New Rule: Replace the Word "Lynch" in Games

ISO · Post Post #625 (ISO) » Tue Jun 30, 2020 6:09 pm

In post 618, MariaR wrote:
In post 614, scotmany12 wrote:
In post 611, MariaR wrote:This is not a thread to attack people or their stances on the matter. If you have such strong grievances with a post or a user please use the report function. This thread is open for explanation and tame discussion. Let's keep it that way.
Calling people out for their racist beliefs is not attacking people.
If you believe someone has racist beliefs or is showing them please use the report function. Do not handle the issue here.

I think there has been an incredible amount of statements that could very well be racist but could also simply be misunderstanding or a knee-jerk reaction and aren't actionable either way. I also think that the train has very much left the station on this post as a place where racism is going to be discussed and the mod team is going to really make a big error if it is indeed official policy to now declare this post off-limits to that discussion far after the onset.

Zulfy · Post Post #626 (ISO) » Tue Jun 30, 2020 6:10 pm

In post 619, Psyche wrote:The people putting together nooses or otherwise publicly executing black people today are making "lynch" political.

Another good point

ISO · Post Post #627 (ISO) » Tue Jun 30, 2020 6:12 pm

In post 622, Dunnstral wrote:I don't like this. I get what you guys are trying to do with this, but it is misguided

To lynch is for a mob to kill someone, especially by hanging, for an alleged offense, with or without a legal trial. It has never had any racial connotations.

Reck, you're a social mod, and I barely see you playing mafia. You shouldn't be in this thread fanning the flames harder - You're implying that certain people are being racist.

I understand that things are getting heated here, but just because somebody has a different opinion, it does not make them a racist.

This isn't simply a mafia issue though nor was Reck speaking as a mod to my knowledge, so Reck being a social mod who doesn't play mafia often doesn't really have an impact on whether he can have a valid opinion on the matter and state it openly and comprehensively as a member of the site.

MariaR · Post Post #628 (ISO) » Tue Jun 30, 2020 6:12 pm

In post 620, scotmany12 wrote:
In post 618, MariaR wrote:
In post 614, scotmany12 wrote:
In post 611, MariaR wrote:This is not a thread to attack people or their stances on the matter. If you have such strong grievances with a post or a user please use the report function. This thread is open for explanation and tame discussion. Let's keep it that way.
Calling people out for their racist beliefs is not attacking people.
If you believe someone has racist beliefs or is showing them please use the report function. Do not handle the issue here.
Why can we, as a community, not publicly call out racists? Do we actually want them to be in this community?

Just because someone has a diffrent opinion does not make them racist, nor does anyone want a racist here. But considering this is a sensitive case just calling someone a racist/making the assumption in the thread is the wrong way to go about it.

VashtaNeurotic · Post Post #629 (ISO) » Tue Jun 30, 2020 6:13 pm

In post 600, Nero Cain wrote:I'm curious, who here is actually offended by the word "lynch"?

I mean I certainly don't like it. Also one of my friends who plays mafia elsewhere was asked about this, since well, they're black, and their response was as such:
"I’ve always been secretly uncomfortable with the term lynch
Actually not secretly
I brought it up in one of my first games"

So yeah, good change.

ISO · Post Post #630 (ISO) » Tue Jun 30, 2020 6:14 pm

In post 628, MariaR wrote:
In post 620, scotmany12 wrote:
In post 618, MariaR wrote:
In post 614, scotmany12 wrote:
In post 611, MariaR wrote:This is not a thread to attack people or their stances on the matter. If you have such strong grievances with a post or a user please use the report function. This thread is open for explanation and tame discussion. Let's keep it that way.
Calling people out for their racist beliefs is not attacking people.
If you believe someone has racist beliefs or is showing them please use the report function. Do not handle the issue here.
Why can we, as a community, not publicly call out racists? Do we actually want them to be in this community?
Just because someone has a diffrent opinion does not make them racist, nor does anyone want a racist here. But considering this is a sensitive case just calling someone a racist/making the assumption in the thread is the wrong way to go about it.

Which is all the more reason for a discussion to happen about whether their argument that seems racist actually is, rather than simply reporting them.

Zulfy · Post Post #631 (ISO) » Tue Jun 30, 2020 6:14 pm

In post 622, Dunnstral wrote:just because somebody has a different opinion, it does not make them a racist.

In post 628, MariaR wrote:Just because someone has a diffrent opinion does not make them racist, nor does anyone want a racist here

Having racist opinions makes someone a racist.

Nero Cain · Post Post #632 (ISO) » Tue Jun 30, 2020 6:16 pm

who has a racist opinion?

Dunnstral · Post Post #633 (ISO) » Tue Jun 30, 2020 6:17 pm

In post 631, Zulfy wrote:
In post 622, Dunnstral wrote:just because somebody has a different opinion, it does not make them a racist.

In post 628, MariaR wrote:Just because someone has a diffrent opinion does not make them racist, nor does anyone want a racist here
Having racist opinions makes someone a racist.

