Mini Normal 2148 (Post Game)

[Malakittens]

These are my feelings in somewhat in an order. It’s really hard to place some players {DP, N_M} due to lack of posts, but as a gut feeling that’s where I’m at. As for CSF/Maxwell I’m waiting for a bit more posting to help solidify my reads there. Maxwell brought up a good point in regards to Bob.

Town -> scum:

GC, CSF, DP, HK50, Bob, Maxwell, N_M, Dunn ,Vot

[maxwell]

How the hell are you not giving stungun's slot a town pass when you have them as your second highest townread? Why is DoctorPepper a townread when you've literally never mentioned them before now? What is this list?

[Malakittens]

How the hell are you not giving stungun's slot a town pass when you have them as your second highest townread? Why is DoctorPepper a townread when you've literally never mentioned them before now? What is this list?

It wasn’t in the greatest of order. I don’t have a good read as mentioned on DP. His posts haven’t swayed me one wya or the other. In past experience DP was a transparent player. So it’s odd that I don’t have anything on him yet.

Sg waffled more then I wanted him to do so. I also didn’t like him lining up lunches. He very well could be a town player because I was getting T/T when Sg v GC.

[DoctorPepper]

Actually why am I above N_M? N_M consistently harped on BM/Porkens and it didn't feel like a bus.

[DoctorPepper]

1642.

Vot, if you feel like Dunn was town and it's a counterwagon, why am I town despite me being vote parked there for the entirety of day 1?

[Green Crayons]

Mala, weren't you V/La for several days on D1?

I think that's where the you've been missing feeling is coming from.

[Green Crayons]

So I’m thinking that one of his scum partners might be someone he mentions quite often. I know he mentions Vot a lot, along with Dun.

I'm not sure why this is necessarily true? The logic seems very arbitrary.

It looks like an associative tell.

I don't think I agree with it, but it's not really arbitrary.

[Green Crayons]

Spoiler: first volley of interesting BM posts

I'll catch up later, but for now:

VOTE: HK 50 - biggest wagon and he appears to have a horrible post restriction and needs to be put out of his misery.

I'm bored and people love ambitious plays on Day 1, so I'm gonna go with:

Green Crayons, Malakittens, Notscience and HK50 for scum.

OMGUS Malakittens? what is your reaction to my posts?

at this rate I might actually have to explain my vote to get things moving...

ugh. BM might be silly enough to throw in a scum buddy in his list of town suspects. If so, I'm going to say it's HK, since he made a point of voting HK and this the Mala/BM interaction looks genuine.

But honestly I'm leaning this to being all town.

-----

Spoiler: more BM + HK or Mala interaction

I'll catch up later, but for now:

VOTE: HK 50 - biggest wagon and he appears to have a horrible post restriction and needs to be put out of his misery.

[Definition:]

Efficiency: the ratio of the useful work performed by a machine or in a process to the total energy expended or heat taken in.

Known antonyms: Master Battle Mage

Damn robot needs re-programming again.

[Statement:]

The lack of actual discussion is making my circuits moderately irritated. There cannot be ruthless slaughter like this.

VOTE: Dunnstral

Master Battle Mage feel free to explain the basis of your read.

Excellent, I thought you'd never ask!

Green Crayons Notes

He has played extremely safe and cautious, not really going out on a limb on anything, and only really focussing on either highlighting people's towniness, or criticising other's arguments for people's scumminess (which is generally easy for scum to do because they know who is actually scum). In his first 18 posts (all of them prior to my vote) he hadn't indicated suspicion of ANYONE. His only vote was a random vote on Farside - I know it was random because he made it very clear by saying "eenie meanie minie mo". The only other thing of note is that his 4th post was an apology (which incidentally was the thing which pinged me into doing an ISO) for being rude...only he hadn't really been that rude? by the standards of this site, it was about as courteous as a criticism gets. So the apology just seemed a bit OTT and like he was walking on eggshells. No meta yet, but an absence of town enthusiasm or active engagement - more of the commentating from the sidelines style.

OMGUS Malakittens? what is your reaction to my posts?

I’m trying to figure where your head is at with self voting and the woe is me with the other posts. IDK the last set of posts are just coming off strange.

The whole “I’m going to do a guess” doesn’t really strike me as a real case/vote.

