensive for what was said

Kind of a weak attempt at a town slip

@Dunnstral

Can you explain this a bit more?

VOTE: hellbook

I will vote hellbook now for my reasons mentioned in my last set of posts.

I think Nash has a really solid energy and aura to him so he has earned my first town read. I can pull up quotes and break this down further if someone would like.

@Yukino

Do you really think that's a scumtell? I mean I almost did it too. And not posting early game after confirming doesn't make you scum. There are so many factors. Any why not Varsoon?

>scum favor making attacks over town reads

Sounds like a mighty accusation there thats directed at me

I don't like how Koba took this personally. The post was about Nash and only about Nash. Nobody would have taken that as an attack towards Koba??


64 by Varsoon is towny as well.

I'll make it even clearer:
I'm of the mind there's at least one scum between DkKoba and Raya, given their play and positioning so far.

Well if this is the case it's Koba

raya: I'd rather keep to myself what I'm doing with this slot before I out anything.

I actually find statements like this to be quite towny.

I'm always around.
I don't see the logic you're laying out for Yukino being town based on that post.
Paying such hard attention to confirms/signups strikes me as someone extra excited to begin--that sort of excitement in a game that hasn't begun is usually indicative of an interesting role; the only interesting roles in this game are scum.
Coming in with an out-of-game rationale / argument around posting for someone definitely being scum between only two players isn't the sort of thing I'd expect town to propose, either.
So I don't understand why you'd read that act as a town act.

I disagree with this but I'll let Koba respond.
--nvm Yukino responded lol
to add to what they said I think the "confirmed and not posted = scum" is a bold statement for scum to make since it's sure to draw attention. Scum could not be more obvious about pulling a scumread up out of nowhere by doing that.


I honestly don't think Koba is scum despite the points I made. I think they're play is "too scummy to be scum" in a sense. Scum would probably be more guarded about how they play.
(I normally would jump at something D1 like how they have been playing and I'm always wrong and I think the reason above is why players like this D1 aren't scum.)

That said I want the D1 nominator chosen for info so VOTE: Koba

[DkKoba]

hello i am drunk and raya is definitely scum based on their last post.

[DkKoba]

i dont care if u nominate me bc its gonna be me vs u in either scenario so bring it on lmao

[Raya36]

Fine by me

[Raya36]

Why am I definitely scum though?

[DkKoba]

bc u sound like u are spewing lmao

[Yukino]

@Yukino Do you really think that's a scumtell? I mean I almost did it too. And not posting early game after confirming doesn't make you scum. There are so many factors. Any why not Varsoon?

Ok I'll be serious since we have a thread now and real content to work with. I was doing it to apply pressure and create discussion. I think that tell points to scum to a very slight margin but it's more something I'd use to break a mental tie breaker between 2 players then an actual line of reasoning I'd use to outright kill someone. I still want Hellbook to post better content so I voted them but they seem to just be very disengaged so I doubt I am actually helping right now. Even not thinking that tell is as offensive as what I believe it to be, I've seen players use it many times so I don't get why Varsoon thinks it isn't reasonable I did it.

I am not voting Varsoon because I don't think pressuring him for that reason is productive, given he is engaging with the thread anyway pretty actively even at the time of that post.

[Yukino]

bc u sound like u are spewing lmao

Can you elaborate now or when you are sober?
I am not following what part of the post you are talking about.

[Raya36]

@Yukino Do you really think that's a scumtell? I mean I almost did it too. And not posting early game after confirming doesn't make you scum. There are so many factors. Any why not Varsoon?

Ok I'll be serious since we have a thread now and real content to work with. I was doing it to apply pressure and create discussion. I think that tell points to scum to a very slight margin but it's more something I'd use to break a mental tie breaker between 2 players then an actual line of reasoning I'd use to outright kill someone. I still want Hellbook to post better content so I voted them but they seem to just be very disengaged so I doubt I am actually helping right now. Even not thinking that tell is as offensive as what I believe it to be, I've seen players use it many times so I don't get why Varsoon thinks it isn't reasonable I did it.

I am not voting Varsoon because I don't think pressuring him for that reason is productive, given he is engaging with the thread anyway pretty actively even at the time of that post.

This makes me feel much better about you

[Raya36]

bc u sound like u are spewing lmao

Can you elaborate now or when you are sober?
I am not following what part of the post you are talking about.

I'm biased obviously but I don't know how I was spewing?

[Dunnstral]

I think I misread post 46, I thought dkkoba was looking at the votecount and pretending this was a 9 person game

[Nash]

VOTE: hellbook

I will vote hellbook now for my reasons mentioned in my last set of posts.

Just so you know, hellbooks was the last player to confirm. Not sure why no one pointed this out.

[Varsoon]

@Yukino:

To be fair, I was excited for gamestart due to the moderator and it's my first game in over a year.
All said, I'm also considering this from a moderator point of view, since I mod much more than I play.
If a player of mine was looking at player confirmation/posting in pre-game and trying to leverage that as an advantage, I'd think they're either:
1. Shortsighted and avoiding engaging with the rhetorical aspects of the game.
2. Trying to leverage something as a discussion point and potential rationale to push for a lynch, which is scummy.
I get the points made that coming in and doing something like that could put a target on you, which would be something scum would want to avoid, but making that as a counterargument is entirely the kind of WIFOM I'd expect from scum who realize the advantages of leveraging mechanical/setup rubbish against town. It's easy to take the position of "If someone calls me out, I can just say I was making an observation and potentially even fishing for scum to push me over it or lean into my faulty logic." I find that scum players will often deal with the unplayed moments as both defense and argument against others.

I could get more into it, but it's safe to say that if you've been on-site for awhile on your main, you're probably familiar with me and how unconventional my approach to the game can be. If you're not, well. That's how it is.
A lot of my play is informed by how I've seen others play while modding and through what feels right in the moment of play. I'm a very read-by-gut player. As much as I talk about meta, I also hold it to be only useful for informing one's approach and not really defining alignment, since I expect people to be cognizant enough of their own meta to play contrary to it.

[hellbooks]

I want to engage with the mechanic of the game rather than treating it like it doesn't exist.
Feels against the spirit of the setup to do anything else.

Very slight "self-consciousness" ping.

In my experience, WIFOM tends to favor scum.

Agree w this ftr: i think it makes far more sense to nom a townread in the early game and

consider

nomming scumreads later in the game to force their hand?

What a boring entrance, you can do better then that!

Sorry. here's my real entrance.

Hellbrooks: Can you comment a bit more on the gamestate and your thoughts on players so far?

ya sure sure... hm... wouldn't agree with townread on yukino or scumread on raya... well both trend a little null i think. your one post i highlighted is tonally kinda scummy. dkkoba maybe scum just off the tailend of 59 and 60, both not great. just let me chill a little bit tho.
83 liking yukino a bit now.

I actually find statements like this to be quite towny.

I

urge

caution on this!!!!!

Just so you know, hellbooks was the last player to confirm. Not sure why no one pointed this out.

Huh? i like confirmed immediately. i just didn't check the game thread. lol.

[hellbooks]

oreso people i just wanna hang LOL im straight up ignoring the mechanic and just voting who I want to get rid of.)

incidentally this is like

wild

Did you sign up to play a 5:2 mountainous nightless?

[hellbooks]

oh if you can vote the nominator then hmmm ya ok ok don't mind nominating the scumread actually no that's good i hadn't considered