Changes to Normal Games (update September 2022)

[TemporalLich]

Tagger is the null investigative because it gets an investigation result that says nothing beyond it being an investigation result.

You'd know whether you succeed or fail, but not much more.

[implosion]

I finished my last academic obligation for the quarter today and so I have a full week of time to actually do things - expect an update within a week, just making sure everyone in the NRG has time to give last feedback.

[Umlaut]

I actually agree with conceptualizing Tagger as an investigative role: it's the simplest or least discerning possible investigative, with only one possible result (not counting "no result" as a result).

I'm second-guessing the name though, because it's a bit too close to Tracker and because tagging sounds like doing something

to

the tagged player, marking them or something. I don't love the Fruit names either because they imply a relationship to Fruit Vendor that I don't think is really there (how can I connoiter fruit from someone who doesn't have any?). I'd want something that implies a sort of "checking-in" that just verifies the person could be found. Spotter?

[TemporalLich]

I think

Checker

would both mean that and also indicate it is a simple investigative (the simplest possible role investigative - the null investigative).

[callforjudgement]

I like the name Checker because it works on a lot of different levels. (Here's one that hasn't been mentioned yet: in Poker, a "check" is a zero-sized bet, used to fulfil the functions that betting normally fulfils but without actually risking any poker chips. In the same way as a check in poker is the simplest possible bet, a check in Mafia is the simplest possible investigation.)

[Datisi]

ok hear me out

Echolocator

[TemporalLich]

Also note the null investigative can be quite an interesting role when modified... a Town Loyal null investigative is basically a discount Cop who can't tell the difference between a guilty and a No Result.

[Umlaut]

Checker is good too. The PM results of "You spotted/failed to spot X" are a bit more natural and flavorful than "You checked/failed to check X" but that's a minor thing.

[implosion]

And here's the update! There are three new modifiers and three new roles being added to the whitelist.

Modifiers:

Roaming: you may not target any player more than once.

Personal: your action will not interact in any way with factional abilities. For instance, a personal watcher cannot see a mafia or serial killer's kill; a personal PT cop would not detect mafia members whose only private topic is their factional topic; and so on.

Lazy: your action will fail if there is only one non-town player alive at the start of the night phase. Note that this is checked at the start of the night, so for instance, a lazy cop could still get a successful result even if a vigilante kills one of two remaining scum during the night.

Roles

Checker: target a player. You will receive a result of either "You successfully checked [player]" if your action succeeds, or "You failed to check [player]" if your action fails for any reason.

[role]-finder: target a player. You will receive a result indicating whether or not that player is [role], or you will be told that your action failed. This includes modified roles and multiroles; for instance, a cop-finder would get a positive result on a cop, a macho cop, or a fruit vendor cop.

Role watcher: target a player. You will receive a list of all roles that target them, or you will be told that your action failed. This ability sees roles, not actions; so, for instance, if a loyal cop targets someone, this role would say that a loyal cop targeted them. If a doctor fruit vendor protected someone, this role would say that a doctor fruit vendor targeted them, but would not be able to tell whether they were protected or vended to. If they are targeted by multiple copies of the same role, this role will see all of them; for instance, if someone is neighborized by two different neighborizers, a result PM could look like "PLAYER was targeted by {Neighborizer, Neighborizer}". If someone is targeted by a vanilla role (this should only be possible with the mafia factional kill, unless I'm forgetting something), then this role would see they were targeted by a "vanilla" (not a vanilla townie or a mafia goon). It interacts with roleblocks and such the same way as other tracker-like roles (so it cannot detect a blocked role's action). Ninja actions can't be seen by this role.

[Umlaut]

Thanks for the updates!

Would a Tracker-Finder (for example) get a positive result on a JOAT one of whose abilities is tracking, or only on someone whose role name includes the word "Tracker"?

If someone is targeted twice by the same player at night (say there's a Mafia Multitasking Roleblocker who both roleblocks and kills them) will that player's role appear once or twice in the Role Watcher's results?

[TemporalLich]

Thanks for the update.

1. Is a Role Tracker (target a player, if they successfully act and aren't a Ninja you will learn their role, if not you will be told you didn't see anything, if your action fails you will get No Result) not a thing?

2. Is a Finder-Finder a possible role? If so, does it get a positive result on say a Combined-Finder?

[Umlaut]

"Yo dawg, I heard you like Finder-Finders so I made you a Finder-Finder-Finder so you can find your Finder-Finders while they're finding your Finders."
^ role PM for my next game

[implosion]

A quick note: role watcher shouldn't detect ninja actions. Changed it to say that.