Then why don’t you vote me and actually get a case? I’m not scared.

Yeah I can dig that, I'm a strange cat too, just having fun!

My suspicion on you isn't based on much, I was only playin'...but it's a good memory jogger for later so I can go back and see what pinged me if useful, and I like to get stuck in and get some reactions.

Your reaction for instance...is a bit defensive? "vote me and actually get a case? I'm not scared."?

I listed you as an initial speculative solve (and if you paid any heed to my "woe is me" post, you'd recognise that my reads monumentally suck), so I don't know if this is over-keen town ready to do battle, or scum mobilising prematurely? Not sure on that right now...

Hm. I really did just like HK 137. But I want to see how that progresses

That post has a bad gut feeling, but will wait for redemption

[Interrogation:

Master Malakitten, you have made several posts showing a stance without explaining it nor fully committing to it. Please explain your pings. Has the interaction with master bob3141 reached a finite conclusion read wise considering you town ping both of us?

Right now I’m liking bob’s posts. The way he’s going about is very similar to the last game we played together. I’m starting to see you scum hunting while you’re using your gimmick. A lot of players that use gimmicks hide behind it and don’t actually scum hunt. So that give me town pings.

Where as Battle Mange is the post I was referring to that felt a scum ping IMO. That’s way before he even thought I was OMGUSing him.

Battle

Mange

? Ouch! No saucer of milk for you today...

idk, i just don't see this as scum talking to one of his buddies

[Green Crayons]

Spoiler: BM's first vote after GC

As a new day broke out, Jake was found dead... asleep. Despite the wailing of the town to do his job, he stayed still all the same. Micc, the secretary, didn't do Jake's job for him, but instead woke him up.

Vote Count 1.6

Dunnstral (4):

DoctorPepper, farside22, HK 50, Green Crayons

HK 50 (2):

votato, bob3141

votato (2):

Malakittens, stungun0404

notscience (1):

geraintm

Malakittens (1):

Dunnstral

Battle Mage (1):

Not_Mafia

Green Crayons (1):

Battle Mage

Not voting (1):

notscience

---

Mod Notes:

Majority is 7 players.

Day 1 has begun and will end in (expired on 2020-06-22 07:23:04).[/area]

And then here's the updated VC:

Dunnstral (4):

DoctorPepper, farside22, HK 50, Green Crayons

HK 50 (1):

votato,

votato (4):

Malakittens, stungun0404, notscience, bob3141

notscience (1):

geraintm

Malakittens (1):

Dunnstral

Battle Mage (1):

Not_Mafia

Green Crayons (1):

Battle Mage

At which point BM votes votato:

Votato votes are lazy. I bet one of y'all are scum.

Challenge accepted!

VOTE: Votato

I like the meta analysis by stungun, clearly nobody is getting behind Green Crayons, and I think I'm townleaning Dunnstral. And seriously, voting BM on Day 1? This dude has run out of ideas...

That gets us to here:

Vote Count 1.7

votato (5):

Malakittens, stungun0404, notscience, bob3141, Battle Mage

Dunnstral (4):

DoctorPepper, farside22, HK 50, Green Crayons

Battle Mage (2):

Not_Mafia, votato

notscience (1):

geraintm

Malakittens (1):

Dunnstral

Not voting (0):

---

Mod Notes:

Majority is 7 players.

Day 1 has begun and will end in (expired on 2020-06-22 07:23:04).[/area]

So before BM voted votato, there was competing Dunn and votato wagons--both at 4 votes.

BM deicded to vote votato.

votato more likely to be town.

I think this is NAI about anyone else on the votato-wagon (Mala, stun ns, bob).

EITHER Dunn OR someone on the Dunn-wagon more likely to be scum (DP, farside/max, HK, GC).

[Green Crayons]

EITHER Dunn OR someone on the Dunn-wagon more likely to be scum (DP, farside/max, HK, GC).

I'm a bit ambivalent about this, actually.

not about votato more likely being town.

[Green Crayons]

His vote on votato looks made up.

First, his vote:

Votato votes are lazy. I bet one of y'all are scum.

Challenge accepted!

VOTE: Votato

I like the meta analysis by stungun

, clearly nobody is getting behind Green Crayons, and I think I'm townleaning Dunnstral. And seriously, voting BM on Day 1? This dude has run out of ideas...