Just because somebody has a different opinion, it does not make them a racist. If you think somebody is being racist intentionally, that is a different matter. I'm not seeing that from what I've seen so far.

Pink Ball · Post Post #634 (ISO) » Tue Jun 30, 2020 6:17 pm

In post 441, Nero Cain wrote:Also its just a game guys.

ISO · Post Post #635 (ISO) » Tue Jun 30, 2020 6:18 pm

Nothing in this thread (except perhaps the Jam stuff) was so obviously clearly racist the mods could act on it without any further information. But a lot of posts here do not have that starkness. If the only option you, as a mod, are presenting is "report or leave it alone", that is going to leave a lot of statements that seem racist unchallenged and unacted on, as nobody will be allowed to delve further into the statement but also the statement, on its own, is not going to be something the mods will have the mind-reading ability to deduce motive from.

In post 632, Nero Cain wrote:who has a racist opinion?

Jam, for definite.

Aristophanes · Post Post #636 (ISO) » Tue Jun 30, 2020 6:18 pm

In post 621, Nero Cain wrote:
In post 607, Aristophanes wrote:I'm curious, does this actually matter?
kinda? like its "our" site for "us". In my mind, it would make
A LOT
more sense if the reason for the rule change is that the majority of the players actually didn't want the word lynch to be used. I also think that most players know that when we say "we want to lynch you" or "X has been lynched d1" our intent isn't racist. And I was just curious so eh?

In post 607, Aristophanes wrote:So who are people fighting this?
no one is? And if anyone was it's not gonna have any (or very little effect) I mean, I guess you could argue that Alysaa and ABR are fighting it but mods are gonna do what mods are gonna want.

That was supposed to be "why are people fighting this?" It wasn't intended to call out specific users, merely to highlight the absurdity of arguments for the word.

And sure, we may not be offended personally by it. But it has a high potential for that.

Like, maybe we can just put it in a content warning spoiler every time we mention it. We do that for suicide. We do that for eating disorders. We do that for so many things. If we are to keep a term like "lynching" on the site, it should exist withing a labeled CW box and be used in proper discussion. Just because you are not offended does not mean it is not offensive!

This is our site, and I want it to be an inclusive place where we can play a fun game (or play mafia) and not have the potential of alienation of users, new or old. I respect that this word has charged roots and should be left in the rearview. I think it is at worst a neutral change and at best will create a more positive and welcoming site environment. And I want that.

I could continue this and say that some people use the N word without any thought of the charged racial basis it holds. Is that right? Even if it doesn't offend the person talking?

Probably a better example is the R word. It is thrown around in circles liberally. But should it be?

Is it okay to say racist jokes as long as you don't hold hatred for the people you are telling them about?

Just because you don't hold a prejudice doesn't mean your words don't carry it with them.

MariaR · Post Post #637 (ISO) » Tue Jun 30, 2020 6:19 pm

In post 630, AniX wrote:
In post 628, MariaR wrote:
In post 620, scotmany12 wrote:
In post 618, MariaR wrote:
In post 614, scotmany12 wrote:
In post 611, MariaR wrote:This is not a thread to attack people or their stances on the matter. If you have such strong grievances with a post or a user please use the report function. This thread is open for explanation and tame discussion. Let's keep it that way.
Calling people out for their racist beliefs is not attacking people.
If you believe someone has racist beliefs or is showing them please use the report function. Do not handle the issue here.
Why can we, as a community, not publicly call out racists? Do we actually want them to be in this community?
Just because someone has a diffrent opinion does not make them racist, nor does anyone want a racist here. But considering this is a sensitive case just calling someone a racist/making the assumption in the thread is the wrong way to go about it.
Which is all the more reason for a discussion to happen about whether their argument that seems racist actually is, rather than simply reporting them.

I'm not arguing against that as long as we're not calling the user in question a racist so loosely. If we're going to make a serious conversation the words you're saying should match it. Calling someone racist is a very serious remark.

xRECKONERx · Post Post #638 (ISO) » Tue Jun 30, 2020 6:20 pm

In post 622, Dunnstral wrote:Reck, you're a social mod, and I barely see you playing mafia. You shouldn't be in this thread fanning the flames harder - You're implying that certain people are being racist.

as someone that has cared about this site for a long time that still wants to see it be better, i have every right to be here. what you see me doing doesn't matter to me.

ISO · Post Post #639 (ISO) » Tue Jun 30, 2020 6:21 pm

In post 633, Dunnstral wrote:
In post 631, Zulfy wrote:
In post 622, Dunnstral wrote:just because somebody has a different opinion, it does not make them a racist.

In post 628, MariaR wrote:Just because someone has a diffrent opinion does not make them racist, nor does anyone want a racist here
Having racist opinions makes someone a racist.
Just because somebody has a different opinion, it does not make them a racist. If you think somebody is being racist intentionally, that is a different matter. I'm not seeing that from what I've seen so far.