Would a Tracker-Finder (for example) get a positive result on a JOAT one of whose abilities is tracking, or only on someone whose role name includes the word "Tracker"?

I'm not certain what the best formalism is here, I'll get back to you after consulting with the NRG.

If someone is targeted twice by the same player at night (say there's a Mafia Multitasking Roleblocker who both roleblocks and kills them) will that player's role appear once or twice in the Role Watcher's results?

Once. They see it for each player that targets them, not for each action, similar to how a watcher would only see the player once.

1. Is a Role Tracker (target a player, if they successfully act and aren't a Ninja you will learn their role, if not you will be told you didn't see anything, if your action fails you will get No Result) not a thing?

There was discussion of role tracker, but it's too similar in practice to a rolecop to be worth it.

2. Is a Finder-Finder a possible role? If so, does it get a positive result on say a Combined-Finder?

"finder" isn't a role, but you could have a cop-finder-finder, I suppose. I'm not sure if it'd be okay to have a role-finder-finder for general roles, since "role-finder" isn't a role... the idea that this is a modular role isn't new, but there aren't many of them (only other one off the top of my head is enabler). Will also ask NRG what they think here.

[TemporalLich]

Another question about the minutiae of the Finder role... I assume a Neighbor-Finder gets a negative result on a Neighbor Enabler and someone added to a neighborhood by a Neighborizer, as neither have the Neighbor ability written in their roles.

[implosion]

Correct!

[Fwesnid]

Would a Tracker-Finder (for example) get a positive result on a JOAT one of whose abilities is tracking, or only on someone whose role name includes the word "Tracker"?

It should under the thought process that a Joat is equivalent of a "1-shot Tracker 1-shot Vigilante 1-shot Doctor" or similar.

How do the finder and role-watcher interact with UB's and other back ups?

[TemporalLich]

Will "Superstar" (can have the mod confirm that they are a Superstar, basically an IC without the I) ever be a Normal role?

I mean it probably doesn't have much use besides being impossible to fakeclaim, but it's another "null" role to consider adding.

[callforjudgement]

What's the benefit of null roles, besides modWIFOM?

We normally want Normals to be about playing versus the other players, not trying to see inside the mod's head.

[TemporalLich]

actually yeah, good point CfJ... if it's enough of an interesting role (to make claims a little more interesting) it's alright, if not then it's pretty much a Named role with a mod reveal.

[Gypyx]

Hey, I was wondering, why is vanillaiser considered not normal?

(like, i've read the conversations about it but i don't think anyone has said an answer about that)

[callforjudgement]

There are two considerations. The more minor one is that it effectively creates a role change effect (whether you use the hidden-vanillaise or Announcing variant), which is outside the space that Normals normally play in. The more major one is that if a setup actually wants a Vanillaiser, it is probably too complex to be a Normal and would work better as a Theme. (In Mafia hands, even giving them a Roleblocker tends to require a lot of town power to balance it; a Vanillaiser would require still more to balance, and at that point you're getting into role madness territory. In town hands, Vanillaiser isn't particularly broken but it's hard to see much design utility for it; if you're going around removing negative abilities then that's getting into Theme territory, if you're removing positive abilities then you have a setup where scum have powerful roles and town can somehow figure this out and yet not be able to lynch them for some reason, which is also Theme territory.)

[Gypyx]

First point :
Well, although it's kind of a stretch, enabler / backup are roles that make your role change through the course of the game

And then, i think that a very gated scum vanillaiser wouldn't be so bad (like, night 1 or night 4)
And town could use it to remove power "just in case" from suspicious VT claims, i don't think there's a need for scum to be OP for vanillaiser to exist
(Like :
Tracker
Vanillaiser
5 VT
Vs
Mafia night 2 rolecop
Mafia 2-shot ninja
Seems like a fine setup to me, at first glance)
so that's fine for both sides imo


Anyways, i'm totally fine with vanillaiser staying abnormal, but if it were to be normalized, it would have to be the announcing variant i think

[Ythan]

Is this a good place for normalcy questions?

Does combined apply only to active abilities with targets? How for example would a combined cop doctor commuter work under the normal guidelines?

[Gypyx]

Quoted from the wiki :

A Combined role necessarily performs all of its constituent actions on the single player it targets each night.

If you had two self-targeting abilites, like : Combined Activated Miller Activated Bulletproof, that would work imo

[Gamma Emerald]

Would activated miller be normal, even? I recall getting voted out a game for claiming that at one point.