He reads votato as scum only because of your meta analysis. But your meta analysis specifically said it was a wash on alignment, and so wasn't AI:

While you may be fairly active in some of your scum games, this evidence does not suggest that in your town games you are always lurking at the start.

Thus, I don't think this initial analysis into your gameplay is very alignment-indicative, as it seems you are breaking pattern regardless of alignment.

So his votato vote pushes a wagon based on nothing AI. He does get in a sweet "lol ooOooOooOoo I'm teasing you with maybe I'm scum" jab, which is more likely to come from scum than town.


Then, this continued vote despite:

i have a little but i cant talk about it. by day 2 or 3 ill probably give some more details. as for the association you're drawing between me and dunn, stun, you're right that we aren't scumbuddies, but i dont think your reasons why are all that strong. plus the only reason you know that is cuz you and i are scumbuddies.

shit wrong thread.

Last time I saw something like this it flipped town, but what can ya do!?

He points to non-player-specific meta that would suggest that votato is town. But just lols over it and keeps his votato vote. His decision to pick and choose "meta" to justify whether votes should move is particularly glaring when you consider he uses meta a few posts later in Post 403 to argue votes on Dunn are misplaced.

oh also

lol

okay votato is town y'all

[Green Crayons]

Spoiler: BM and Dunn

[quote="In post 189, Battle Mage"]

VOTE: Dunnstral

This looks serious...what's the story here?[/quote]

In other news, I've decided HK 50 is actually town, and figured out the most likely reason why Green Crayons voted Dunnstral. So that's something!

^^^ I don't see how that makes farside town. It does strengthen Dunn being scum.

I felt the way I felt. I can't help my pings on players.

There should be more votes on Dunn too with your follow up spoilers post.


@NS: Who else are you suspicious of? I see a lot of filler coming from you but nothing stating a scum read. Or even following of anyone.
BM: Hey BM, how are you? Taking some lumps I see......would you mind voting Dunn and we can chat later about if you are scum or town and about play style later?
Thanks!!

Yep yep, usual fare!

I'm not so keen on Dunn
Maybe he's just not scum
Annie did tell me so
and scum is votato



I'm worried about this "play style" chat...are you gonna bash me too?

I don't want you to apologize, I want you to die

This is the only Dunnstral post that really townpings me, although his general tone is definitely one of not giving a crap and being abrasive which is more common in town than scum I think. Should be easy to meta later when I have more time.

I'm not so keen on Dunn
Maybe he's just not scum
Annie did tell me so
and scum is votato



I'm worried about this "play style" chat...are you gonna bash me too?

I don't want you to apologize, I want you to die

This is the only Dunnstral post that really townpings me, although his general tone is definitely one of not giving a crap and being abrasive which is more common in town than scum I think. Should be easy to meta later when I have more time.

does anyone else see a contradiction here?

re: 353 - you're definitely clutching at straws now dude.... there are some good reasons for lazyscum to vote me out there, but that?

re: 353 - you're definitely clutching at straws now dude.... there are some good reasons for lazyscum to vote me out there, but that?

you say "im not keen on the dunn wagon, so im not gonna vote there"
and then "i have no real reason to think dunn is town"

yep, I can help you here:

1. I have 1 reason to think Dunn is town, and 0 reason to think Dunn is scum, therefore I townlean Dunn.
2. There is no 2.

^^^ I don't see how that makes farside town. It does strengthen Dunn being scum.

I felt the way I felt. I can't help my pings on players.

There should be more votes on Dunn too with your follow up spoilers post.


@NS: Who else are you suspicious of? I see a lot of filler coming from you but nothing stating a scum read. Or even following of anyone.
BM: Hey BM, how are you? Taking some lumps I see......would you mind voting Dunn and we can chat later about if you are scum or town and about play style later?
Thanks!!

Yep yep, usual fare!

I'm not so keen on Dunn
Maybe he's just not scum
Annie did tell me so
and scum is votato



I'm worried about this "play style" chat...are you gonna bash me too?

Not a fun that 1 comment = town compared to his now lurking while votato takes pressure.

Your making me a sad puppy right now bm.

I'm sorry

I'll tell you what, if you join me in a righteous Green Crayons lynch today, we can lynch Dunnstral tomorrow. Pinky promise!