Sure, but "I don't want to change the word I use in a forum game I play so I reject the notion this word is racially problematic" is a statement that could have a wide range of reasons behind it and many of them are, in fact, quite racist.

scotmany12 · Post Post #640 (ISO) » Tue Jun 30, 2020 6:22 pm

In post 637, MariaR wrote:
In post 630, AniX wrote:
In post 628, MariaR wrote:
In post 620, scotmany12 wrote:
In post 618, MariaR wrote:
In post 614, scotmany12 wrote:
In post 611, MariaR wrote:This is not a thread to attack people or their stances on the matter. If you have such strong grievances with a post or a user please use the report function. This thread is open for explanation and tame discussion. Let's keep it that way.
Calling people out for their racist beliefs is not attacking people.
If you believe someone has racist beliefs or is showing them please use the report function. Do not handle the issue here.
Why can we, as a community, not publicly call out racists? Do we actually want them to be in this community?
Just because someone has a diffrent opinion does not make them racist, nor does anyone want a racist here. But considering this is a sensitive case just calling someone a racist/making the assumption in the thread is the wrong way to go about it.
Which is all the more reason for a discussion to happen about whether their argument that seems racist actually is, rather than simply reporting them.
I'm not arguing against that as long as we're not calling the user in question a racist so loosely. If we're going to make a serious conversation the words you're saying should match it. Calling someone racist is a very serious remark.

This conversation is literally centered around a racist word

xRECKONERx · Post Post #641 (ISO) » Tue Jun 30, 2020 6:22 pm

also imagine thinking this is just about some stupid forum game at this point? like come on.

also i have not implied anybody is racist. not one of my posts. read better tbh.

Aristophanes · Post Post #642 (ISO) » Tue Jun 30, 2020 6:22 pm

In post 622, Dunnstral wrote:To lynch is for a mob to kill someone, especially by hanging, for an alleged offense, with or without a legal trial.
It has never had any racial connotations.

It does have a historically rasict connotation though. It has held one for a long time. You are wrong.
(Emphasis mine)

In post 622, Dunnstral wrote:I understand that things are getting heated here, but just because somebody has a different opinion, it does not make them a racist.

This is true and it is why I am trying to have a good faith discussion. I hope it is clear.

scotmany12 · Post Post #643 (ISO) » Tue Jun 30, 2020 6:24 pm

In post 641, xRECKONERx wrote:also imagine thinking this is just about some stupid forum game at this point? like come on.

also i have not implied anybody is racist. not one of my posts. read better tbh.

Just want to say...I have implied at least two people are racist

DeathNote · Post Post #644 (ISO) » Tue Jun 30, 2020 6:24 pm

In post 632, Nero Cain wrote:who has a racist opinion?

Anyone arguing that Lynching should stay because it has nothing to do with race.

Dunnstral · Post Post #645 (ISO) » Tue Jun 30, 2020 6:24 pm

In post 641, xRECKONERx wrote:also i have not implied anybody is racist. not one of my posts. read better tbh.

You have:

In post 551, xRECKONERx wrote:pro tip: not being racist or making people more comfortable by not using potentially problematic words isn't political! if you think it is, you're wrong!

In post 561, xRECKONERx wrote:cancel mafia if we can't LYNCH PEOPLE with our NOOSES

Dunnstral · Post Post #646 (ISO) » Tue Jun 30, 2020 6:25 pm

In post 644, DeathNote wrote:
In post 632, Nero Cain wrote:who has a racist opinion?
Anyone arguing that Lynching should stay because it has nothing to do with race.

That's not a racist opinion.

Nero Cain · Post Post #647 (ISO) » Tue Jun 30, 2020 6:26 pm

In post 635, AniX wrote:Jam, for definite.

but that's not who Scott was talking about.

In post 636, Aristophanes wrote:not have the potential of alienation of users

but by removing the term "lynch" we've already lost ABR and potentially Alyssa.

DeathNote · Post Post #648 (ISO) » Tue Jun 30, 2020 6:26 pm

Yes it is. The opinion is that Lynching has nothing to do with race which is racist as Lynching has everything to do with race.

Aristophanes · Post Post #649 (ISO) » Tue Jun 30, 2020 6:27 pm

In post 633, Dunnstral wrote:
In post 631, Zulfy wrote:
In post 622, Dunnstral wrote:just because somebody has a different opinion, it does not make them a racist.

In post 628, MariaR wrote:Just because someone has a diffrent opinion does not make them racist, nor does anyone want a racist here
Having racist opinions makes someone a racist.
Just because somebody has a different opinion, it does not make them a racist. If you think somebody is being racist intentionally, that is a different matter. I'm not seeing that from what I've seen so far.

This is sonewhat misguided. Just because the rasicm is not active does not mean it does not exist. Calling it out and educating the person is the only way to change this. Ignorance is not an excuse. And willful continuation after being confronted, called out, educated, etc is then actively racist.