So I thought that BM's first point where he asks me what my Dunn vote is all about suggested Dunn is town--BM-scum is looking for real reasons to vote Dunn.

But then he changes Dunn to being town.

And then votes votato over the tied bandwagon on Dunn.

And then has this weird way of explaining why Dunn is town.

And then promises farside a Dunn lynch in the future if they could just do a GC lynch.


Not looking good for Dunn.

ALL OF THAT SAID:

I saw battle mage playing similar to this as town.

And I saw Dunnstral playing completely different to this as scum.

Would scum meta each other to defend?


my goodness, maybe. i'm cringing just thinking of that possibility.

[votato]

1642.

Vot, if you feel like Dunn was town and it's a counterwagon, why am I town despite me being vote parked there for the entirety of day 1?

because of posts like this. again, my read on you is mostly sheep. i dont know you and your posts werent all that memorable. and i dont remember your push on dunn being the one that was off. it was more stun? who was the one who turned dunn into a counterwagon? pretty sure it wasnt you. i dont remember.

[Green Crayons]

Spoiler: Porkens enters the ring

All the players shall ever hear are the whispers of insanity, as insomnia takes hold...

Vote Count 1.14

Porkens (5):

Not_Mafia, Green Crayons, [Malakittens], bob3141, votato

Dunnstral (2):

DoctorPepper, HK 50

Green Crayons (2):

Porkens, farside22

HK 50(2):

Dunnstral, stungun0404

notscience (1):

geraintm

Not voting (1):

notscience

---

Mod Notes:

Majority is 7 players.

Day 1 has begun and will end in (expired on 2020-06-24 21:18:29).

HK 50 has been prodded and has (expired on 2020-06-24 05:39:29) to respond before I look for a replacement.

Malakittens is V/LA for (expired on 2020-06-24 00:00:00) and has given their vote to notscience.[/area]

[quote="In post 1021, Porkens"]

Bob, i still scumread bm/clidd/pork. Just couldn't do much while the slot was vacant

Tato be a gem and explain why this slot is so universally scumread pls?[/quote]

HOKAY!
I skimmed the shit out of the last 17 pages or so, as it’s getting late.

Here’s the deal:

The scumteam lies within geraintm, stungun, dunnstral, bob, and tato.

The push on GC that tato hopped on was literally pure garbage. Reads progression somehow becomes machinations. And despite the fact that GC fairly fought off the push, it keeps recurring. Stun and gerain both defend dunnstral. Bob has a TR on Dunn for some reason (also bob almost never expresses any reads, never commits). Gerain started playing and came in at a key moment, around 623

That being said, I have a real tinfoil hat read on an alternate universe team of DP, GC, and Malkittens.

Other stuff:
Farside, Crayons (ignoring my hat), notsci, and HK all read very town to me. I don’t see a universe where hk is scum.

Notmaf is being very notmaf.

So there you have it, you are welcome, I’m going to bed!


VOTE: dunnstrall

looks like Porkens saw that he was on the chopping block, and made a case for a scum buddy to throw off the scent

tbf, I ran across my old posts talking about how Porkens' vote on Dunn looked made up

at the time I thought it was made up because he wanted the town to vote elsewhere to save himself from a town execution

now I'm thinking he was accepting his fate and was trying to throw the scent off from his buddy if Porkens flipped


HRM Hard to know which of those is correct

Spoiler: GC ego posting

HOKAY!
I skimmed the shit out of the last 17 pages or so, as it’s getting late.

Here’s the deal:

The scumteam lies within geraintm, stungun, dunnstral, bob, and tato.

The push on GC that tato hopped on was literally pure garbage. Reads progression somehow becomes machinations. And despite the fact that GC fairly fought off the push, it keeps recurring. Stun and gerain both defend dunnstral. Bob has a TR on Dunn for some reason (also bob almost never expresses any reads, never commits). Gerain started playing and came in at a key moment, around 623

That being said, I have a real tinfoil hat read on an alternate universe team of DP, GC, and Malkittens.

Other stuff:
Farside, Crayons (ignoring my hat), notsci, and HK all read very town to me. I don’t see a universe where hk is scum.

Notmaf is being very notmaf.

So there you have it, you are welcome, I’m going to bed!


VOTE: dunnstrall

HOKAY!
I skimmed the shit out of the last 17 pages or so, as it’s getting late.

Here’s the deal:

The scumteam lies within geraintm, stungun, dunnstral, bob, and tato.

The push on GC that tato hopped on was literally pure garbage. Reads progression somehow becomes machinations. And despite the fact that GC fairly fought off the push, it keeps recurring. Stun and gerain both defend dunnstral. Bob has a TR on Dunn for some reason (also bob almost never expresses any reads, never commits). Gerain started playing and came in at a key moment, around 623

That being said, I have a real tinfoil hat read on an alternate universe team of DP, GC, and Malkittens.

Other stuff:
Farside, Crayons (ignoring my hat), notsci, and HK all read very town to me. I don’t see a universe where hk is scum.

Notmaf is being very notmaf.

So there you have it, you are welcome, I’m going to bed!


VOTE: dunnstrall

And Mala's kinda right. It's time we start settling on a lynch, with 13 hours left in the day, and I don't think this day phase will go anywhere than Porkens, unfortunately.

Thus, VOTE: Porkens

Unless anyone has any reason to think this day phase could possibly lead to another lynch,

There is a 1 ONE vote difference between me and your biggest scumread but “unfortunately” that’s just insurmountable? Also, he says

nothing

about the substance.

VOTE: porkens

Consolidating at this point

Consolidate elsewhere, the idea that there can’t be any other lynch is false. Again, Dunn has 1 less vote than I do.


Lynching Dunn will tell us a lot. There are clear associativas. BM tarnishes this slot so badly what do you learn about anything? Keep me around you won’t regret it.

Did you actually say why Dunn is worth your vote here? I don’t think so.


Also tell me more about these “clear associatives” that would come with a Dunn flip.

Finally home from work and post office.

Thank you for the extra time all. In response to this:

<snip...>

Did you actually say why Dunn is worth your vote here? I don’t think so.


Also tell me more about these “clear associatives” that would come with a Dunn flip.

Dunn’s got a

very

good chance of flipping scum, and everyone has shared reads of him one way or the other, including a small group of defenders. That will tell us a lot.

I have a solid townread on HK and Dunn’s vote there is a safe non-starter, which I think he knows. His vote’s there, but he isn’t doing anything to make it happen, I’m guessing because he doesn’t really want to present an alternative to my mislynch, which seemed pretty certain after clidd ghosted.

Dunn’s commentary in 822 also rubs me the wrong way. He’s casting shade on GC (and tato) without actually challenging him. (I also TR GC. I can understand the scum read on BM, and even though it's wrong I read GC as scum hunting and the votes there really don't make much sense to me.)

Finally, he’s been active lurking and trolling all day.

-----

I'd be ok lynching votato, but it really won't tell us as much as Dunn.

Okay. I think you're scum.

I commend the pivot to hard reading me as town. I instinctively don't want to lynch someone who does that.

But I don't think this Dunn suspicion is natural. Dunn was tied for the second bw (with me, who also had 2 votes), and I think you decided to try to push and focus on Dunn because he already had some votes and he hasn't nearly been a pain in the ass like I have. I say that because I don't think your suspicions are legitimate.

For starters, you didn't give suspicions originally for your Dunn vote.

And now it comes down:

- to pushing a non-starter wagon on HK--but it's no more of a nonstarter than farside trying to vote GC, as stun is happy with both a HK and GC vote but nobody else is
- picking one post (that conveniently defends me) with an okay theory, but would need some plenty more work to be a banner case
- uses buzzwords "active lurking and trolling," neither of which I think are accurate; he hasn't beetlejuiced and he isn't a troll player


I'm also not convinced that Dunn gives us great associative tells any more than other players who have been the thread's topic of conversation. You're pretty nonspecific on that point, which I admit is generally NAI, but I would think that if this was legitimate point you would have *some* specific examples in mind.

VOTE: Porkens

[votato]

ok GC. ill sheep that to vote dunn. i think that makes sense (including with your VCA) and implicates the scumteam as {BM/clidd/porkens, dunn, mala}.

VOTE: dunn

[votato]

also for those looking for posts where i pushed BM, GC just quoted a bunch of it for your reading pleasure.

[Green Crayons]

Spoiler: Porkens and bob

HOKAY!
I skimmed the shit out of the last 17 pages or so, as it’s getting late.

Here’s the deal:

The scumteam lies within geraintm, stungun, dunnstral, bob, and tato.

The push on GC that tato hopped on was literally pure garbage. Reads progression somehow becomes machinations. And despite the fact that GC fairly fought off the push, it keeps recurring. Stun and gerain both defend dunnstral. Bob has a TR on Dunn for some reason (also bob almost never expresses any reads, never commits). Gerain started playing and came in at a key moment, around 623

That being said, I have a real tinfoil hat read on an alternate universe team of DP, GC, and Malkittens.

Other stuff:
Farside, Crayons (ignoring my hat), notsci, and HK all read very town to me. I don’t see a universe where hk is scum.

Notmaf is being very notmaf.

So there you have it, you are welcome, I’m going to bed!


VOTE: dunnstrall

The scumteam lies within geraintm, stungun, dunnstral, bob, and tato.

part one is relationship between geraintm and stungun early day. There's a little banter, a little theory craft, and a little distancing. It connected them in my mind.

part two is stungun's terrible case on GC, which votato said "I AGREE VOTE" because it was in his favor to do so.

part three is Dunn does squat all day.

part four is that Stun and Gerain both (and fairly uniquely) defend (not just townread) Dunn. (bob is scummy on his own and also hops on the Dunn TR team)

part five is that Gerain only really started to play when Dunn was the leading wagon, and argued strongly against it at the expense of stungun. later, when Dunn was no longer likely to be lynched, grerain changed his stungun read to town.

It's a wide net, and I'm certain to be wrong on 2, I could even be wrong on 3, but I'll eat my hat if I'm wrong on 4 - there is two scum in this pile. Dunn is the worst of them.



p. edit it was just my read - you two had early beef it seemed to me, I thought you were scum reading him, nd then he called you town at some point. Since then things seem to be cool between you. very possible I'm reading too much into it.

Porkens makes a scum pool of: geraintm, stungun, dunnstral, bob, and tato

In the first post he says bob is in the pool because "Bob has a TR on Dunn for some reason (also bob almost never expresses any reads, never commits)."

In the second post he says bob is in the pool because "(bob is scummy on his own and also hops on the Dunn TR team)"


bob's just sort of thrown in there and forgotten about. If Dunn isn't scum with Porkens, I would think it's bob. nebulous "other" scummy suspicions.

Though, actually, if Dunn is scum bob is likely town. If Dunn flipped scum, Porkens had a basis to argue for a bob lynch (the only articulated reason why bob is scummy is him TRing Dunn).


FWIW I think this scum pool and the reasons for it confirm stun/cat and votato as likely town

[Green Crayons]

okay i caught up on my ISO reads of the Porkens slot

VOTE: Dunn

I'm fine with this vote for now. I'd also be okay with a bob vote.

I should also go and ISO Dunn and Bob and actually reread the shift to gerain in full and not by ISO, but I've only got so much stamina to reread mafia each night

[Green Crayons]

ill sheep that

^5

[votato]

id prefer no bob vote. out of dunn/bob, dunn is the scum, im quite certain. or im bad at mafia, which is a realistic possibility. i think dunn/mala is the solve and i dont think i want to lynch anywhere else today. i could maybe go for stungun.

[maxwell]

Still very bothered by votato's read progression on BM and his explanation really doesn't make sense or track with what he actually did, but Green Crayons raises some good points. I wasn't confident scum would so blatantly support each other like they did in early game, had dunnstral as town largely on tone, my experiene with him is that cryptic one-liners are basically what to expect, but on a reread of his iso it's very notable he attacked Not_Mafia very hard for his push on battle mage.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Dunnstral

[votato]

Still very bothered by votato's read progression on BM and his explanation really doesn't make sense or track with what he actually did, but Green Crayons raises some good points. I wasn't confident scum would so blatantly support each other like they did in early game, had dunnstral as town largely on tone, my experiene with him is that cryptic one-liners are basically what to expect, but on a reread of his iso it's very notable he attacked Not_Mafia very hard for his push on battle mage.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Dunnstral

this feels like a bus. hmm.

[maxwell]

Nah. Just a re-assessment.

[DoctorPepper]

Oh this is back on?

VOTE: Dunnstral

I feel like this is comically my gimmick already

[votato]

that should be L-2. unless there were people already voting dunn (majority is 6), but i dont think there were.